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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

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2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

how much offense/ synergy are you giving up for a little bubble wrap that is only saving you for 1 round of shooting?

Ventplates.  

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If we can’t underdrop an opponent then we have to MSU and screen.  Ideal builds and strategy change with each opponent but some general principles apply. I dont think KO is meant to be an alpha strike type army anymore, I think we have to deploy boats and important units 9” from a corner and screen with arkanunts another 18” from the boats, or about 27”-30” from a corner. 
Then prioritize your targets and try to kill the most threatening things first.  Flamers are expensive with low wounds and low saves.  They will kill what they shoot but so can we. Finding a way to shoot first is more important than having more shots. 

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On 2/7/2020 at 10:19 PM, Gecktron said:

So, im taking my Kharadron Overlords for a Spin tomorrow, 2000 points, matched play.

Potential enemies include a Troggoth heavy Gloomspite Army, a Varanguard list lead by Archaon, the new Tzeentch stuff and others. 

I played the same list last week against some Sylvaneth. I really like the mobility and flexibility of the Ironsky squadron. The damage output was a bit lacking but maybe that was just due to my bad luck. 

Short update to my post from friday. The first game was against the Troggoth army. Battleplan was "The better part of valour".

123326673_betterpartofvalour.PNG.3a87cd69aa6f214312873c9d9c83684f.PNG

My enemy fielded some stabbas, a lot of trolls, 3 mages and a lot of Endless Spells. I deployed at the table edge with everything in my ships. I couldnt really inflict any damage the first round as I had to split my fire. I got hit really hard by charging/teleporting Trolls turn 2. My deployed Thunderers barely hold the center objective, but the Navigator's flare pistol saved the day as I focused down his big stone troll unit. 

The Ironclad was my personal MVP. The giant base really helps with blocking off enemy movement. 

All in all, Im pretty happy with my list and how strong our sky-vessels are now. 

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8 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Short update to my post from friday. The first game was against the Troggoth army. Battleplan was "The better part of valour".

123326673_betterpartofvalour.PNG.3a87cd69aa6f214312873c9d9c83684f.PNG

My enemy fielded some stabbas, a lot of trolls, 3 mages and a lot of Endless Spells. I deployed at the table edge with everything in my ships. I couldnt really inflict any damage the first round as I had to split my fire. I got hit really hard by charging/teleporting Trolls turn 2. My deployed Thunderers barely hold the center objective, but the Navigator's flare pistol saved the day as I focused down his big stone troll unit. 

The Ironclad was my personal MVP. The giant base really helps with blocking off enemy movement. 

All in all, Im pretty happy with my list and how strong our sky-vessels are now. 

what was your list out of interest? Assume you were Zilfin or Nar?

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Just now, ArmyOfGrodd said:

what was your list out of interest? Assume you were Zilfin or Nar?

I played this Barak-Zilfin list:

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin

Kharadron Code
- Artycle: Master The Skies
- Amendment: Prosecute Wars With All Haste
- Footnote: There's Always a Breeze If You Look For It

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (100)
- Artefact: Svaregg-Stein Illuminator Flarepistol
Endrinmaster with Endrinharness (100)
- General
- Trait: Great Tinkerer
- Artefact: Staff of Ocular Optimisation

Battleline
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
- 1x Skyhooks
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Magnificent Omniscope
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon

Units
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)
- Main Gun: Drill Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Debtsettler' Spar Torpedo
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word

Battalions
Iron Sky Attack Squadron (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 103

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59 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

I played this Barak-Zilfin list:

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin

Kharadron Code
- Artycle: Master The Skies
- Amendment: Prosecute Wars With All Haste
- Footnote: There's Always a Breeze If You Look For It

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (100)
- Artefact: Svaregg-Stein Illuminator Flarepistol
Endrinmaster with Endrinharness (100)
- General
- Trait: Great Tinkerer
- Artefact: Staff of Ocular Optimisation

Battleline
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
- 1x Skyhooks
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Magnificent Omniscope
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Main Gun: Heavy Sky Cannon

Units
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)
- Main Gun: Drill Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Debtsettler' Spar Torpedo
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word

Battalions
Iron Sky Attack Squadron (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 103

So many ships 😍

didn’t you feel the need for some more bodies? 

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6 hours ago, Nick907 said:

I dont think KO is meant to be an alpha strike type army anymore,

Me neither. Finally played a game and in everything it felt like holding back time 1 and maybe 2 while softening your opponent up, and only then moving in for the objectives. 
which is a of course super dependent on points 

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The Iron Sky Squadron ability: ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion can leave an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion either before or after it has moved. In addition, roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 when making charge rolls for ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion that left an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion in the movement phase of the same turn.

Can you disembark after Fly High? 

IMO, you can't because the Designer's Commentary Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules or abilities? A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later on.

Am I missing something? Or is just as it seems? We can't disembark afterFly High because it's just not a "move"? Can you still charge with the frigatte and then disembark (3" away from the enemy) and charge (because you are still in the charge phase) to another unite?

Edited by Beliman

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53 minutes ago, Kramer said:

So many ships 😍

didn’t you feel the need for some more bodies? 

Having so many ships felt good. Especially the flexibility of the skycannon was great. Shrapnel plus carbines were great at thinning out hordes. 

The lack of bodies wasnt too much of a problem. Objectives stay under control even if you move off. So I claim then by either staying on them turn one, or by dropping a hero or my riggers on them before moving somewhere else. If the enemy lacks mobility I can tie them up on their half, if they are mobile I try to bind them in close combat (I often just throw my Arkos in there). The Gunhauler is pretty useful in that regard. It can cause D6 mortal wounds on the initial charge thanks to the spar torpedo, cause another round of mortals due to the bomb rack. Thanks to its 4+ save, it may even survive and escape via fly high. 

Also, If I really felt like I need to lock down an objective I have the squad of thunderers. (In one game, they managed to remove Archaon's last 2 wounds in close combat). 

13 minutes ago, Beliman said:

The Iron Sky Squadron ability: ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion can leave an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion either before or after it has moved. In addition, roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 when making charge rolls for ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion that left an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion in the movement phase of the same turn.

Can you disembark after Fly High? 

IMO, you can't because the Designer's Commentary Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules or abilities? A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later on.

Am I missing something? Or is just as it seems? We can't disembark afterFly High because it's just not a "move"? Can you still charge with the frigatte and then disembark (3" away from the enemy) and charge (because you are still in the charge phase) to another unite?

Since GW didnt said anything different in the FAQ I'd say Ironsky Arkanauts can disembark after flying high.

*tinfoil hat-mode on*  GW may have left this vague on purpose, to see how it plays out and remove this if it proves to be too strong. *tinfoil hat-mode off*

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9 hours ago, Nick907 said:

If we can’t underdrop an opponent then we have to MSU and screen.  Ideal builds and strategy change with each opponent but some general principles apply. I dont think KO is meant to be an alpha strike type army anymore, I think we have to deploy boats and important units 9” from a corner and screen with arkanunts another 18” from the boats, or about 27”-30” from a corner. 
Then prioritize your targets and try to kill the most threatening things first.  Flamers are expensive with low wounds and low saves.  They will kill what they shoot but so can we. Finding a way to shoot first is more important than having more shots. 

Did you watch that AoS coach KO stream by any chance? Gary Percival goes all in on the Zilfin alpha it seems, unless he’s against an army that he doesn’t mind giving first turn to. I’m not sure what his list is because he says 1 or 2 drops and he uses Iron Sky Command so he’s missing thunderers or Gunhaulers to do that. I tend to think 3 drops is probably the minimum you’re really getting with this army though.

Ive no idea if that’s enough to underdrop the armies you really want to though.

Out of interest what Barak / list are you running?

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3 hours ago, ArmyOfGrodd said:

Out of interest what Barak / list are you running?

I play a custom sky port  with ‘settle the grudges,’ ‘always take what you are owed’, and ‘without our ships we are naught’. 

endrinmaster with balloons, Ironclad, Gunhauler, 5x Thunderers and 30x Endrinriggers in various unit sizes and mostly ranged special weapons

considering 180 points of arkanunts for screening but I’m not sure I really need them. 

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1 minute ago, Nick907 said:

I play a custom sky port  with ‘settle the grudges,’ ‘always take what you are owed’, and ‘without our ships we are naught’. 

endrinmaster with balloons, Ironclad, Gunhauler, 5x Thunderers and 30x Endrinriggers in various unit sizes and mostly ranged special weapons

considering 180 points of arkanunts for screening but I’m not sure I really need them. 

Balloon heavy! Which I’ve been considering with a thermal rider Khemist to try and keep up.

i was looking at a custom port too with ‘there’s no trading...’ rather than ‘without our ships...’

Are you not using any battalions then?

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12 minutes ago, ArmyOfGrodd said:

Are you not using any battalions then?

Not with that list. I have an alternative build with 2 gunhaulers that uses Grundstok Escort Wing, but it only has 21 Endrinriggers.

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Re: Zilfin shenanigans on turn 1:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/aoeftw/

Worth a listen to the podcast here as well. 2 drops. Move the Ironclad with Khemist turn 1, Comet and Celestant-Prime do AoE to their support heroes. Comet ticks again before your opponent gets another go if you go second. = Lots of dead support heroes turn 1?

Love the list and I’m no expert to disagree with this but fluff-wise I don’t like having the Prime in there so you could have more Riggers in there and maybe bring a Gunhauler for similar small hero sniping? Would keep it at 2 drops as well. Will defo be trying it this weekend. 

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20 hours ago, Beliman said:

The Iron Sky Squadron ability: ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion can leave an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion either before or after it has moved. In addition, roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 when making charge rolls for ARKANAUT COMPANY units from this battalion that left an ARKANAUT FRIGATE from the same battalion in the movement phase of the same turn.

Can you disembark after Fly High? 

IMO, you can't because the Designer's Commentary Q: Some abilities allow you to remove a unit from the battlefield and set it up again, and say that this ‘counts as their move for the movement phase’ (or words to that effect). Do these units count as having made a move for the purposes of any other rules or abilities? A: No, it simply restricts them from making a move later on.

Am I missing something? Or is just as it seems? We can't disembark afterFly High because it's just not a "move"? Can you still charge with the frigatte and then disembark (3" away from the enemy) and charge (because you are still in the charge phase) to another unite?

HI! Yes for sure it isn't a simple question. Seems you are right, but I'll go deeper in the question to find a sure answer. 

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3 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Re: Zilfin shenanigans on turn 1:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/aoeftw/

Worth a listen to the podcast here as well. 2 drops. Move the Ironclad with Khemist turn 1, Comet and Celestant-Prime do AoE to their support heroes. Comet ticks again before your opponent gets another go if you go second. = Lots of dead support heroes turn 1?

Love the list and I’m no expert to disagree with this but fluff-wise I don’t like having the Prime in there so you could have more Riggers in there and maybe bring a Gunhauler for similar small hero sniping? Would keep it at 2 drops as well. Will defo be trying it this weekend. 

I honestly still like the knight incantor with a second endless spell (or comet, and switch the bottle for vortex or purple sun) better than the prime, and you still save 100+ points to spend elsewhere, like doubling the arkanots to sit on a point better.

Edited by PUFNSTUF

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What'd be a good Endless Spell to bring for Spell in a Bottle? I really wanted to try it out. I think there's a Skyport that lets you bring a second artifact but I forget which or if that's still a rule in the new book.

I'm thinking Malevolent Maelstrom or Everblaze comet for anti-caster fun. Or, Purple Sun of Shyish, Celestial Vortex or Warp Lightning Vortex for damage and other utility.

The Shyish spells would be fluffy for my army cause they're based in that realm.

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4 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Re: Zilfin shenanigans on turn 1:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/aoeftw/

Worth a listen to the podcast here as well. 2 drops. Move the Ironclad with Khemist turn 1, Comet and Celestant-Prime do AoE to their support heroes. Comet ticks again before your opponent gets another go if you go second. = Lots of dead support heroes turn 1?

Love the list and I’m no expert to disagree with this but fluff-wise I don’t like having the Prime in there so you could have more Riggers in there and maybe bring a Gunhauler for similar small hero sniping? Would keep it at 2 drops as well. Will defo be trying it this weekend. 

I agree with you, I’m not particularly interested in using any non Duardin in my KO army.

26 minutes ago, DavionStar said:

What'd be a good Endless Spell to bring for Spell in a Bottle? I really wanted to try it out. I think there's a Skyport that lets you bring a second artifact but I forget which or if that's still a rule in the new book.

I'm thinking Malevolent Maelstrom or Everblaze comet for anti-caster fun. Or, Purple Sun of Shyish, Celestial Vortex or Warp Lightning Vortex for damage and other utility.

The Shyish spells would be fluffy for my army cause they're based in that realm.

Comet and Warp Lightning Vortex seem to be the go to. Possibly the StD (I think?) one that pumps mortal wounds depending on nearby wizards but that’s really meta dependent I think.

No port gives an extra artefact unfortunately. Zilfin gives an extra endrinworks.

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2 hours ago, DavionStar said:

I think there's a Skyport that lets you bring a second artifact but I forget which or if that's still a rule in the new book.

I think it’s the collector Command Trait for an Aether-Khemist. So if you use that and have a battalion then you could have 3 heroes with an artefact rather than 2? That’s amazing actually. 

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31 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I think it’s the collector Command Trait for an Aether-Khemist. So if you use that and have a battalion then you could have 3 heroes with an artefact rather than 2? That’s amazing actually. 

I was finding it pretty difficult to work into a list to be honest. Especially if you’re trying to reduce the drops too, in which case you want Iron Sky Command. And battleline is an issue. 

Escort Wing you’re at 4 drops without considering whether to take Riggers instead of Wardens. You’ve got to take 3 heroes for it to even have a purpose really. Unless you didn’t want to take a battalion but wanted an extra artefact. Why you’d do that instead of a battalion with an ability and extra endrinwork in addition though I don’t know.

Maybe you could use it in Zilfin with attack squadron to potentially get 2 units of Arkanauts and an ironclad of Thunderers into someone’s face and out of the boats though if you wanted.

i mean you’re taking spell, flare pistol and bomblets probably? 

 

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@ArmyOfGrodd

Just run into the exact problem you’re talking about. It’s the conditional battleline isn’t it. Ah well. Thought I was into some alpha strike magic there.

Edit: Anyone used Balloonhero with Grudgebearer + Gold to try and take down a hero that absolutely must die? Next best thing to Navvy’s reroll hits...? (Wishful thinking probably). 

Edited by 5kaven5lave

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On 2/8/2020 at 5:25 AM, Phasteon said:

1) We have the same ability with our ships, following almost the same restrictions (apart from more than 1“ from objectives/terrain)

2) Again, our ships do exactly the same. 

3) LoC on the board is a laughable restriction (see 1))? Just kill that 14 wound unit with a 4+ base save and you cancelled teleportation. Thats basically what our army does without any issue or counterplay at all. 

I‘d say its much harder to stop all our ships from using „fly high“, especially because we have many ways of getting wounds back. 

And Tzeentch pays a hefty price for that battalion. For ONE teleportation. Even for 2 it was a fair mechanic, just the sheer number of „trolltastic“ rules is what makes Tzeentch so frustrating to face. 

 

Your conclusion is right, Tzeentch got the more powerful rules. 

But your way of explaining why has a flawed logic and therefore sounds very „emotional driven“ and hyperbolic. Which I can understand, its upsetting to see the other shooting army get such a treatment.

1. I mean, we dont, i just laid the differences out. You cant just ignore the range/capacity/ wounds taken aspect of it and say its the same lol. 

2. Again, they dont. The end result can be the same as far as movement goes, but the process to invoke that movement is VERY different.

3.  i forgot how easy it is to just delete 14 wound models off the table.......cmon man thats barely an argument.  If their rocking Conflagaration coven they have an additional -1 to be hit from ranged bubble, the LOC can easily be screened in the back. I'll concede our army has some amazing hero killing potential, but your lying to yourself if you think you're just deleting a 14 wound model lol.   Also, funnily enough the day the tome came out me and my buddy had a Ko/DoT match where he teleported in first turn 9" away and wrecked my face with horrors/flamers ( killed 2 haulers and a hero) and he actually did bring his LoC to the front line right behind everything, and i literally put my entire remaining army into shooting it, and i did kill it! But i legitimately shot EVERYTHING into it, and it BARELY died, im talking the last barrage of shots got my final wound through.  That only happened because he brought the LOC to the front line, within range of 9" pistols and 12" guns. 

"And Tzeentch pays a hefty price for that battalion. For ONE teleportation. Even for 2 it was a fair mechanic, just the sheer number of „trolltastic“ rules is what makes Tzeentch so frustrating to face. " 
I just disagree with you here, i made my reasons known in the post. if taking 7 units of your choice, and 1 LOC (pretty much a must take anyways)  to make a 1 drop army, that can do this iteration of a teleport for 180 pts is a hefty price....then sign me up in literally any other army for that "hefty price" . Theirs literally 0 tax on the battalion besides point cost.  I do think the trolltastic rules and general power of the army combined compounds the problem, but i dont think changehost isnt also crazy. 

"But your way of explaining why has a flawed logic and therefore sounds very „emotional driven“ and hyperbolic. Which I can understand, its upsetting to see the other shooting army get such a treatment."

Wheres my flawed logic? I demonstrated how our flying is different with the rules established, also how the armies play out after those teleports due to range and movement and restrictions. Of course its a bit emotionally driven, we've waited 2 years for KO to be fixed, and while they are a great army to play now, in the same breath GW put out some busted nonsense that has better shooting than an army whose literally meant to be THE shooting army. And beyond the shooting aspect, the army is just broken in multiple ways (FAQ helped tone it down, but im not convinced it was enough). 

Look, we see the game/army differently, that's apparent. However you cant call my logic flawed when your argument for dealing with teleport is "kill the 14 wound model".....Thats some flawed logic. 

Not looking for an argument, just dont like being dismissed when im giving critical and thought out assessments, even if they seem/are negative theirs a reason, and ive detailed those reasons, or at least how I see them. Wether thats correct or not, or you disagree or not, ive put effort into explaining my view. 

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I played a small event this weekend with the list below.  Had wins against Khorne and FEC and a draw vs Tzeentch.  Still not sure how I would change the list, but it worked pretty well, I generally just flew the boat to the most threatening target and shot it to pieces. I used Fly High far more with the gunship+Riggers than I did on the Ironclad, not really a ton of reason to do it with an Ironclad full of Company since it puts their guns out of range and honestly the Ironclad was only at risk of dying vs Tzeentch due to all the mortals.

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
Aether-Khemist (90)
Aetheric Navigator (100)
- Artefact: Cyclonic Aethometer
Arkanaut Admiral (140)
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Old Boots
20 x Arkanaut Company (180)
- 2x Skypikes
- 2x Light Skyhooks
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
20 x Arkanaut Company (180)
- 2x Skypikes
- 2x Light Skyhooks
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
6 x Endrinriggers (200)
- 1x Skyhooks
- 1x Grapnel Launchers
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 1x Drill Launcher
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Breath of Morgrim (Barak-Urbaz)
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Ebullient Buoyancy Aid
Iron Sky Command (130)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

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5 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I played a small event this weekend with the list below.  Had wins against Khorne and FEC and a draw vs Tzeentch.  Still not sure how I would change the list, but it worked pretty well, I generally just flew the boat to the most threatening target and shot it to pieces. I used Fly High far more with the gunship+Riggers than I did on the Ironclad, not really a ton of reason to do it with an Ironclad full of Company since it puts their guns out of range and honestly the Ironclad was only at risk of dying vs Tzeentch due to all the mortals.

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
Aether-Khemist (90)
Aetheric Navigator (100)
- Artefact: Cyclonic Aethometer
Arkanaut Admiral (140)
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Old Boots
20 x Arkanaut Company (180)
- 2x Skypikes
- 2x Light Skyhooks
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
20 x Arkanaut Company (180)
- 2x Skypikes
- 2x Light Skyhooks
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
6 x Endrinriggers (200)
- 1x Skyhooks
- 1x Grapnel Launchers
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 1x Drill Launcher
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Breath of Morgrim (Barak-Urbaz)
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)
- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Ebullient Buoyancy Aid
Iron Sky Command (130)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

Am I blind or did you only take one artefact?

Its interesting to see a list so heavy on the Arkanauts. Are you able to give a little run down on how each game went?

Edited by ArmyOfGrodd

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