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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Talking about objectives and points, imo, we have some Auxiliary Objectives that seems to be hard to be denied:

-The Bait should be really eazy to achieve. I'm really thinking in just using Iron Sky Squadron and charge a low-dmg enemy unit defending an enemies objective.

-Seize Ground seems to be good too. You need to have a boat+crew+hero/baloon boyz and High Fly near a terrain in turn 4.

-Vengeful Counter seems good too. We have a lot of units that can't take a beating and we are good a taking out key units.

What do you think? Can we reliably score this objectives?

I have to disagree with esp. 2 of those:

-Bait requires destruction of your own unit (at latest in 3rd round) and we don`t really have many bodies as is

-Vengful Counter needs to happen in the same turn, it could be possible but i fear that would require too much decisions focused on this instead on winning major. Also same problem as Bait it requires destruction of our unit we shouldn`t strategize around that IMO.

I would go as far, as to say that I would never use those two.

Third one you mentioned ie. Seize Ground is quite good though, but still you would need to pick goal carefuly or it could force you into wrong position in battle (and it triggers at end of 4 round where it could simply be too late as battle would end earlier on time), good thing here is you just need one unit close and it doesn`t matter if enemy is also close. So maybe, but at tournament or game with time limit I think it wouldn`t be good due too time it triggers.

Ultimately we have too remember that all of those are for deciding draws, and if you focus too much on them you will have it harder in achieving major victory.

I honestly wish that there were no minor victory and secondaries were additional points to score, not just tiebreakers.

What works for us then in my opinion? Well:

-Assassinate and Headhunter are quite good. In first you need to kill hero chosen by your enemy - so this is best when all enemy heroes are important too them so it doesn`t matter much which they choose. Second requires killing all enemy heroes. We have firepower and mobility to do that reliably in many cases, question remains if doing so is best strategy in given encounter.

-Domination requiring destruction of 3 enemy units in one turn, can be chosen vs MSU, also Prey on the Weak which requires destruction of all enemy battlelines before end of battle can be good

-Cornered can be easy too achieve with our mobility

-Prized Possession could be interesting in some situations as we are not that reliant on heroes, and f.x enemy going after Khemist who already used Bottle instead of disrupting our main plan could be beneficial

 

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24 minutes ago, Boar said:

I have to disagree with esp. 2 of those:

-Bait requires destruction of your own unit (at latest in 3rd round) and we don`t really have many bodies as is

-Vengful Counter needs to happen in the same turn, it could be possible but i fear that would require too much decisions focused on this instead on winning major. Also same problem as Bait it requires destruction of our unit we shouldn`t strategize around that IMO.

I would go as far, as to say that I would never use those two.

Third one you mentioned ie. Seize Ground is quite good though, but still you would need to pick goal carefuly or it could force you into wrong position in battle (and it triggers at end of 4 round where it could simply be too late as battle would end earlier on time), good thing here is you just need one unit close and it doesn`t matter if enemy is also close. So maybe, but at tournament or game with time limit I think it wouldn`t be good due too time it triggers.

Ultimately we have too remember that all of those are for deciding draws, and if you focus too much on them you will have it harder in achieving major victory.

I honestly wish that there were no minor victory and secondaries were additional points to score, not just tiebreakers.

What works for us then in my opinion? Well:

-Assassinate and Headhunter are quite good. In first you need to kill hero chosen by your enemy - so this is best when all enemy heroes are important too them so it doesn`t matter much which they choose. Second requires killing all enemy heroes. We have firepower and mobility to do that reliably in many cases, question remains if doing so is best strategy in given encounter.

-Domination requiring destruction of 3 enemy units in one turn, can be chosen vs MSU, also Prey on the Weak which requires destruction of all enemy battlelines before end of battle can be good

-Cornered can be easy too achieve with our mobility

-Prized Possession could be interesting in some situations as we are not that reliant on heroes, and f.x enemy going after Khemist who already used Bottle instead of disrupting our main plan could be beneficial

 

Thanks for the answer!!
I was talking about tornaments, that's why I picked only 3 (they give points instead of deciding draws). I wanted to chose the most "good around corners" ones but they can be picked before every game. I think it's better to tailor a bit our Auxiliary Objectives like you said.

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Thanks for the answer!!
I was talking about tornaments, that's why I picked only 3 (they give points instead of deciding draws). I wanted to chose the most "good around corners" ones but they can be picked before every game. I think it's better to tailor a bit our Auxiliary Objectives like you said.

Ah, tournaments - then it also depends on Organizers what rules they have. I see that in GHB they wrote  example rules and you cannot take same auxiliary more than once in tournament, that would require more tought. So f.ex. in some battle you could see after set up that you don`t want to "use up" your better auxiliaries and use f.ex. Bait as that sacrifice wouldn`t be too detrimental in this matchup.

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Hi!

what do you think of the new rules of triumph (reroll of all the hits and no longer just failures, no more immunity to bravery ...) it's a big nerf of our aethergold ...

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7 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

reroll of all the hits and no longer just failures

I'm pretty sure that we had rerolls for Hit/wound/save and not just for failures before.

Btw, kill the Scinari Cathallar asap  if you are less than 18" away from her, believe me!

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Before the reroll was for the failed dices.
now it's all the throw that must be reroll when the triumph is used.

much less interesting

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13 hours ago, Beliman said:

I'm pretty sure that we had rerolls for Hit/wound/save and not just for failures before.

Btw, kill the Scinari Cathallar asap  if you are less than 18" away from her, believe me!

Teclis and Cathaller both need to die asap.

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On 7/14/2020 at 7:51 PM, Zplash said:

So the new scenarios with favoring battleline and heros a lot look like a little nerf to KO... Our Heros are so slow without embarked on boats and within boats they don't count for objective taking... 

Battline could be ok if you play bubble boys battleline or a skyport which gives you battleline which you already play in your list otherwise KO is more or less short on fast moving battlelines. 

Last but not least I thought the biggest push for us is the lose of realm artefacts especially the ethernal amulet but now after I've seen the chamon artefact "ignoring rend 1" it just feels like every monster will take that instead of ethernal amulet and than we are in the same position with our Rend 1 shooting hehe

Triumph reduction we already discussed as a small nerf. 

Still KO is very strong Armee in my opinion and I already have trouble to play them within my gaming group because most games are over in turn 2 or 3 and so far they didnt find the right strategy vs KO. I'll have to admit we don't have tzeentch, seraphon or Legion of chaos currently in our group. So vs the top meta we have to see how we will do. :)

What do you think about the changes in GHB2020 so far and the effect on our beloved Dwarfs? 

 

Actually, the Prime and spell caster cost reduction in SE opens a new way of playing for us, making our HQ sniping even more deadly. Imagine you get ever blazing comet + warp lightning + prime comets rod combo. It is average 8 MW output before someone can even move, which is scary for a lot armies. Though it cost a lot (300+90+100) but at least it can be handled as alley (100 for comet is not counted as alley points so 390 from SE). Also, if our points reduction come true, we all get around 120pts freed now.

 

BTW, I have played with some really experienced players with KO. Some matches are just completely hopeless. My impression is KO got very bad matches against most 'out of board deep strike + ranged' army. Typically Seraphon, SE with raptor, CoS living wood with iron drake. Also teleport + ranged army can ****** you up if they get fewer drops, like Tz and another lower drops KO.

 

Besides that, several bad match includes:

ID, their Ishlaen Guard makes our shooting completely useless

Orcs with revive boyz, just not enough fire power to stop them screen

Some niche list from Skaven and Fyre Slayer with heavy  'out of board deep strike + ranged'

Some other niche list focusing on -1 hit from range, like certain Ogre, DoK, SE with start dragon and Nurgle.

 

Generally speaking, I think KO plays a moderate role in the meta. It is efficient against some very popular enemy like Bonereaper, Realmlord, also extremely hopeless against some others. The reason why KO seems quite strong is, when a player knows very little about how KO works, they will lose so quickly against our gun line.   

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38 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

Before the reroll was for the failed dices.
now it's all the throw that must be reroll when the triumph is used.

much less interesting

Wording didn`t change from GHB 2019 (it was different in core rules). Still wording is you can reroll, and it doesn`t specify all rolled dice so IMO you choose what dice you reroll.

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51 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Teclis and Cathaller both need to die asap.

100% agree!! I don't know how to play vs Syar. 2+ save Teclis is a bit heavy imo, but I need more games to have a final judgement.

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7 minutes ago, Beliman said:

100% agree!! I don't know how to play vs Syar. 2+ save Teclis is a bit heavy imo, but I need more games to have a final judgement.

If you're not facing a GA Order Teclis with lots of cheap units and area Endless spells to deliver 40d3 MW per turn (his aura doesn't state the endless spells need to be controlled by enemies), I'd argue the Cathaller needs to die first. I really hate that warscroll. Widening the difference between having BS immunity and not, and killing through everyone's favourite mechanic, battleshock.

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1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

If you're not facing a GA Order Teclis with lots of cheap units and area Endless spells to deliver 40d3 MW per turn (his aura doesn't state the endless spells need to be controlled by enemies), I'd argue the Cathaller needs to die first. I really hate that warscroll. Widening the difference between having BS immunity and not, and killing through everyone's favourite mechanic, battleshock.

I think thatTeclis can't achieve 2+save (I think, maybe I'm wrong) in GA:Order.

But I completely agree with you in killing the Cathaller first, at least, it has 5 or 6 wounds and can go down eazy even with 2+save.

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2 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think thatTeclis can't achieve 2+save (I think, maybe I'm wrong) in GA:Order.

But I completely agree with you in killing the Cathaller first, at least, it has 5 or 6 wounds and can go down eazy even with 2+save.

Correct, he can't do that in GA Order, that's just needed to get a lot of aether wings to fuel the aura mw engine, a Frost phoenix can put him in a -1 to hit aura though. (Short summary: cast 4 endless spells that cover the area of your aura, have every unit roll to deal d3 mw to enemies, that's all. Be glad the Hounds just got dumped, that would be about 20d3 mw extra. Possible spells: Cogs, Horrorghast, Sousnare shackles, shards of Valaghar, even the Burning Head).

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Just now, zilberfrid said:

Correct, he can't do that in GA Order, that's just needed to get a lot of aether wings to fuel the aura mw engine, a Frost phoenix can put him in a -1 to hit aura though. (Short summary: cast 4 endless spells that cover the area of your aura, have every unit roll to deal d3 mw to enemies, that's all. Be glad the Hounds just got dumped, that would be about 20d3 mw extra. Possible spells: Cogs, Horrorghast, Sousnare shackles, shards of Valaghar, even the Burning Head).

Yep, I'm aware of this "exploit".  But that's not a problem in our community anymore  as our TO already ended this discussion saying that he interprets that "cast by an enemy Wizard" affects both "endless spell or spell".

So I'm just looking advise for just basic Lumineth games only.
 

1 hour ago, Iron Fist said:

Before the reroll was for the failed dices.
now it's all the throw that must be reroll when the triumph is used.

much less interesting

GHB2020 Inspired: Once per battle, when a friendly unit is picked to shoot or fight, you can say it is inspired. If you do so, you can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by that unit until the end of that phase.

GHB2019 Inspired: Once per battle, when a friendly unit is picked to shoot or fight, you can say it is inspired. If you do so, you can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by that unit until the end of that phase.

It has exactly the same wording of GHB2019. Attacks are made a one per basis (even if we are used to throww all of them), so we can reroll play like before. 

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12 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Yep, I'm aware of this "exploit".  But that's not a problem in our community anymore  as our TO already ended this discussion saying that he interprets that "cast by an enemy Wizard" affects both "endless spell or spell".

So I'm just looking advise for just basic Lumineth games only.

Ah, nice that a fix was placed. I'd state it would be "controlled by enemy wizard". Also, note that the endless spell in a bottle would not trigger with this wording, as it's not cast by a wizard.

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2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Ah, nice that a fix was placed. I'd state it would be "controlled by enemy wizard". Also, note that the endless spell in a bottle would not trigger with this wording, as it's not cast by a wizard.

Yes, we play like that!
We talk with our TO about the rules that are a bit ambiguous and we agree to always play with the same rules. Btw, I still think that a FAQ is needed.

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

GHB2020 Inspired: Once per battle, when a friendly unit is picked to shoot or fight, you can say it is inspired. If you do so, you can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by that unit until the end of that phase.

GHB2019 Inspired: Once per battle, when a friendly unit is picked to shoot or fight, you can say it is inspired. If you do so, you can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by that unit until the end of that phase.

It has exactly the same wording of GHB2019. Attacks are made a one per basis (even if we are used to throww all of them), so we can reroll play like before. 

https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf

page 8

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4 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

If you're not facing a GA Order Teclis with lots of cheap units and area Endless spells to deliver 40d3 MW per turn (his aura doesn't state the endless spells need to be controlled by enemies), I'd argue the Cathaller needs to die first. I really hate that warscroll. Widening the difference between having BS immunity and not, and killing through everyone's favourite mechanic, battleshock.

40d3 wounds, how?

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Entombet said:

40d3 wounds, how?

I will try to explain:

  1. Need Teclis with a lot of units near him (16"). Cast Chronomatic Cogs and activate them.
  2. The Cogs will affect all your units and the wording from Seeing Stone of Celennar rule ticks: "each time a friendly unit within range (16") is affected by Endless Spells or Spells casts by enemy wizzards roll a dice, on a 4+ you can ignore it. Then pick an enemy unit within 18" of that unit and gets hit b 1D3 mw.
  3. You can then remove the Coggs with Solar Flare and attempt to cast it with another mage for another round of MW.

The bold part is key because some people understand that "casts by enemy wizzards"  goes only with "Spells" and not "Endless Spells or Spells".

Edited by Beliman

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11 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I will try to explain:

  1. Need Teclis with a lot of units near him (16"). Cast Chronomatic Cogs and activate them.
  2. The Cogs will affect all your units and the wording from Seeing Stone of Celennar rule ticks: "each time a friendly unit within range (16") is affected by Endless Spells or Spells casts by enemy wizzards roll a dice, on a 4+ you can ignore it. Then pick an enemy unit within 18" of that unit and gets hit b 1D3 mw.
  3. You can then remove the Coggs with Solar Flare and attempt to cast it with another mage for another round of MW.

The bold part is key because some people understand that "casts by enemy wizzards"  goes only with "Spells" and not "Endless Spells or Spells".

The issue is, again, in phrasing.

It would be clear if it stated

"Spells or endless spells cast by enemy wizards"

"Endless spells, or spells cast by enemy wizards"

"Endless spells controlled by enemy wizards or spells cast by enemy wizards"

The current wording falls in the middle of the first two, nudging towards the second. The intended wording, in my opinion, is the third.

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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

The issue is, again, in phrasing.

It would be clear if it stated

"Spells or endless spells cast by enemy wizards"

"Endless spells, or spells cast by enemy wizards"

"Endless spells controlled by enemy wizards or spells cast by enemy wizards"

The current wording falls in the middle of the first two, nudging towards the second. The intended wording, in my opinion, is the third.

Good god, GW and their wordings strike again.

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That aelf mortal wound combo will be given the same treatment as our Thunderers were a month after they came out

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1 hour ago, Nick907 said:

That aelf mortal wound combo will be given the same treatment as our Thunderers were a month after they came out

I'd give it a bit longer. First move a few thousand boxes.

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15 hours ago, Beliman said:

I will try to explain:

  1. Need Teclis with a lot of units near him (16"). Cast Chronomatic Cogs and activate them.
  2. The Cogs will affect all your units and the wording from Seeing Stone of Celennar rule ticks: "each time a friendly unit within range (16") is affected by Endless Spells or Spells casts by enemy wizzards roll a dice, on a 4+ you can ignore it. Then pick an enemy unit within 18" of that unit and gets hit b 1D3 mw.
  3. You can then remove the Coggs with Solar Flare and attempt to cast it with another mage for another round of MW.

The bold part is key because some people understand that "casts by enemy wizzards"  goes only with "Spells" and not "Endless Spells or Spells".

Honestly, no one in his right mind would think that this is the intention of that spell. It’s good that your TO ruled it like that, but you’d have to be a real ****** to argue that’s how the spell is  supposed to work in the first place (I also watched Warhammer Weekly, but I really doubt this would even come up as an issue in most places). 

Endless Bottle is a bit more borderline, and could go both ways. Let’s see what the FAQ says about that, but about the other point this will be 100% ok. 

(also - note to self: bring more than one Cathaller to the table : ) ) 

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