AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Kramer]

19 hours ago, Nick907 said:

The Khemist is why the Thunderer warscroll had to be changed. A mortar team as written was okay, but doubling the shots was too much.  Adding an extra shot to a weapon profile is an uninspiring game mechanic, and the difference in values between augmented and not-augmented is too great to be properly balanced by point costs. 

I do think you have a point in balancing. And 

 

7 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

What if the Khemists ability was changed to a flat +1 to hit and wound across the board?  Extra hits because weapon recharges quicker between use.  Extra wounds because it’s overcharged?

Overcharged is a good alternative. But in the end I also feel KO are not far off. I played a few games now and what I expected. Run and gun style ends up more of an. redeploy, block, shoot playstyle. 

I find it very hard to actually play the run and gun style with the boats and passengers. So either some more battle line options. (allowing either longer range thunderers or even skywardens) would allow that a bit more OR even a change to embarking disembarking rules.

That being said i'm only a couple of small games in but I see the same issues in BatReps (representative or not).

 

Edit: Just wanted to add I'm still having tons of fun with the faction! It such a cool visually and playstyle army. And i;m fully aware that not every faction can be perfectly balanced. So i'm very much enjoying figuring out how to play them. Something that get lost in the ambition of being tournament winners on occasion. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Kramer

[Nick907]

A more generic +1 to hit/wound could be good. Might make my volleyguns too strong though. It's hard not to swing the pendulum too far.

[Rachmani]

What about generic +1 to hit (or wound) and a Command ability that buffs both instead of one on the affected unit (units?)?
Could be the sweet spot.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Rachmani

[Nick907]

Yep, something simple and easy to math like that.

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, Rachmani said:

What about generic +1 to hit (or wound) and a Command ability that buffs both instead of one on the affected unit (units?)?
Could be the sweet spot.

again, only if you change the rest of the book too, because this would make the bottom fall out under KO entirely

[Thomas Lyons]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

again, only if you change the rest of the book too, because this would make the bottom fall out under KO entirely

Fully agreed.  If this change was made, this unit would evaporate off of the table overnight.

[Nick907]

3 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Fully agreed.  If this change was made, this unit would evaporate off of the table overnight.

I'd be okay with the Khemist going away if it meant cheaper infantry and Special-Weapon stacking Thunderers.  People don't take Skywardens because they 'd rather augment the Riggers saws, and they don't take Volleyguns on Company because they want to augment Skyhooks. People don't take Thunderers because they cannot stack the special weapons anymore, and they don't care about augmenting the rifles .
Reducing/removing the Khemist would require lower point costs for all the infantry, but I think all those warscrolls (and loadout options) all look more attractive without the potential to add an extra shot. The augmentation ability takes a lot more than it gives. Good news is that the Gunhauler is now the same cost, so an easy swap!

[Rachmani]

18 hours ago, stratigo said:

again, only if you change the rest of the book too, because this would make the bottom fall out under KO entirely

I think we've established that any changes to the Khemist would have to be met with compensation elsewhere in the book.

In fact that whole discussion is based on that. Weaken the one thing that has to big an impact in order to be able to bring the rest on par.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

If the Khemist granted a simple +1 to Hit and/or to Wound, it would easier to justify this affecting all of the units weapons rather than just one yes?  Because that's something I would really like to see.  A unit wide effect would really help out Thunderers, and Arkanauts, and Skywardens...everyone really.

An Aethermatic Volleygun hitting on 4s (3s against characters and monsters) and wounding on 3s would be quite nasty yes?  And Aethershot Rifles hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s?  Yes please!

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, Rachmani said:

I think we've established that any changes to the Khemist would have to be met with compensation elsewhere in the book.

In fact that whole discussion is based on that. Weaken the one thing that has to big an impact in order to be able to bring the rest on par.

Yes, and one more unit just because it's cool  

[Nick907]

This is a great discussion, I hope the company picks up on it and acts. GW has been really good about that lately. KO are a fun concept and my favorite force so far in any tabletop war game, so I will continue to collect them regardless of the rules. Thanks to the yearly release of the GHB and the ease of changing online warscrolls, it really wouldn't take too much effort to change rules for the Khemist and reduce points for infantry.
I  think the KO can avoid a 'total remake from the ground up' this way.

[stratigo]

the level of changes we're talking about now is a full on new battle tome though, which is probably more than a year off

[Rachmani]

3 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

If the Khemist granted a simple +1 to Hit and/or to Wound, it would easier to justify this affecting all of the units weapons rather than just one yes?  Because that's something I would really like to see.  A unit wide effect would really help out Thunderers, and Arkanauts, and Skywardens...everyone really.

An Aethermatic Volleygun hitting on 4s (3s against characters and monsters) and wounding on 3s would be quite nasty yes?  And Aethershot Rifles hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s?  Yes please!

This is definitely something I'd consider "part of the deal". Steamlined, easy to implement, good for all types of weapons - like the Volleyguns that look fantastic, feel like they should have a place in a generic KO army - but just don't, because Khemist as of now is just awful on them & without any buffs they just don't hit well enough.

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Yes, and one more unit just because it's cool  

The melee equivalent of Thunderers would be my pick. I refer to them as "Ironbreakers on Airships" =D. With Cutlass, Shield and a short-range gun in the cutlass (or shield) because reasons! Also 2 new ships. The "no transport all shoot" version of the frigate & a small Gunhauler size transporter.

All 3 together basically make up my complete wish list.

2 hours ago, Nick907 said:

This is a great discussion, I hope the company picks up on it and acts. GW has been really good about that lately. KO are a fun concept and my favorite force so far in any tabletop war game, so I will continue to collect them regardless of the rules. Thanks to the yearly release of the GHB and the ease of changing online warscrolls, it really wouldn't take too much effort to change rules for the Khemist and reduce points for infantry.
I  think the KO can avoid a 'total remake from the ground up' this way.

A good way would be some changes sooner than later, and a revision of the Battletome in the foreseeable future - meaning some time in 2019.

11 minutes ago, stratigo said:

the level of changes we're talking about now is a full on new battle tome though, which is probably more than a year off

We're definitely talking full on new battle tome here. But I think it's kind of justified here. KO are so cool, so thematically interesting, have such great models that it's a shame they feel so pigeonholed and kind of incomplete.

[stratigo]

KO are not getting a battle tome any time soon though. GW is focusing on new armies, and there are other battletomes that need fixes even more. We're not SCE

[Rachmani]

Well, to my knowledge - and I sadly can't point you to where I read it, so take it with a grain of salt - the KO are at least the "other faction" (besides SCE) that are confirmed to get a new battle tome some time in the future.

[stratigo]

I feel like that's just KO players being hopeful and that turning into a case of chinese telephone. I am seeing 1 year, minimum, and more like two or so years, before KO get a new battletome, and in a year from now, who even knows if the army will need it? THey could drop all the points on all units by 100 and make KO the strongest army they have ever made in next year's GHB.

[Nicholunch]

I don't think the khemist is the problem for the army. If anything it's what helps make it competitive to other new, strong armies. DoK get +1 attacks, Death get +1 attacks, chaos get additional attacks, etc.

The Thunderers were poorly written at first, and that's why they got changed, I think. Even 10 guys shooting hand cannons 36" with d3 damage would've been too much. No other units get all special weapons choices unrestricted. Especially not for 100 points. But other armies get +1 to attacks all the time.

Magic unbinding helped the Navigator be relevant. If anything, they need to find more value in the admiral and emdrinmaster. 

The changes created a little more difficulty. But after a few games, I feel we still have a chance to make some room for ourselves. I do agree we need more unit choices. And I feel like we need more opportunity to deal out mortal wounds. And we should be able to fire from the ship decks without having to disembark.

 

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, stratigo said:

I feel like that's just KO players being hopeful and that turning into a case of chinese telephone. I am seeing 1 year, minimum, and more like two or so years, before KO get a new battletome, and in a year from now, who even knows if the army will need it? THey could drop all the points on all units by 100 and make KO the strongest army they have ever made in next year's GHB.

Even then I have the feeling it’s one of the most FAQ’ed tomes. Not to mention one of the warscrolls is reworked from the ground up. 

It’s a very bad/incomplete product as it is. Regardless of faction strength. You wouldn’t accept such a faulty product from a different manufacturer. 

[Lightbox]

Hey guys,

 

I'm planning to do a conversion project soon (mixed order race shadow pirates) and planning on rocking Kharadrons with it but I was wondering if anyone could give any tips for someone who's never tried them before? Especially some good early purchases to get a force together. Will clarify that I generally play friendly as opposed to mega competitive.

I already have 1 box of arkanauts which I plan to mix up with some human and elf bits I have to make a squad. I'm thinking since they have 3 weapon options to have 3 squads each with a different maxed weapon? Aka 3 skypikes in one & 3 skyhooks in another etc. I've heard light skyhooks are generally the best choice but I was wondering if the others can also be used for fun, read a bit in the thread about skypikes being respectable with 3 of them.

 

It will be a slow project so will probably look first at a 500 or 1k core and then start expanding from there.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Lightbox said:

Hey guys,

 

I'm planning to do a conversion project soon (mixed order race shadow pirates) and planning on rocking Kharadrons with it but I was wondering if anyone could give any tips for someone who's never tried them before? Especially some good early purchases to get a force together. Will clarify that I generally play friendly as opposed to mega competitive.

I already have 1 box of arkanauts which I plan to mix up with some human and elf bits I have to make a squad. I'm thinking since they have 3 weapon options to have 3 squads each with a different maxed weapon? Aka 3 skypikes in one & 3 skyhooks in another etc. I've heard light skyhooks are generally the best choice but I was wondering if the others can also be used for fun, read a bit in the thread about skypikes being respectable with 3 of them.

 

It will be a slow project so will probably look first at a 500 or 1k core and then start expanding from there.

Haha yes! You go gurl! Excited to are how it Will turn out. 

I used 3 arkanauts units in the same manner as well last game. Volley guns were a bit tricky due to range. The skyhooks stayed back due to the 24 range. Great campers. The 3 piles up front. Great close range unit. 

With the volleyguns I was constantly tempted  to get closer to also get the shots of the pistols. If I had the parts they would either be pikes or skyhooks

From my limited experience (only just started playing them). I missed the mobility of the endrinriggers in the last 1K game as I wanted to test out three arkanauts squads. I bought (second hand) the battleforce box with some extras. And it has been a great starting point for me. Ironclad seems excessive at 1k to me (could be wrong). The start collecting is next for me as I’m missing the endrinmaster and thunderers  

[Lightbox]

4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Haha yes! You go gurl! Excited to are how it Will turn out. 

I used 3 arkanauts units in the same manner as well last game. Volley guns were a bit tricky due to range. The skyhooks stayed back due to the 24 range. Great campers. The 3 piles up front. Great close range unit. 

With the volleyguns I was constantly tempted  to get closer to also get the shots of the pistols. If I had the parts they would either be pikes or skyhooks

From my limited experience (only just started playing them). I missed the mobility of the endrinriggers in the last 1K game as I wanted to test out three arkanauts squads. I bought (second hand) the battleforce box with some extras. And it has been a great starting point for me. Ironclad seems excessive at 1k to me (could be wrong). The start collecting is next for me as I’m missing the endrinmaster and thunderers  

Heh thanks. And tbh I'm tempted for 2 units of skypikes as extra ones should be easy enough to make with my conversions and also because I do like a good bit of STAB STAB STAB. Only problem will be remembering not to just charge them willy nilly into something like blood warriors because they will not survive that. Better to shoot dedicated close combat units to pieces first.

I might grab the start collecting since I'm sure I can make use out of all 3 units in it, even if the gunhauler isn't considered as useful it's another mobile flying gun platform / distraction which will probably be nice. And also another ship to practice converting with ;)

[Kramer]

23 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

I might grab the start collecting since I'm sure I can make use out of all 3 units in it, even if the gunhauler isn't considered as useful it's another mobile flying gun platform / distraction which will probably be nice. And also another ship to practice converting with ;

Gunhauler in smaller 1K games was useful to me. Also the combo of escort wing with sky port mornhar seems potentially very good. 

[Arkanaut Admiral]

@Rachmani

Glad you like the idea!

Imagine our Arkanauts having 3+/3+ guns (And I’d up their rend to -1, to match every other gun in the game) and 3+/3+ cutters, with a 3+/2+ skyhook, 4+/3+ vollygun and 3+/3+ skyhook.  They’d finally have some punch, and be the glass cannons they probably should be, rather than the fodder for skyhooks that they currently are.

@ Nicolaunch

Completely agree that we should be able to fight from the ships.  I’ve been experimenting with using the terrain garrison rules for the ships, allowing the embarked passengers to shoot and fight from the ship and be targeted in return.  They really help us out without being broken.

As for the Admiral and the Endrinmaster, I guess the first could have his invoke the code looked at again, whilst the latter could be given a points decrease if nothing else could be found.

Also, I really really really think that the khemists (new) augmentation ability should be applicable to the ships.  All the characters should have an effect on the ships imo.

 

[Rachmani]

10 hours ago, Nicholunch said:

I don't think the khemist is the problem for the army. If anything it's what helps make it competitive to other new, strong armies. DoK get +1 attacks, Death get +1 attacks, chaos get additional attacks, etc.

The Thunderers were poorly written at first, and that's why they got changed, I think. Even 10 guys shooting hand cannons 36" with d3 damage would've been too much. No other units get all special weapons choices unrestricted. Especially not for 100 points. But other armies get +1 to attacks all the time.

Magic unbinding helped the Navigator be relevant. If anything, they need to find more value in the admiral and emdrinmaster. 

The changes created a little more difficulty. But after a few games, I feel we still have a chance to make some room for ourselves. I do agree we need more unit choices. And I feel like we need more opportunity to deal out mortal wounds. And we should be able to fire from the ship decks without having to disembark.

 

We're not saying the Khemist is the problem for the army. We're saying he's the problem regarding future buffs. 
Many armies get +1 attack but to my knowledge only through command abilities. Static buffs most often come in the form of +1 to hit/wound, rerolls or extra saves.

I agree on the matter of admiral & endrinmaster. The former could be helped by the Arkhelian King treatment - meaning Skywardens become battle line when he's the general.

[BWG Cannonball]

Morning Admirals!

 

I participated in a small RTT over the weekend with my KO and ended up taking 2nd place.  It's further testing for my list I plan on bringing to NOVA and hopefully not getting stomped.  My list below and I'll show you my matchups.  It was only a 3 round event.

 

Skyport: Mhornar, Realm: Hysh

Extra Amendment: These Are Just Guidelines

 

Admiral - General, Opportunistic Privateers

Khemist - Lens of Refraction

Navigator

10x Arkanaut Company /w Skyhooks

10x Arkanaut Company /w Skyhooks

10x Arkanaut Company /w Skyhooks

10x Grundstok Thunderers

6x Endrinriggers /w 2 Volley guns

Ironclad - Volley Cannon, Maelefic Skymines

Ironclad - Volley Cannon

 

First Matchup: Legions of Nagash - Major Victory - Knife to the Heart

Played against this opponent in a previous tournament and lost, but had a great game with a fun opponent.  He took a large blob of skellies, zombies, 10 Black Knights, Prince Vordrai, and Nagash.  Had a great guidelines roll to be able to roll 1's against flying units.  Took first turn, ran up, assassinated Nagash and took Vordrai down to half wounds.  After that it was a lot of jumping around and taking out units at a time.  The knights hit hard, but I was able to tank it with the Ironclad and Khemist (sapping attacks).

 

Second Matchup: Ironjawz - Major Loss - Places of Arcane Power

This one was tough due to the speed.  He ran 2 Warchanters, an allied ork warboss on wyvern, and 30 Gore-Gruntas.  It was a bloody fight and we ended up with maybe a handful of minis on each side, but he was able to cap a point over me.  My shots weren't connecting like I'd like either and my Guideline roll was useless unfortuately.

Third Matchup: Ironjawz - Major Victory - Shifting Objectives

Another Ironjawz player with a different setup and a better mission in my favor.  He ran an Ironfist battalion with a big unit of 'ard boyz, 6 gruntas, 10 brutes, a shaman, 2 warchanters, maw krusha, and foot-boss.  He shot up fast and was able to make contact with one Ironclad first turn, however I was able to take the double and start cutting down greenskins.  I was able to swing the points in my favor by jumping on objectives as quick as possible with Endrinriggers and Ironclads. 

 

Overall, I find the Ironclads to be fantastic distractions for the rest of the army to stay safe.  Endrinriggers I've been using as a suicide unit to run up, shoot a ton, and tie down a unit as quick as possible.  The rest is unit selection with thunderers and skyhooks/volley cannnons.  I'm excited to see how it does at NOVA soon.