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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

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1 hour ago, Matt Large said:

Is there an "optimum" loadout for endrinriggers? 3-6 strong. 

It all depends on what you want them to do. Stay back and repair boats? Go with the special guns. Rush out and take objectives? Saws will do the trick. I’m going for the first option, if I need to take an objective I’ll shoot first and charge in with the Missenmaster. 

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@wanderingrogue

First off, thanks for the insight on WW. I had never watched the show before... as video shows just don't work for me. Podcasts work better for me. But as a player coming to KO, it was all great to hear.

I would disagree that it's a bad book. I play Nighthaunt, and that's a bad book because it features redundant warscrolls, overcosted and underpowered units, and a lot of useless warscrolls. 

I do think the anti synergies in KO is a little ridiculous, but I see what they were trying to do: give a reason for units to leave boats. I also agree that it's unfortunate that the new hero is such an automatic character to I ckude as your general. 

As for competitive lists, I think a lot will depend on how important drops end up being. If low drops are essential, armies are going to be pretty mono build with the Iron Sky Battalion.

If not, I see a much wider range of builds as there's a lot of interesting choices you can make. So I think that will be important to test out and see. 

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55 minutes ago, Nick907 said:

It all depends on what you want them to do. Stay back and repair boats? Go with the special guns. Rush out and take objectives? Saws will do the trick. I’m going for the first option, if I need to take an objective I’ll shoot first and charge in with the Missenmaster. 

I think units of 6 with grapple and skyhook. 2 volleyguns if they planning on chilling/ kiting. 

 

With all the restrictive nature of our rules I’m grateful having a special weapon doesn’t keep an endrinrigger from being able to repair. 

 

Has as anyone considered taking a 12 man block of skywardens to get a share of aethergold? Probably in Barak nar. Would have to screen them but shouldn’t be to hard to deliver with a 12 inch move. 

 

Its to bad gunhaulers can’t hitch 6 riders, frigates 9 and ironclads hitch 12 or 13 with ebullient bouyancy. 

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Since we don't have enough of a view how the cities look (the pictures are a bit hazy), would people agree that the Girl Genius webcomic from the Foglios provide a good aesthetic or am I off by a mile?

Currently designing an inn on the top of my Tempest's Eye city, that I want to blend into my Kharadron aesthetic (using the Forgeshrine 40k scenery). I will replace the screens with dials and buttons with levers. This also ties in with Grombrindel, who has a dwarf head in some places instead of a skull (which will be the logo of the skyport).

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5 hours ago, wanderingrogue said:

so... has everyone written the same list yet ???? hahah

so after the warhammer weekly ko review a lot of people have asked me if i really thing the ko is bad... and ill reiterate that i think its a bad book... but doesnt necessarily mean it will produce bad (or even unfun) lists....its just the process to get there is quiet laborious and a challange (and competitively speaking very narrow focused)

 

that said i still love my baloon boys and im taking em to heat 1 in a week

 

 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zilfin
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Kharadron Code
- Artycle: Master The Skies
- Amendment: Don't Argue With the Wind
- Footnote: There's Always a Breeze If You Look For It
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- General - Grudge Bearer - Omniscope
Aetheric Navigator (100)
Aether-Khemist (90) - party popper
10 x Arkanaut Company (90)
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
6 x Endrinriggers (200)
6 x Endrinriggers (200)
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 2x Drill Launcher
6 x Endrinriggers (200)
- 2x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 2x Drill Launcher
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Debtsettler' Spar Torpedo
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)
- Main Gun: Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: Zonbarcorp 'Dealbreaker' Battle Ram
Iron Sky Command (130)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

 

That is the general list I came up with :P. Some varieties of course but Ironclad, gunhauler, edrinmaster with dirigible suit as general, and a bunch of balloon boys.

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9 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

As for competitive lists, I think a lot will depend on how important drops end up being. If low drops are essential, armies are going to be pretty mono build with the Iron Sky Battalion.

If not, I see a much wider range of builds as there's a lot of interesting choices you can make. So I think that will be important to test out and see. 

I also watched WW (Warhammer Weekly) recently and agrees there are a lot of 'exceptions' and anti-synergies. Some like Barak-Thyrng, only KO battleline seems outright unfair. To me, they took a lot of lessons from 40k's transport mechanics and preemptively weaken it. But I can see why the rules seems unfriendly, the rules system itself doesn't support garrison in unit interactions very well.

 I do think that are a build for each of 3 main battalion: Iron Sky for Zilfin/Zon, Iron Command for Zilfin/Urbaz and Escort Wing for Urbaz/Zon.  There are all between 2-5 drops. Most lists are starting to look the same, is because when people look at KO, they see ships, grundstok marines and balloons and 7 Hitchers and 10/15/25 Marines transport on skyvessels, you'll see similar ratios in listbuilding.  So naturally inclined to take an battalion that fits the skyvessels they want to take.

KO formula:

If Skyvessel exist, Marine count must be less than Skyvessel Garrison Capacity and Rigger count less than 8. 🤣

And none of the lists are actually bad or better put, there isn't one that is obviously better than the rest. Each have its merit, and they all have the same weaknesses. Low wound count, low damage output. 


What I've learned so far:
I've had about 5 games of KO against OBR, Seraphon and Tzeentch.  I was using a Barak Urbaz Escort Wing. What I've learn is:

  • Remember that you can disengage.
  • Volley fire command ability is your friend. 
  • Spend your aether-gold (willingly but wisely). I prefer to use it on reroll saves but sometimes reroll wounds for grunstok and ironclads. Reroll hits of 1 is plentiful.
  • For the early part of the games, stick your riggers close (6") to your ships so that you can hitch when the skyvessel fly high or 1" if it's endrinrigger/master for the repairs.
  • As tempting as it is, all marines should be out by turn 2 latest or turn 1 if possible. Since I was playing Barak Urbaz, i only got grundstok with rifles  (and khemist) to combat drop of skyvessels, and they can contribute to the middle of the board with their 18" range guns.
  • Go second, and stay going second (for the second battleround). Having a double turn against you (in battleround 3) is more devastating than a getting double turn (in the battleround 2). If you take a double turn, you'll have to confident that you can take 2 turns of punishment without contributing much in the combat phases. You have >30% less army durability than most armies and many armies can chew thru your 80-100 wounds in 2 combat phases. 
  • Khemist's and 10 grundstoks can hold a position quite well with -2 to hit in combat. 
  •  Don't just deploy in a corner, look out for mission objectives.
  • Petrifex Elites do die to shooting with rend
  • Tzeentch has a new bonkers interaction with destiny dice. 
  • Grudgebearer trait makes your dirigible suit a mini-ironclad (against marked target). 
  • Skyvessel prow should face the enemy with the riggers to either ports of the skyvessel. Reducing combat surface on the skyvessel.

Tempest-eye Grundstok Gunhauler with Drill cannon seems to be the best snipers In game.  O.o

Edited by Qaz
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1 hour ago, Qaz said:

they all have the same weaknesses. Low wound count..

This is what made me to start KO project, and possibly (finally) AoS. I've had 3 AoS projects during the last year, but all failed before even playing as the "correct" way to play seemed to be: "buy ton of dudes full of details and mold lines". Yuck. I love painting, but painting 80-160 same guys is not a hobby - it's a job.  Needless to say, finding out this the hard way is what basically made me focus on other games like Malifaux and Bushido. 

Don't get me wrong, the models are another thing. I tested the waters with the Nightvault warband, and well.. the steampunk dwarves really hit the spot for me. I've never been more excited of GW's miniatures! Even if the clutter could still be less, I still adore these models. 

This is probably an entire discussion by itself, but I really don't get why the community let's GW push them towards insane model counts. I want my models to matter, instead of being chaff just to be removed inc multitudes after 10 seconds of playing and moving my army with a snow-shovel.  Tongue in cheeck btw, don't take it too seriously.

I merely wanted to say I love KO for multiple reasons, and low model count is one of them!

Edited by marke
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46 minutes ago, marke said:

I merely wanted to say I love KO for multiple reasons, but low model count is not the least of them.

Agreed!

1615838786_WhatsAppImage2020-01-18at20_04_16.jpeg.b40f12abe0c10645ce0788b6e75c02d6.jpeg

But.
Low model count in AoS system usually means that you will struggle to hold and challenge objective and it fits well in most people's fantasy of how troops behaves too (Grunts hold ground etc) and low wound count army  roughly translate to a fragile (and elite) army.  Its part of the AoS system atm. Since I consider myself a hobbyist first and the only correct way to play is to have fun together,  these factors are consideration to my game tactics and how I would react during the game and to many people, strategic consideration during list building but I prioritize models over lists (for my hobby returns).

 In the photo above, its 16 models on the field and 11 off for a 2k game: 1 ironclad, 2 gunhaulers, 12 riggers, 2 heroes, and 10 grundstok. Its tiny compare to what Seraphon can output (100+ skinks) so my tactics to win would be first onto objective and block it off and to remove the summoner units so I have a chance to challenge objectives. This mission is one of those falling star objectives, so it's more advantageous to KO as my KO list normally would not be able to hold objectives early and Seraphon can't get the lead they want in battleround 1 and 2. etc.

So, It's more of something to keep in mind whilst playing against others so that you can have a fun tactical game. 



 

Edited by Qaz
WOrds

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56 minutes ago, marke said:

This is probably an entire discussion by itself, but I really don't get why the community let's GW push them towards insane model counts. I want my models to matter, instead of being chaff just to be removed inc multitudes after 10 seconds of playing and moving my army with a snow-shovel.  Tongue in cheeck btw, don't take it too seriously.

The thing is objectives need to be captured and all buffs are better when they buff 40 dudes instead of 10 dudes. The games core rules are written is a way that helps massive units. Biggest issue I have is that hordes seem battleshock immune almost all times when low model count units like Troggoths or Ogors take more battleshocks than skaven

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32 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Biggest issue I have is that hordes seem battleshock immune almost all times.

It's because the only hordes worth taking is the one that's immune to battleshock. Otherwise they are too fragile 😅

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Ironic, since "buy eighty dudes of the same dudes to stand a chance" is ultimately what doomed WHFB. You'd think GW would be more conscious of that fact, even if AoS isn't quite in the same spot... yet. 

Edited by Clan's Cynic

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The first tournament result are in for Kharadrons. Tempest 2020 ended with Kharadron 35/44.  1 win and 4 losses. Ofcourse I dont know the tactics behind the list and the general skill of the tournament. It is fun though to peruse. The list seem quite weird to me without any thunderers and arkanauts in a Zilfin list. What do you guys think. 

This was the list used:

image.png.ac400e4ca030339a0d5c087be0edd040.png

image.png.e3cded7a71dfede73469c9b30cc657f4.png

Edited by Dejnar

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24 minutes ago, Dejnar said:

The first tournament result are in for Kharadrons. Tempest 2020 ended with Kharadron 35/44.  1 win and 4 losses. Ofcourse I dont know the tactics behind the list and the general skill of the tournament. It is fun though to peruse. The list seem quite weird to me without any thunderers and arkanauts in a Zilfin list. What do you guys think. 

This was the list used:

image.png.ac400e4ca030339a0d5c087be0edd040.png

image.png.e3cded7a71dfede73469c9b30cc657f4.png

List is definitely bad. Makes about 0 sense to have an Ironclad with nothing to put in it. Also check your spelling on Endrinriggers

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10 minutes ago, Eevika said:

List is definitely bad. Makes about 0 sense to have an Ironclad with nothing to put in it. Also check your spelling on Endrinriggers

The list is not mine. I just copied it from Tabletop.

The spelling is unfortunate indeed. 

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1 hour ago, Eevika said:

List is definitely bad. Makes about 0 sense to have an Ironclad with nothing to put in it. Also check your spelling on Endrinriggers

I think he is relying on the WLV endless spell to cripple the enemy army in the first battleround. The Zilfin hero phase move on the gunhauler which is up to 24" then drop the spell 13" + 7" for d3 mortal wounds on a 2+ to 4+ or D6 mortal on a 6 (happens on setup and at the end of every movement phase). Doesn't quite work when people see it coming or have good casters to dispel. From the look of his matchups, He did catch his OBR opponent off guard in the first round but still lost (minor).  Then fought 2 bad matchups, Fyreslayers who can tank all the damage (They have an aura of ignore spells on 4+ relic and 4+ beard save) and Idoneth with 2 priest so they weren't on the board to begin with. 

Edited by Qaz
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4 hours ago, Qaz said:

What I've learned so far:

 

  • Go second, and stay going second (for the second battleround). Having a double turn against you (in battleround 3) is more devastating than a getting double turn (in the battleround 2). If you take a double turn, you'll have to confident that you can take 2 turns of punishment without contributing much in the combat phases. You have >30% less army durability than most armies and many armies can chew thru your 80-100 wounds in 2 combat phases. 

Thanks for sharing your experience and lots of lessons learned. I think sharing experiences is going to be important for learning to play KO well, they're just such a different army. 

I'm curious how important you found your drops to be. In the point above you mention that the double turn is more crippling if it's rounds 2/3 instead of 1/2. Does that mean drops don't matter as much?

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16 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Thanks for sharing your experience and lots of lessons learned. I think sharing experiences is going to be important for learning to play KO well, they're just such a different army. 

I'm curious how important you found your drops to be. In the point above you mention that the double turn is more crippling if it's rounds 2/3 instead of 1/2. Does that mean drops don't matter as much?

Ah. I made an assumption that your opponent will never get the initiative or will never give you first turn because your alpha-strike potential. 

I am not sure whether drops matter at the moment. My mates don't think so because they themselves wouldn't give up the first turn. I feel like it doesn't matter but have not had experience that tell me so. 

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6 hours ago, Qaz said:

I also watched WW (Warhammer Weekly) recently and agrees there are a lot of 'exceptions' and anti-synergies. Some like Barak-Thyrng, only KO battleline seems outright unfair. To me, they took a lot of lessons from 40k's transport mechanics and preemptively weaken it. But I can see why the rules seems unfriendly, the rules system itself doesn't support garrison in unit interactions very well.

 I do think that are a build for each of 3 main battalion: Iron Sky for Zilfin/Zon, Iron Command for Zilfin/Urbaz and Escort Wing for Urbaz/Zon.  There are all between 2-5 drops. Most lists are starting to look the same, is because when people look at KO, they see ships, grundstok marines and balloons and 7 Hitchers and 10/15/25 Marines transport on skyvessels, you'll see similar ratios in listbuilding.  So naturally inclined to take an battalion that fits the skyvessels they want to take.

KO formula:

If Skyvessel exist, Marine count must be less than Skyvessel Garrison Capacity and Rigger count less than 8. 🤣

And none of the lists are actually bad or better put, there isn't one that is obviously better than the rest. Each have its merit, and they all have the same weaknesses. Low wound count, low damage output. 

 

Tempest-eye Grundstok Gunhauler with Drill cannon seems to be the best snipers In game.  O.o

I think your needlessly limiting your list building trying to shoehorn certain Baraks into certain battalions. 

 

The loondrinmaster opens up so much for us. I can make an escort wing for any allegiance. 

 

You don’t even consider Barak Nar a main port for us???? Slap a iron sky command Barak Nar on your list at least. Gives you a good reason to go character heavy. 

 

The tempest eye eye combos are very tempting. 1-4 is tough. 

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4 hours ago, Dejnar said:

The first tournament result are in for Kharadrons. Tempest 2020 ended with Kharadron 35/44.  1 win and 4 losses. Ofcourse I dont know the tactics behind the list and the general skill of the tournament. It is fun though to peruse. The list seem quite weird to me without any thunderers and arkanauts in a Zilfin list. What do you guys think. 

This was the list used:

image.png.ac400e4ca030339a0d5c087be0edd040.png

image.png.e3cded7a71dfede73469c9b30cc657f4.png

*"Woop ...there it is...."* 

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I think if I had to guess that no low drop Battalions hurt him.

 

Its another reason I find the KO list building very restrictive. You need low drops. No it's or buts...even if your going to give it away..you need the choice. So X battalion plus y battleline fitted in 1/2 balloons plus or minus thunderers and endless spell. 200 PTS to garnish and pretend the list is your own......

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4 minutes ago, GoddammitGary said:

I think if I had to guess that no low drop Battalions hurt him.

 

Its another reason I find the KO list building very restrictive. You need low drops. No it's or buts...even if your going to give it away..you need the choice. So X battalion plus y battleline fitted in 1/2 balloons plus or minus thunderers and endless spell. 200 PTS to garnish and pretend the list is your own......

Well you could plan on turtling in a corner and then it doesn’t matter if you go first or second. 

 

Our screens are cheaper now and we have the mobility to get anywhere even from deploying in a corner. 

 

I don’t know how you can complain about restrictive list building considering where we just came from.

 

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9 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

Well you could plan on turtling in a corner and then it doesn’t matter if you go first or second. 

 

Our screens are cheaper now and we have the mobility to get anywhere even from deploying in a corner. 

 

I don’t know how you can complain about restrictive list building considering where we just came from.

 

There are some very common lists that you just can't go second Vs currently. Doesn't matter how much you castle up with your sub 100 wound army. KO need first turn choice or thier boned quiet a lot of the time.

 

And personaly I found more variance in the old book (eventually) Current list build paths are stagnant a week in to the book...

... which is not to say I'm not enjoying using the army or two I managed to mine from this atrocious book. Cos I am - there's some very fun mechanics and a powerful list. But the process of making said list after only a week is dull dull dull dull

Edited by GoddammitGary

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Last edition you straight up had an arkonaught tax... they were your only option and they sucked at their intended use. (Big block of skyhooks is arguable as intended, just got exploited by mathhammer)

 

now we have up to 6 battleline options and you say it’s more restrictive? Doesn’t make sense to me. 

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2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I think your needlessly limiting your list building trying to shoehorn certain Baraks into certain battalions. 

Probably true. Still exploring what the book is offering after all. 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

You don’t even consider Barak Nar a main port for us???? Slap a iron sky command Barak Nar on your list at least. Gives you a good reason to go character heavy. 

I have not considered Barak Nar seriously. List is not exhaustive. Every time I look at Barak-Nar, I wished it was 5+ ignore spell effects Amendment instead. In terms of list idea for Barak-Nar is starting off with 3*10 Grundstok Thunderers, probably in a frigate each, and  a Gunhauler with 2-3 heroes. Paint them all as the black marines ghostbuster squadron.  

So there's more for later since there's 6 battleline options.  I would definitely explore it at a later date especially if the battletome internal balance is good. Maybe an army of MSU riggers and Gunhaulers in Barak Thryng with fyreslayers support. I feel like the only model that doesn't bring much to the table, is the Endrinmaster on foot. 

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I‘m going against Everchosen again tomorrow with the following List (pretty much just tweaked the Admiral) 

 

Barak Urbaz:

Admiral

- Grudgebearer

- „Hammer“ of Symmetry (Hysh, +1 Damage) 

Always played him like that back in the days, I‘m excited about punching Archaon with Damage 6 Attacks! 

Khemist

Endrinmaster

Navigator (not sure yet if Flarepistol or Voidstone)

 

20 Arkanauts

10 Thunderers (Rifles) 

2x Gunhauler (1 with Endrinwork)

6 Riggers (all saws this time)

Ironclad (Last Word)

Grundstock Escort Wing

 

I will share the result, but I‘m quite confident. 

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