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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

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5 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I'm really thinking now: 1 ironclad or 2 frigates??????

Until the Ironclad goes down in points(IF it goes down) I'd say two Frigates. Unless you want to run the Iron Sky command battalion for whatever reason.

Two Frigates gives you more board presence, two distraction carnifexes, you don't put all your eggs in one basket, more total wounds, and they out-shoot the Ironclad on average.
Their downside is a lot more army-drops(but you were likely going second versus most armies anyway), and that their random damage/shooting can and WILL under-preform at some point because this is a dice game.

The Ironclad has the benefits of reliable shooting, better endrin-works, and slightly less drops(if you take the battalion you might have a chance of going first if you wanted to).
And of course it's also one of the best models in the whole damn game, but that does not give it a strategical advantage sadly.

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Barak-Zilfin

Sky squadron 120

Frigate 250

Frigate 250

Frigate 250

Gunhauler 150

Admiral 140

2 Emdrinmasters 200

Navigator 100

10 arcanauts 90

10 arcanauts 90

10 arcanauts 90

6 riggers/wardens

The idea is to throw admiral, endrinmasters and riggers/wardens into one target and 3 frigate with gunhauler into other.

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+++ Mod Hat On +++
Ive been reading through the last few pages of this topic and not over the moon about some of the comments here. Can I remind you, that you voice your opinion about things as long as they are constructive, aren’t overly negative, and aren’t insulting to anybody. 
 

I get some of you aren’t happy with some of the changes, but that’s no excuse to behave in this way. I have issued warning to some of you. Please just try and be constructive if you want to discuss things you don’t like. 

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22 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I'm really thinking now: 1 ironclad or 2 frigates??????

Both choices are viable. But your roster will play differently. Ironclade better for aggressive alfastrike tactic, frigates for more board control. IMHO

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52 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Maybe fun,but 490 poins for  11 atacks of 2 damage?? That isnt even close to horrible it is umplayable.

A unit of fyreslayers berzerkers cost 120 and put 5 attacks of 2 damage,so we bring 2 units(240 points) and we have the same damage output that you idea but for around 300 less points,and are so much tanky and dont waste hero slot or artifact neither comand trait.

 

I see kharadrons as a mid tier at best(6-15 position). This tome havent nothing that be VERY competitive at mathammer,melles are bad and shooting units are bad also if we compare it to other tomes shooting units.

Also it dont have any gimmick as every god tier army have(free sumon,allways attack first,some unit attack twice etc)

Yes this tome isnt bad,it have many fun things,and every unit is "good" but it isnt even close to t1 army and better ignore god tier armys.

Only i can see this tome doing something in tournaments thanks to the great map control that gonna have now,but if this is enough to compesate have worse warscrolls than the enemy it is soon to know.

Hmm, yeah, maybe not something that would work. Probably too fragile. Honestly, I don't think there's anything in our book that can compare with Hearthguard Berserkers for damage output efficiency, except for maybe Barak Zon Skywardens on the charge. And the damage gap isn't quite as big as you might think. My quick math gets 18 damage vs a 4+ save from my example (including the ranged attacks) vs 24 for the Berserkers. And it's  likely that you wouldn't get all 20 Berserkers in range. If only 15 Berserkers got to swing, damage output is about the same. That's comparing the buffed up Gunhauler & Heroes vs unbuffed Berserkers. And obviously the Berserkers are super tanky.

Your gunhauler has retreat/fly high abilities, and can still shoot after or could heal itself. You definitely couldn't just throw it into combat and hope for the best, but for countercharging specific units or taking out isolated enemies before redeploying, I don't think it would be horrible as a monster hunter or something like that. Or take just the boat & Admiral, make your own skyport, and pick the command trait that gives the admiral double damage vs a specific enemy, and  for under 300 points you have a mobile shooting unit that can become a pretty lethal assassin if the opportunity arises.

 

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35 minutes ago, GDD said:

Until the Ironclad goes down in points(IF it goes down) I'd say two Frigates. Unless you want to run the Iron Sky command battalion for whatever reason.

Two Frigates gives you more board presence, two distraction carnifexes, you don't put all your eggs in one basket, more total wounds, and they out-shoot the Ironclad on average.
Their downside is a lot more army-drops(but you were likely going second versus most armies anyway), and that their random damage/shooting can and WILL under-preform at some point because this is a dice game.

The Ironclad has the benefits of reliable shooting, better endrin-works, and slightly less drops(if you take the battalion you might have a chance of going first if you wanted to).
And of course it's also one of the best models in the whole damn game, but that does not give it a strategical advantage sadly.

Ironclad is far better for re roll saves as 3+ and it’s only one unit per phase (so one frigate can always get killed easily) then add in possibility for two gold shares on the ironclad may bring the ironclad back into the competition. I am liking the changes so far as it feels to me as if nearly everything is playable. 
 

also I feel KO will want to play second most of the time to prevent being double turned and for potential double turns. opponents who are savvy to this will make KO play first unless they feel they can take an unassailable lead by playing first (armies with lots of bodies and hard to shift). We still would want lower drops if possible but for playing second and hopefully faq puts ships back to old way of 1 drop including passengers. 

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55 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Imo, 1 Ironclad AND 2 frigates. This is the way.

I didn't want a Mandalorian answer! lol

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2 hours ago, cofaxest said:

I was thinking about skyhooks but with reroll tohit rolls you can do nice amount of mw with drills against one target. But it needs to be tested.

Then maybe putting drills in one unit of 12 skywardens would be better? You got gold and it`s easier to buff one unit.

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

And to add to the arkanauts conversation. I haven’t seen anybody mentioning their glory seeker rule. They seem to be made to hold objectives now. 

Yeah, played 1250 pts game vs. Gloomspite, when stabbas were going my way it looked bad, but you now what? 20 Arkanauts close to objective with using gold to reroll wounds have better shooting (in close range of course) than old 20 Arkanauts with 6 skyhooks buffed by Aether Khemist.

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I will make room for Thundrik's Profiteers in my TE list, they have a lot of damage output between them, with better save than handgunners. Rerolling ones when buffed by a Hurricanum and Hawk eyed is also tasty.

I was somewhat exited for the Thunderers, but a bit less so now, don't think they will perform as well as the above and are about the same price and wounds.

Edrinriggers do seem to add the rend -2 that Cities lacks so dearly, but I am unsure if they will be worth the dollar cost.

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4 minutes ago, Boar said:

Then maybe putting drills in one unit of 12 skywardens would be better? You got gold and it`s easier to buff one unit.

Or 3 drills and 1 hook)

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3 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

Or 3 drills and 1 hook)

Yep, bonus to charge is always nice.

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

How good a double SCE comet could be in a KO list?

Start at 31" of any other enemy mage. Use bottle to throw the comet. Do damage with it. Unbind it with the navigator. After that, use your alied incantor to summon it again and do damage again.

Bit crazy but maybe could be fun. 

Dispelling endless spells only happens at the start of the Hero Phase.

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24 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

I am liking the changes so far as it feels to me as if nearly everything is playable. 

Yeah don't get me wrong -the Ironclad certainly isn't bad, it just seems to me that two Frigates will out preform/compete it ever so slightly.

25 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

also I feel KO will want to play second most of the time to prevent being double turned and for potential double turns. opponents who are savvy to this will make KO play first unless they feel they can take an unassailable lead by playing first (armies with lots of bodies and hard to shift). We still would want lower drops if possible but for playing second and hopefully faq puts ships back to old way of 1 drop including passengers. 

Completely agree. If we go first we could seriously hurt some armies who rely on their heroes. However if we go second we can hide our ships in a corner and have a better chance at killing those heroes/monsters in case of a double turn.

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Warscrolls have updated on the GW website!

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Brokk-Grungsson-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Frigate-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Company-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Ironclad-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Bjorgen-Thundrik-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Thundriks-Profiteer-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Aetheric-Navigator-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Aether-Khemist-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinmaster-with-Endrinharness-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Grundstok-Thunderers-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinriggers-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Skywardens-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Grundstok-Gunhauler-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Admiral-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinmaster-with-Dirigible-Suit-en.pdf

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2 hours ago, Walrustaco said:

So why is it that the aethermatic volley gun has a different range depending on which unit is wielding it? I get having different hit rolls but... 

Screenshot_20200106-185802_Gallery.jpg.ba16390a80dcb08323cb9c5f59a0fbc9.jpgScreenshot_20200106-185819_Gallery.jpg.64267a169af1d5ef11d52b4706b9186b.jpgScreenshot_20200106-185952_Gallery.jpg.a4224384c11876151412e400f2533bc4.jpgScreenshot_20200106-185941_Gallery.jpg.fdb3caa1ac17a8037495d791206d6c2c.jpg

The most offending one to me is comparing the Arkanaut Company and Thundrik's Profiteers. Both models are privateers with the same gun, why the 6" discrepancy? Is Enrik Ironhail that bad of a dude?

MY guess is more stable shooting platform but I’m unsure if this logic stands well in reality 

my second (more accurate) guess is a way to balance out arks on objectives. Giving them less reach means they have less board presence and as such can’t abuse long range plus 1 to hits

its a little unwarranted as it’s 1 weapon but I understand the strength as a person who has used melee armies. For instance on the siege scenario, a melee army can’t leave their unattended (especially when our whole army can attack it potentially) so they need to literally give up use of some of their army just to keep the objective. With guns you can add damage and keep objectives. So range needs to be controlled to a point where it’s fair.

 

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32 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I will make room for Thundrik's Profiteers in my TE list, they have a lot of damage output between them, with better save than handgunners. Rerolling ones when buffed by a Hurricanum and Hawk eyed is also tasty.

I was somewhat exited for the Thunderers, but a bit less so now, don't think they will perform as well as the above and are about the same price and wounds.

Edrinriggers do seem to add the rend -2 that Cities lacks so dearly, but I am unsure if they will be worth the dollar cost.

But thunderers do scale where tundrik privateers do not. But that’s of course completely up to your list design. But with only one in four KO in a tempest list it’s something to consider. 
endrinriggers do fit the playstyle of tempest eye I feel. +3 move and save turn one. That’s a 15” fly move + charge. If you get a fast general there is the run and charge trait. Or a fast mage for the +1 attack if that’s your thing. 

but the privateers are a solid choice no matter what. Plus fun models to paint and cheap

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12 hours ago, Kramer said:

So basically the game plan is remove threat first turns, get the points late game. the list is very cool don’t get me wrong. Personally wouldn’t want to paint that many balloon boys ;)  but would love to play against it. And the all in on endrinriggers vs some skywardens is for the heals I assume? 

Get the big threats when I can, score points for killing, clear off objectives as I go and send in a rigger unit to claim them. Even with ranged weapons our riggers will still have 2 saw attacks in melee! I think I might do msu Endrinriggers and just plan to lose deployment every game. 

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51 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I will make room for Thundrik's Profiteers in my TE list, they have a lot of damage output between them, with better save than handgunners. Rerolling ones when buffed by a Hurricanum and Hawk eyed is also tasty.

I was somewhat exited for the Thunderers, but a bit less so now, don't think they will perform as well as the above and are about the same price and wounds.

Edrinriggers do seem to add the rend -2 that Cities lacks so dearly, but I am unsure if they will be worth the dollar cost.

I rather like the profiteers. That said, pretty sure that Thundrik and his posse count as two KO units in CoS, so you need 6 other units to balance out. Thaaat said I like them in Barack Thyng as additional KO units to let you have more other duardin.

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5 minutes ago, Nick907 said:

I think I might do msu Endrinriggers and just plan to lose deployment every game. 

Although I’m not building lists until I have the book, planning to not have the choice seems a fair bet. So a list that can set up conservatively but through flying speed or fly high still be a threat no matter what they choose. 

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1 minute ago, Nick907 said:

Get the big threats when I can, score points for killing, clear off objectives as I go and send in a rigger unit to claim them. Even with ranged weapons our riggers will still have 2 saw attacks in melee! I think I might do msu Endrinriggers and just plan to lose deployment every game. 

Heck opponents might take first turn in order to set up buffs on important characters.

tzeentch has a look out sir spell, if they give you first turn they may end up losing a key caster like the gaunt summoner.

some armies have command abilities they can’t use till their hero phase that help their army tons, and caster armies will be thinking about whether they want to lose those casters.

i can see off the top of my head several scenarios where the opponent would want to go first against us

when they have a token caster and an important endless spell/first turn buff spell (in some cases an armies alpha strike is tied to a spell, such is the case with ironjaws infantry and S2D)

when they are playing tzeentch, skaven, or seraphon (oh god their frogs will be terrified. That is literally game over for summoning lists)

anyone who has an important piece you could potentially remove. The god level characters aren’t that hard to remove. 16 wounds and a 3 up save is totally doable with the right list (ded gordrak) allarielle is quite squishy for her points as well. Archaon is a little harder but it’s doable even then.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, plavski said:

Warscrolls have updated on the GW website!

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Brokk-Grungsson-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Frigate-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Company-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Ironclad-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Bjorgen-Thundrik-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Thundriks-Profiteer-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Aetheric-Navigator-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Aether-Khemist-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinmaster-with-Endrinharness-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Grundstok-Thunderers-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinriggers-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Skywardens-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Grundstok-Gunhauler-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Admiral-en.pdf

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Endrinmaster-with-Dirigible-Suit-en.pdf

Thank you. So I can continue my mathammer quest tomorrow.

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15 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

anyone who has an important piece you could potentially remove. The god level characters aren’t that hard to remove. 16 wounds and a 3 up save is totally doable with the right list (ded gordrak) allarielle is quite squishy for her points as well. Archaon is a little harder but it’s doable even then

Add to that you set up outside ironjawz charge range his best choice is to take turn one just to win the ties for turn two? Because a round of shooting will happen when you decide. 
Allarielle can hide her army behind the woods all she wants but we shoot over it due to fly.* again set up conservatively with some screens and no choice of hers is a good one. 
Archaon in ever chosen knowing the turn order is tricky though. 
And a big question, if you’re competitive minded, is can you kill a petrifax katakros ? And that second keeper of secrets? 
 

 

* do garrisoned Units count as flying? For wyldwood line of sight purposes for example. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Add to that you set up outside ironjawz charge range his best choice is to take turn one just to win the ties for turn two? Because a round of shooting will happen when you decide. 
Allarielle can hide her army behind the woods all she wants but we shoot over it due to fly.* again set up conservatively with some screens and no choice of hers is a good one. 
Archaon in ever chosen knowing the turn order is tricky though. 
And a big question, if you’re competitive minded, is can you kill a petrifax katakros ? And that second keeper of secrets? 
 

 

* do garrisoned Units count as flying? For wyldwood line of sight purposes for example. 

I‘d say RAW yes, because the garrison rule says that you measure distances and check line of sight from the model of the garrison. And since the „garrison“ can see because of FLY the garrisoned units should be able to do so too. But needs a clarification imo.

 

Edit: I think nobody can really kill a Katakros (petrifex doesnt matter as he is getting +1 save from his own ability, not petrifex) if the OBR player is doing it right. Cover will grant him a 1+ rerolling 1s with mystic shield and Immortis Guard can do wound shrug. Then theres look out sir! and his built in –1 to hit on a keytarget (eg Ironclad or w/e). 

He is 700 points though with those Immortis, so you are better of focussing down the rest of the army, ignoring him. (CP stealing can hurt, so does constant –1 to hit for a unit) but he is the tankiest character in this game at the moment. 

Youre better off just destroying the other 1300 points of OBR, then he has 4 models left that cant win him the game. Thats btw how you should deal with most tanky models, try to avoid them (eg use Navigator halve movement on things that fly like Gordrakk or Archaon) 

KO shooting is most efficient vs 4+/5+ Save, 3+ can get very dicey (aka heartbreaking if a 6 dmg canonball gets shrugged on a 5+. at which point you are better of using the shrapnel for volume of attacks)

 

Priority list against OBR should be:

1. Units > Heros

2. Units that are not protected by a Harvester

3. fastest first

4. Harvesters

5. Rest

 

I‘d actually don‘t be worried about facing most OBR lists, as the healing is limited and expensive (Katakros/Arkhan being the best and still just reviving a max. of 6 wounds) while the major threats are too slow while being too expensive to really cause problems. 

+ their best shooting (aka catapult of doom) straight up sucks against KO now

(as you can predict their main target and just use gold for save reroll with a 3+ save most of the time)

Edited by Phasteon
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So what do we think the go to arkanaut company load out is now?? I'm thinking volley gun & skyhook per 10 man 

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1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

MY guess is more stable shooting platform but I’m unsure if this logic stands well in reality 

my second (more accurate) guess is a way to balance out arks on objectives. Giving them less reach means they have less board presence and as such can’t abuse long range plus 1 to hits

its a little unwarranted as it’s 1 weapon but I understand the strength as a person who has used melee armies. For instance on the siege scenario, a melee army can’t leave their unattended (especially when our whole army can attack it potentially) so they need to literally give up use of some of their army just to keep the objective. With guns you can add damage and keep objectives. So range needs to be controlled to a point where it’s fair.

 

Fair assessment. Wish they'd at least given them different names then. Like Aethermatic Rotor Cannon or something for the better ones.

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