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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

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5 hours ago, Nick907 said:

Here’s my current list. It is a beta strike list with shooting that averages 59 damage per turn (before saves and rerolls) but can potentially do 178 damage per turn. Also can repair up to 24 damage per turn as well.

*settle the grudges, always take what you are owed, without our ships we are naught 

General: Endrinmaster w/dirigible, endrinprofessor, phosphorus bombs

Ironclad w/hull plates, volleycannon

Gunhauler w/cannon x2 (1x with torpedo)

Endrinriggers (3 man, ranged weapons) x 7 

Thunderers (rifles, garrisoned, 10 man)

Grundstock Escort Wing battalion 

Only one hero? You auto-lost a sizable portion of scenarios 

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I love ships!  I posted earlier about a ship heavy list... Now with the points drop I thought I would revisit.  I know this may not be the most competitive, I just love the ships. 

 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin

Leaders
Endrinmaster with Endrinharness (100)
Endrinmaster with Endrinharness (100)

Battleline
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
Arkanaut Frigate (220)
Arkanaut Frigate (220)
Arkanaut Frigate (220)

Units
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (480)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 132
 

 

Thoughts?  

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14 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Only one hero? You auto-lost a sizable portion of scenarios 

Which is a bummer cause KO heroes dare singularly lacking in excitement. 

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I remember, in times of yore, when you could double the attacks of riggers, and then grapnel them anywhere across the battlefield.

 

Alas, such wonders are lost to us in these dark days.

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5 hours ago, stratigo said:

I remember, in times of yore, when you could double the attacks of riggers, and then grapnel them anywhere across the battlefield.

 

Alas, such wonders are lost to us in these dark days.

Haha although I loved the challenge of playing KO a year ago... The new book was the rising of new sun.

but there have been a lot of cool rules removed in the recent tomes. Like the boss claw on the brute champion for example. That was such a cool and thematic ability. That’s gone. Our grapnel hook, dwarven shieldwall, etc. I’m happy I don’t have to grumble for a bonus anymore but a lot cool but not really efficient rules have been removed. 

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5 hours ago, stratigo said:

I remember, in times of yore, when you could double the attacks of riggers, and then grapnel them anywhere across the battlefield.

 

Alas, such wonders are lost to us in these dark days.

100% agree but It was the only fun thing that we had.

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6 hours ago, Kramer said:

Haha although I loved the challenge of playing KO a year ago... The new book was the rising of new sun.

but there have been a lot of cool rules removed in the recent tomes. Like the boss claw on the brute champion for example. That was such a cool and thematic ability. That’s gone. Our grapnel hook, dwarven shieldwall, etc. I’m happy I don’t have to grumble for a bonus anymore but a lot cool but not really efficient rules have been removed. 

I mean I laid out the new KO book next to the new Tzeentch book and went "What the hell is GW thinking" and just didn't bother getting back into the game.

 

I have all kinds of salt over the fact that pretty much any given KO unit is better in Tempest's Eye than in KO (Rerolling all hits or wounds once per game is less good than consistently having plus 1 hit and wound and the ability to add 1 attack), and that they took away the handful of key buffs we used to have, but OBR can sit there with their bone daddy and hand out plus one attack to their entire army from pretty much anywhere across the board.

GW has been super conservative with rules for KO ever since the thunderer fiasco of the very first release, seemingly afraid of making them too OP. But they haven't been nearly as restrained with a lot of other books.

I'm hoping with the points decreases combined with nerfs for all the top performers, KO can finall be somebody. But I also have a fear that the only way to compete is, once again, in the hands of the zilfin clown car being the poor man's changehost, and that's a point a stress that GW can nerf with one FAQ.

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1 hour ago, stratigo said:

I mean I laid out the new KO book next to the new Tzeentch book and went "What the hell is GW thinking" and just didn't bother getting back into the game.

 

I have all kinds of salt over the fact that pretty much any given KO unit is better in Tempest's Eye than in KO (Rerolling all hits or wounds once per game is less good than consistently having plus 1 hit and wound and the ability to add 1 attack), and that they took away the handful of key buffs we used to have, but OBR can sit there with their bone daddy and hand out plus one attack to their entire army from pretty much anywhere across the board.

GW has been super conservative with rules for KO ever since the thunderer fiasco of the very first release, seemingly afraid of making them too OP. But they haven't been nearly as restrained with a lot of other books.

I'm hoping with the points decreases combined with nerfs for all the top performers, KO can finall be somebody. But I also have a fear that the only way to compete is, once again, in the hands of the zilfin clown car being the poor man's changehost, and that's a point a stress that GW can nerf with one FAQ.

Okay, lot of fair points. But you are also just picking the most broken thing and going 'well, my book aint as broken.' That's an issue with Changehost, an issue with Kroak, possibly an issue with Teclis. 

I like it. I don't want to be the brokenly the best. That's a FAQ nerf waiting to happen, fully agree there. Give me an army that on list building can go 3-2 and by playing well do better. But that's of course personal. 

But hopeful news, Cinderfall GT was won by @Khron today.  

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3 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Okay, lot of fair points. But you are also just picking the most broken thing and going 'well, my book aint as broken.' That's an issue with Changehost, an issue with Kroak, possibly an issue with Teclis. 

I like it. I don't want to be the brokenly the best. That's a FAQ nerf waiting to happen, fully agree there. Give me an army that on list building can go 3-2 and by playing well do better. But that's of course personal. 

But hopeful news, Cinderfall GT was won by @Khron today.  

Being stuck on lockdown leaves me with limited means to test it, but on paper the zilfin clown car strat seems REALLY strong. You're delivering a lot of shots and a good amount of durability right in the opponent's face in a way that is reminiscent to a change host. Not as good because, well, of course not. But it's still a strong strategy, and may even be OP. Which is why I worry about it being nerfed later, and maybe dragging some extra nerfs into, say, thunderers.

 

GW also has a..... mixed track record of fixing broken AoS armies. If you think OBR or tzeentch are leaving top tables, you've got another thing coming. Tzeentch itself is probably going to dominate hard still. And I do remember the last time that tzeentch persisted through a year straight of nerfs without seemingly caring as it demolished tournament after tournament. And it's never been unable to compete at the top even through all those nerfs that eventually gave room for other armies to succeed.

 

DoK still post up like 60 percent winrates despite hitting the tables megahot and getting nerfs because of how strong they were. They remain something you can take to a tournament and win with more than, like, a CoS army. 

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On 8/1/2020 at 8:51 PM, Entombet said:

I just got second place on 1200p turnament.

https://tabletop.to/merfolk-turniej-charytatywny

Admiral and with Rune of Mark, interesting! Did war wound proved useful? Between bought CP, battalion and focus fire ability what were you using those CP on?

Merfolk, that`s shop in Pruszków right? I ordered some things from them year ago.

19 hours ago, stratigo said:

I remember, in times of yore, when you could double the attacks of riggers, and then grapnel them anywhere across the battlefield.

 

Alas, such wonders are lost to us in these dark days.

Shame that we don`t have some good melee capabilities, I would gladly sacrifice some shooting or points.

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Yeah this list won't make you many freinds:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin

Leaders
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (190)
- General
- Command Trait: Great Tinkerer
- Artefact: Staff of Ocular Optimisation
Aether-Khemist (90)
- Artefact: Spell in a Bottle

Battleline
3 x Skywardens (100)
3 x Skywardens (100)
3 x Skywardens (100)
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 1x Grapnel Launchers

Units
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Debtsettler' Spar Torpedo
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (120)
- 1x Aetheric Fumigators
15 x Grundstok Thunderers (360)
- 3x Aetheric Fumigators
- 3x Decksweepers
- 3x Aethercannons
- 1x Grundstok Mortars

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (480)
- Main Gun: Aethermatic Volley Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word

Battalions
Grundstok Escort Wing (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107

4 drops, good chance of choosing priority but it shouldn't matter. Use the Zilfin footnote to move the IC (with x15 thunderers and Khemist), Endrinmaster and x2 units of skywardens on the weakest enemy flank. Drop WLV in the middle of your apponents army. Gunhaulers move up in support, destroy the flank you've just moved on or cripple every unit, they won't be able to retreat through the WLV neither will your apponent be able to provide support with the rest of his army. 

I expect this will get nerfed, they'll probably add a note to say the IC can't be used with the Zilfin footnote.

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My version of the list went full 20 thunderers in the iron clad with supporting characters and then frigates with arkanauts in a squadron.

 

The issue is that I can't choose between the spell in a bottle khemist or the special flair navigator. I think WLV gets over valued a lot. Most of the top armies don't really struggle dispelling things, so you're spending 80 points on something that may only trigger once. I considered the geminids on top of like a fumigator and khemist to have a bubble of minus 3 to hit, but I'm not sure 3 inches is really enough space for that to work and fumigators are truly awful to try and magnetize. Only arm that's in two parts. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Most of the top armies don't really struggle dispelling things, so you're spending 80 points on something that may only trigger once.

At least two times:
-When summoned.
-After each movement phase.

Btw, a 20 thunderers Ironcald won the Cinderfall GT!!! Congratz!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Edited by Beliman

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Well these point cuts are a breath of fresh air. 
 

Loondrinmaster

loondrinmaster 

attack squad battalion. 

frigate-cannon

frigate-cannon

arkos x 10

arkos x 10 

gunhauler- drill 

gunhauler- drill

gunhauler- drill 

endrinriggers x6- shooting

endrinriggers x6-shooting

endrinriggers x3-shooting. 
 

1990 points. Built to play objectives, doesn’t have many eggs in any one basket, decent amount of shooting, hopefully. 
 

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Some people in our KO group are talking about the famous Ventplates and we had some issues:

Emergency Ventplates: Once per battle, at the start of the enemy shooting phase, you can say that the bearer will use their Emergency Ventplates. If you do so, subtract 1 from hit rolls for attacks that target the bearer or any friendly unit wholly within 6" of the bearer.

First one is eazy, KOs armies can activate the Ventplates at the start of the shooting phase, but when Emergency Ventplates goes off? It seems that it's permanent.

Second question is a bit more tricky because it has a FAQ that wasn't aimed for the Ventplates:

Q: If I use an ability that allows a unit to do something in the hero phase as if it were a different phase, can I use abilities that could affect it in that phase in the hero phase? For example, if I was allowed to make a shooting attack with a unit in my hero phase as if it were my shooting phase, would an ability that allowed me to make an extra attack with that unit in my shooting phase apply?
A: No to both questions. Abilities that state they can only be used or only apply in a certain phase can only be used in that phase and/or their effects will only apply in that phase. So, if an ability says you can use it in your movement phase, it can only be used in your movement phase, or if an ability said it applied in your shooting phase, you can only apply its effects in your shooting phase, and so on.

Are the Emergency Ventplates affected by the bold part? If that's the case, the Emergency Ventplates could only be applied in the shooting phase but I'm not sure that "at the start of the enemy shooting phase" is the same as "you can use it in your X phase" (I'm not an english speaker btw).

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Hey, would you have some strong lists for doubles with unknown Ally ? Do you think an Ironclad is worth playing in this format ?

Thanks !

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Are the Emergency Ventplates affected by the bold part? If that's the case, the Emergency Ventplates could only be applied in the shooting phase but I'm not sure that "at the start of the enemy shooting phase" is the same as "you can use it in your X phase" (I'm not an english speaker btw).

I already tried writing response to your question 3 times, hey its complicated, and still I will get it wrong probably🙂 So step by step my thinking:

It needs FAQ at this point

-QA you posted references initially situation with ability affecting out of order actions

-However it responds with something that can be taken as general rule, and when taken taken in context of game as a whole certainly makes sense

-The thing is that you are using ability when it is required ie. at the start of enemy shooting phase

-It just doesn`t have END condition like most abilities have, which can lead to conclusion of it`s indefinite time scope once activated

So to answer only question you bring up, I think this QA doesn`t affect Ventplates. It activates correctly, the question is however about it`s time scope not whether it is activated in right phase.

Let`s continue my musings:

-But if it`s indefinite why activate action is written into it?

-It activates in shooting phase, but it`s written as defense vs. all attacks not only missile ones

So we have few possibilities here:

1. It was intended to give defense vs missiles for one turn

2. It was intended to give defense vs missiles AND melee for one turn

3. It was intended to give defense vs missiles from activation point onwards

4. It was intended to give defense vs missiles AND melee from activation point onwards

Writing activation into rule and it`s effect in terms of power suggests that 3 & 4 aren`t intended, and I personally wouldn`t play them that way. Still on RAW you could argue for that outcome, I think it wouldn`t be fair though.

So to reapeat myself:

It really needs FAQ at this point

Guys what`s mail to faq team?

 

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I cant say Ive ever had these cross my radar when using ventplates. 

My feeling is that when you first read a rule you typically get the rules meaning as it was intended. But if you pore over it a lot it can start to get misconstrued. When I read ventplates I just thought cool, smoke launchers (from 40k).

I've always done it as just for that shooting phase which has always seemed decent enough. The start of phase part is to force you to declare it before you know what they will shoot, otherwise it could be a bit strong if you can declare it after they declare targets. 

The only thoughts Id had on it was whether it should be able to be done out if a ship or not. Then again if you couldnt do it out of a ship I probably wouldnt use it.

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1 hour ago, Boar said:

Guys what`s mail to faq team?

AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

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1 hour ago, Boar said:

So to answer only question you bring up, I think this QA doesn`t affect Ventplates. It activates correctly, the question is however about it`s time scope not whether it is activated in right phase.

Thanks for the answer  @Boar and @Rahxephon!!

The second question isn't about the duration of the Emergency Ventplates (that's the first question), it is about when the effect triggers: In every phase or just the enemy shooting phase.

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The whole ventplates discussion sounds to me more like a try to abuse poor rule writing. Not more and not less... deep in your heart you know what the intention of the artefact was ;)

And concerning those who still argue about too weak KO and too strong other armys, please guys wait and see the upcoming results. My big fear is, that KO in the right hands is already S Tier... e.g. a nerf to the usage of WLV for KO is really required. 

In my gaming group I already had to switch the army after like 10 games because no one wants to play against it because after T2 the game is over. 

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2 hours ago, Beliman said:

The second question isn't about the duration of the Emergency Ventplates (that's the first question), it is about when the effect triggers: In every phase or just the enemy shooting phase.

I think that`s actually relevant, as f.ex. for Volley Fire, generic command ability it is explicitly stated that it works until the end of phase. This suggest that lacking this qualifier ability works forever ie. in all phases.

Let`s look at answer from GW you bolded that I split in 2 parts below. First point was already covered (when ability can be activated), as per second in Ventplates description it is not stated in which phase those effects apply, so this part of answer doesn`t apply to Ventplates.

1. So, if an ability says you can use it in your movement phase, it can only be used in your movement phase,

2. or if an ability said it applied in your shooting phase, you can only apply its effects in your shooting phase, and so on.

 

3 hours ago, Rahxephon said:

AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

Thank you, I sent them my question, maybe others are pestering them about that too🙂

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3 hours ago, Zplash said:

The whole ventplates discussion sounds to me more like a try to abuse poor rule writing. Not more and not less... deep in your heart you know what the intention of the artefact was ;)

And concerning those who still argue about too weak KO and too strong other armys, please guys wait and see the upcoming results. My big fear is, that KO in the right hands is already S Tier... e.g. a nerf to the usage of WLV for KO is really required. 

In my gaming group I already had to switch the army after like 10 games because no one wants to play against it because after T2 the game is over. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't play with that artifact. The argument was floating around since early quarantine, it's not something new.

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