AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[mikethefish]

19 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I don't think mercs are worth using...in any faction no matter what mercs. With how GW points AoS sacrificing that many points for a situational gimmick isnt a good idea. For narrative sure but for a points based match nope. If AoS was pointed like 40k then it could work 

Rampagers are absolutely worth using, and are not a gimmick.  At least that is my take.

I disagree that 40k points are somehow more accurate, but that's another discussion.

[WatcherintheWater]

On 6/29/2019 at 10:30 AM, mikethefish said:

the best Mercenaries of the new GHB (especially for our army) seems to be the Rampagers.

💯 % agree. I was thinking about putting 40 dwarf warriors in my list to protect my big arkanaut unit and get bodies on objectives. Swapping those out for 40 marauders saves enough points for another 3 Endrinriggers or a Knight Incantor  (basically).

Edited June 30, 2019 by WatcherintheWater

[Mcthew]

Help... I need some 'bearded' TLC!

I've just returned from a 1,000 point game against a friend's Skaventide, which I won on victory points. However, it's a game I feel I lost.

A bit of background: I ran with a handful of arkie companies, a trio of endriggers, a couple of heroes, and because of that hefty discount, I went with a frigate and gunhauler. And damn if they didn't look good, even against the scurrying hordes of clanrats and doomwheels.

Heck, I'd even say they looked magnificent, and that's part of the problem. Kharadron look so good, but hit like pansies.

My companies did fair damage (wiped out a unit of rat ogres and stormfiends) before losing two thirds of their strength, and I won the game due to camping on objectives as long as feasibly possible. But to be honest, if my friend was more experienced, he would have wiped the floor with me by round four.

A combination of lousy dice rolls, and lousier warscrolls did for me in some respects, as it did my enjoyment of the game. But it was the frigate and gunhauler that were the biggest waste of points. I mean, 130 points is still too much for a blob of wounds that does naff all, likewise for the frigate. In 5 rounds, I managed to damage something just once with both great cannons. Once man! Sure, I had some unlucky dice rolls, but in one battle if you are in range from the get-go, a great cannon can shoot 5 times a game. So I had 10 chances! I hit twice, (failed 1 wound roll) so managed 3 wounds from D6 damage on the one successful hit and wound roll I made, before the frigate was nuked out of existence by stormfiends and the archwarlock. Then the gunhauler was overwhelmed by clanrats. 

But you know, when you look at the scroll, that really is the best it can do, 'cos carbines and belaying valves and all the other shiny rubbish that comes with a frigates and gunhaulers are as effective (and as fun) as trying to play golf with a tennis racket.

I have been tempted - so very tempted - to go back to investing in Kharadron, but they just feel broken to me, regardless of the point changes. They feel like an embarrassment for AoS (a shooty army in a game that's weighted towards melee combat). They look great though. Really good. So it's a torment.

There's so much GW could do to get the balance right (short range on the privateer pistols, a +1 modifier to hit with the great cannons if the frigate hasn't moved etc etc), but I can't see GW bringing out a battletome for some time for KOs. And I won't be buying any new gunhaulers or frigates just cos the points have gone down (they're still rubbish and will still cost around £30 -£50 to buy something that's no fun playing with).

The skaven, on the other hand, despite being suicidal and having manic tendencies, did look like fun. 

And recently, you know... I have been drawn towards cheese products over a good pint of mead...

Squeak...

Edited June 30, 2019 by Mcthew

[Entombet]

2 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Help... I need some 'bearded' TLC!

I've just returned from a 1,000 point game against a friend's Skaventide, which I won on victory points. However, it's a game I feel I lost.

A bit of background: I ran with a handful of arkie companies, a trio of endriggers, a couple of heroes, and because of that hefty discount, I went with a frigate and gunhauler. And damn if they didn't look good, even against the scurrying hordes of clanrats and doomwheels.

Heck, I'd even say they looked magnificent, and that's part of the problem. Kharadron look so good, but hit like pansies.

My companies did fair damage (wiped out a unit of rat ogres and stormfiends) before losing two thirds of their strength, and I won the game due to camping on objectives as long as feasibly possible. But to be honest, if my friend was more experienced, he would have wiped the floor with me by round four.

A combination of lousy dice rolls, and lousier warscrolls did for me in some respects, as it did my enjoyment of the game. But it was the frigate and gunhauler that were the biggest waste of points. I mean, 130 points is still too much for a blob of wounds that does naff all, likewise for the frigate. In 5 rounds, I managed to damage something just once with both great cannons. Once man! Sure, I had some unlucky dice rolls, but in one battle if you are in range from the get-go, a great cannon can shoot 5 times a game. So I had 10 chances! I hit twice, (failed 1 wound roll) so managed 3 wounds from D6 damage on the one successful hit and wound roll I made, before the frigate was nuked out of existence by stormfiends and the archwarlock. Then the gunhauler was overwhelmed by clanrats. 

But you know, when you look at the scroll, that really is the best it can do, 'cos carbines and belaying valves and all the other shiny rubbish that comes with a frigates and gunhaulers are as effective (and as fun) as trying to play golf with a tennis racket.

I have been tempted - so very tempted - to go back to investing in Kharadron, but they just feel broken to me, regardless of the point changes. They feel like an embarrassment for AoS (a shooty army in a game that's weighted towards melee combat). They look great though. Really good. So it's a torment.

There's so much GW could do to get the balance right (short range on the privateer pistols, a +1 modifier to hit with the great cannons if the frigate hasn't moved etc etc), but I can't see GW bringing out a battletome for some time for KOs. And I won't be buying any new gunhaulers or frigates just cos the points have gone down (they're still rubbish and will still cost around £30 -£50 to buy something that's no fun playing with).

The skaven, on the other hand, despite being suicidal and having manic tendencies, did look like fun. 

And recently, you know... I have been drawn towards cheese products over a good pint of mead...

Squeak...

Need to w8 for book

[Reuben Parker]

Not really needing to wait for a new book, the ships need to be run in either an escort wing or Mhornar as the plus and or re roll makes them far More reliable. 

Also yes it’s a cannon and that evokes cool mental images but they’re not really primary damage dealers. Arkanaut, riggers and gun wardens all buffed by khemist are KOs main damage output. Ships are more skirmish units / drop reduction. 

[Mcthew]

2 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Not really needing to wait for a new book, the ships need to be run in either an escort wing or Mhornar as the plus and or re roll makes them far More reliable. 

Also yes it’s a cannon and that evokes cool mental images but they’re not really primary damage dealers. Arkanaut, riggers and gun wardens all buffed by khemist are KOs main damage output. Ships are more skirmish units / drop reduction. 

Yep - only reason I won was down to skyhook buffs from the khemist. 

For a 1k pt battle, I find warscroll battalions impractical although changing my skyport may have helped. Even then the damage dealt by 350 pts of model was pretty awful, and wouldn't be much better with re-rolls. My opponent loved the look of the ships but found them pathetic in the game (a definite turn off, in case GW are reading this). 

And I know comparing KO to other factions opens me to a world of hurt, but hey I'm hurting!

[Reuben Parker]

Yeah 1K is a bit of a funny spot really for a lot of armies I find. 

At 2k I think with new points all ships are viable. 

3 and 1 in an escort wing, 2-3 frigates in a squadron or an ironclad with no battalion (normally Barak Urbaz for double artifact and mass khemist buff).

As a base every KO list is probably going to have minimum 40-50 arkanaut and 1-2 khemist so that’s a huge chunk at 1k. 

[WatcherintheWater]

It’s tough to compare vs Skaven, since they are one of the strongest armies at the moment.

For a 1k game (unless you are against another soft list) I would never take more than 1 ship.  A frigate makes most 1k lists 2 drops, so you usually will get to decide who goes first. And if you pick Zilfin it let’s you deep strike almost your whole army. The ships are never going to make points back on their own, and unfortunately I think they provide diminishing returns if you take more than 1 and don’t go with a battalion.

Edited June 30, 2019 by WatcherintheWater

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Yep - only reason I won was down to skyhook buffs from the khemist. 

For a 1k pt battle, I find warscroll battalions impractical although changing my skyport may have helped. Even then the damage dealt by 350 pts of model was pretty awful, and wouldn't be much better with re-rolls. My opponent loved the look of the ships but found them pathetic in the game (a definite turn off, in case GW are reading this). 

And I know comparing KO to other factions opens me to a world of hurt, but hey I'm hurting!

For me playing KO is about the objectives. So you winning on objectives is a good thing in my view. 

But my conclusions after a year are that the three things to go big on (and usually can't fit more than two of them in)
- Big units of Arkanauts with a Khemist
- Bigger units of Endrinriggers with a Khemist
- Dropping in a Frigate with Thunderers to claim early objectives and if needed using their retreat move to do so. 

I really like option two and three as it requires a bit more tactical play on the movement side. Not to say that the big unit of arkanauts isn't a tactical. But less the playstyle I like. Watch this batrep for inspiration (at least really inspired me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XyZKXp-kU&t=4296s

Just a couple of things I'm currently looking to try out and see if it competes with any of the above options are:
- Someone here suggested a screen (dwarven warriors I believe) with Skywardens 2" behind them so they are tagged when the screen is charged. With the point reduction on the Skywardens it has become more interesting to me. So big block of arkanauts, skywardens and then dwarven screen front and centre. Take the charge. Maybe flee over the unit for some objective grabbing and movement shenanigans  afterwards or stay the extra turn to delay a charge. 
- Big Escort wing. In combination with (I think) Thryng to fit in an extra Frigate. 
- Brokk in any lists. He will outshout the Frigate as mobile gunplatform and has combat potential. (Almost done painting him, Yeah! )
- Allying in 10 hearthguard and a runesmiter. Super durable deepstriking unit, is just what we need. Only worry is that the points changes to Fyreslayers are not yet known. So maybe it will have to be a unit of vulkite bezerkers instead. 
- Allying in 2 cannons and a cogsmith for an ultimate gunline, just for fun! 

Hope this helps to give you something fun to try out. 👍

 

[Mcthew]

6 minutes ago, Kramer said:

For me playing KO is about the objectives. So you winning on objectives is a good thing in my view. 

But my conclusions after a year are that the three things to go big on (and usually can't fit more than two of them in)
- Big units of Arkanauts with a Khemist
- Bigger units of Endrinriggers with a Khemist
- Dropping in a Frigate with Thunderers to claim early objectives and if needed using their retreat move to do so. 

I really like option two and three as it requires a bit more tactical play on the movement side. Not to say that the big unit of arkanauts isn't a tactical. But less the playstyle I like. Watch this batrep for inspiration (at least really inspired me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XyZKXp-kU&t=4296s

Just a couple of things I'm currently looking to try out and see if it competes with any of the above options are:
- Someone here suggested a screen (dwarven warriors I believe) with Skywardens 2" behind them so they are tagged when the screen is charged. With the point reduction on the Skywardens it has become more interesting to me. So big block of arkanauts, skywardens and then dwarven screen front and centre. Take the charge. Maybe flee over the unit for some objective grabbing and movement shenanigans  afterwards or stay the extra turn to delay a charge. 
- Big Escort wing. In combination with (I think) Thryng to fit in an extra Frigate. 
- Brokk in any lists. He will outshout the Frigate as mobile gunplatform and has combat potential. (Almost done painting him, Yeah! )
- Allying in 10 hearthguard and a runesmiter. Super durable deepstriking unit, is just what we need. Only worry is that the points changes to Fyreslayers are not yet known. So maybe it will have to be a unit of vulkite bezerkers instead. 
- Allying in 2 cannons and a cogsmith for an ultimate gunline, just for fun! 

Hope this helps to give you something fun to try out. 👍

 

Brokk is someone who slipped thru the net somewhat! Cant believe I don't have Brokk and you're right, in any list.

So yeah, the next purchase is going to be that fella for sure!

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Brokk is someone who slipped thru the net somewhat! Cant believe I don't have Brokk and you're right, in any list.

So yeah, the next purchase is going to be that fella for sure!

Lovely model as well. Besides the taste question of course, but in a technical sense as well. It fits together so well, and a joy to paint as well. 

[Grudgebearer]

Do you guys think that the escort wing is going to be a staple for KO? Haven't had the chance to try it but it looks quite promising on paper 

[Reuben Parker]

10 hours ago, Grudgebearer said:

Do you guys think that the escort wing is going to be a staple for KO? Haven't had the chance to try it but it looks quite promising on paper 

Not really sure about staple as such, as KO have various ways to build their lists but I do think with new points it’s very much in the mix. My view is it has lower overall damage output compared to other lists but is better at board control and sniping objectives due to being able to go heavy on MSU and still be 3 drop and beat out any non super battalion armies. 

My feeling is that current KO lists will be mainly based around either 

IRon sky squadron (probably 2 frigates but with new points can do 3)

escort wing

or an ironclad based army

.....

the interesting thing with escort wing is I still can’t pick a best skyport from Mhornar, Thryng and Zilfin

No matter what you run with KO I still feel a blob of arkanaut with a khemist is required to be the primary damage dealers. 

[VascoPinto]

I was listening to the latest stormcast podcast this morning and the guest Emma Turner mentioned that she was working on several battleboxes to still come out. As I am eagerly awaiting the KO battletome I was wondering if perhaps KO could be part of a new battlebox. What do you guys think? Who would they be matched up against? What units would be included? Maybe something Kharadron will be teased on the 20th?   

Edited July 3, 2019 by VascoPinto

[Beliman]

On 6/30/2019 at 11:28 PM, Kramer said:

For me playing KO is about the objectives. So you winning on objectives is a good thing in my view. 

But my conclusions after a year are that the three things to go big on (and usually can't fit more than two of them in)
- Big units of Arkanauts with a Khemist
- Bigger units of Endrinriggers with a Khemist
- Dropping in a Frigate with Thunderers to claim early objectives and if needed using their retreat move to do so. 

I really like option two and three as it requires a bit more tactical play on the movement side. Not to say that the big unit of arkanauts isn't a tactical. But less the playstyle I like. Watch this batrep for inspiration (at least really inspired me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XyZKXp-kU&t=4296s

Just a couple of things I'm currently looking to try out and see if it competes with any of the above options are:
- Someone here suggested a screen (dwarven warriors I believe) with Skywardens 2" behind them so they are tagged when the screen is charged. With the point reduction on the Skywardens it has become more interesting to me. So big block of arkanauts, skywardens and then dwarven screen front and centre. Take the charge. Maybe flee over the unit for some objective grabbing and movement shenanigans  afterwards or stay the extra turn to delay a charge. 
- Big Escort wing. In combination with (I think) Thryng to fit in an extra Frigate. 
- Brokk in any lists. He will outshout the Frigate as mobile gunplatform and has combat potential. (Almost done painting him, Yeah! )
- Allying in 10 hearthguard and a runesmiter. Super durable deepstriking unit, is just what we need. Only worry is that the points changes to Fyreslayers are not yet known. So maybe it will have to be a unit of vulkite bezerkers instead. 
- Allying in 2 cannons and a cogsmith for an ultimate gunline, just for fun! 

Hope this helps to give you something fun to try out. 👍

 

100% agree.

But my main concern about KO still remains. We use ships...to harrass? To make some skirmish warfare? To lower the number of drops? 

Design behind the army is what it makes this army "bad". Of course we can fix this with Arkanauts blobs Light Skyhooks with Khemist and Endrinriggers with Khemist but I believe that we are not talking about what's competitive here.

[mikethefish]

Right, so I sort of accidentally came up with a list that has played well in my local group.

 

Mhornar sky port, Iron Sky Squadron

Admiral (opportunistic privateers), Khemist, Endrinmaster

3 min Arkanought units, 40 Rampagers (mercs)

2 Frigates

12 Endrinriggers

 

So I admit the Admiral and the Endrinmaster are included merely cause I just like them, rather than because they are super competitive.  If I were to run this at a major tournament, I would most likely rethink my Hero lineup to something a bit more serious.

That said, I really REALLY like the core of this list.  I stated this earlier - the Rampagers are wildly useful to certain Kharadron armies.  Just the ability to get 40 smelly barbarians on the front lines, charging forward, claiming ojecties, causing casualties, screening my shooters...just super useful.

My gaming group doesn't use Realm rules, so we all just stick with Artifacts from our own Tomes.  I have not yet worked out what Artifacts I want to use regularly.  Will do so with more experimentation.  But, so far, I have been impressed by how this list plays in actual games.  It's a decent KO list that actually used ships!  Who'd a thunk it?

So far I have been using proxies for the Marauders.  Not being a fan of proxies, I think I will shelve this list while I convert myself some (as the GW Marauders are absolutely terrible models).

Edited July 3, 2019 by mikethefish

[Beliman]

13 hours ago, mikethefish said:

So far I have been using proxies for the Marauders.  Not being a fan of proxies, I think I will shelve this list while I convert myself some (as the GW Marauders are absolutely terrible models).

I'm really curious how Rampagers works in your list. I have an eye on Warcry/Underworlds to make the Rampagers (Untamed beasts with Godsworn Hunt maybe?).

Btw, I'm still in love with Maneaters (I really hoped that the Firebelly was 0-1, I really like the look of 6 maneaters in the same unit)  but I'm using them like endrinriggers, and no model can beat the look of a flying dwarf...

[Kramer]

20 hours ago, Beliman said:

100% agree.

But my main concern about KO still remains. We use ships...to harrass? To make some skirmish warfare? To lower the number of drops? 

Design behind the army is what it makes this army "bad". Of course we can fix this with Arkanauts blobs Light Skyhooks with Khemist and Endrinriggers with Khemist but I believe that we are not talking about what's competitive here.

Yeah maybe I’m biased because of this but only after I read Gotrek and Felix on holiday KO started to come alive for me. And that’s when I started collecting them as part of my own infinite supply of stunties. 

For the people who haven’t read it I won’t spoil anything but story wise it was the narrative hook they had to arrive everywhere in the nick of time. Praag under siege? They drop into the burning city in an attempt to save it. Kislev in trouble, luckily that’s where we land. 

So for me the Ziflin ship does what it’s supposed to. It brings in this group of warriors into the think of things. And after that go after enemies of opportunity. So that’s what my frigate does. So I’m not mad about that. (Just a shame that we can’t fly in hearthguard  bezerkers )

Now again that’s my bias. I agree that it’s not the mobile gun line playstyle GW originally seemed to push. But I also don’t think it’s likely we’ll get that because the transport capability is such an unique feature it can’t become to powerful. But hey, They are still my favourite army to play at this moment. I’m more of a have a fun game with friends player rather than a tournament kind of guy. Although I will be taking them to a doubles game day in my store if all goes well soon. 

[Kramer]

23 hours ago, VascoPinto said:

I was listening to the latest stormcast podcast this morning and the guest Emma Turner mentioned that she was working on several battleboxes to still come out. As I am eagerly awaiting the KO battletome I was wondering if perhaps KO could be part of a new battlebox. What do you guys think? Who would they be matched up against? What units would be included? Maybe something Kharadron will be teased on the 20th?   

Because there are at least five new books coming (1 for every GA + sylvaneth) I can only see this happening if KO is the GA order one.... and I’m convinced that that’s going to be a light elf with a lot of beasts like the underworlds model. 

I just can’t imagine them releasing a new faction through underworlds first. So I expect them in a battle box vs the new death release. 

[Beliman]

8 minutes ago, Kramer said:

So for me the Ziflin ship does what it’s supposed to. It brings in this group of warriors into the think of things. And after that go after enemies of opportunity. So that’s what my frigate does. So I’m not mad about that. (Just a shame that we can’t fly in hearthguard  bezerkers )

Now again that’s my bias. I agree that it’s not the mobile gun line playstyle GW originally seemed to push. But I also don’t think it’s likely we’ll get that because the transport capability is such an unique feature it can’t become to powerful. But hey, They are still my favourite army to play at this moment. I’m more of a have a fun game with friends player rather than a tournament kind of guy. Although I will be taking them to a doubles game day in my store if all goes well soon. 

Transport is something unique and I love that!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't get me wrong, I love my KO.

But my problem with the ships is not about the transport, it's just that they need better sinergy with our army. Maybe is GW fault to make our fluff so awesome between fighting in/on our ships, ambushing from the sky with an entire fleet or even smuggling some "people" (not skyfarers) behind enemy lines... I don't care about how good we are, I'm still winning more than losing, but you get the point on what I'm saying.

[Malakithe]

What sort of list can Thunderers shine in? Im thinking an Escort Wing Core of some kind.

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

What sort of list can Thunderers shine in? Im thinking an Escort Wing Core of some kind.

Escort wing definitely got more interestingly with the point drops. A big squad getting +1 to hit, all rifles with a khemist, in a mhornar list should do a lot of work. Or maybe in a thryng list so you can spread your fire a bit. 

Both could do a lot of damage but I’ll leave the calculation to the more mathematical inclined people here. 

What about

skyport: thryngg 

khemist 140 - gryph feather charm (or similar defensive artefact

3x 10 arkanauts 

frigate + 3 gunhailers 590

20 thunderers + 6 skywardens 560

20 long beards 200

Escort wing 130

total: 1980

Idea is you will need something to protect your lines hence the long beards,  and your 6 skywardens + ships can push out to objectives mid game. All the while your arkanauts zone your back lines. 

Weaknesses are obviously low hero count, if you don’t kill enough your screwed. I think going hard on escort wing is cool because 4 ships and lots of thunderers. But I think you’re going to lose the objectives game. Hope to be wrong though 😁

[Luzgurbel]

In that kind of list in which you need protection for your lines, I'd go better with the Barbarian mercs rather the Longbeards. Double the wounds at the same price.

[Kramer]

34 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

In that kind of list in which you need protection for your lines, I'd go better with the Barbarian mercs rather the Longbeards. Double the wounds at the same price.

True and makes it possible to take up more room and do the advance. 

I guess it’s personal preference, and I haven’t tried the marauders outside of Slaanesh, but they fold quite easily. I’d rather have the 4+ re-rollable save with in build battleshock reduction vs. double the wounds at a 5+ and a 5 bravery. Add to that the loss of your first cp so to protect them you’d need to buy a cp for 50pts. 

I could see both sides of the argument. But I’d rather stay in theme which is really the deciding factor for me.  

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Escort wing definitely got more interestingly with the point drops. A big squad getting +1 to hit, all rifles with a khemist, in a mhornar list should do a lot of work. Or maybe in a thryng list so you can spread your fire a bit. 

Im liking Mhornar the more I reread it. Reroll hits against a unit then getting +1 to hit from Escort Wing could wipe enemy units of choice quickly. How about this? The 50 extra points is akward but can be used for another CP I guess.

Skyport: Barak-Mhornar
- Additional Footnote: Today's Foes Are Tomorrow's Customers
Aether-Khemist (140)
- General
- Trait: Opportunistic Privateers 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
Aether-Khemist (140)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
3 x Skywardens (100)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (180)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (180)
Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
Grundstok Gunhauler (130)
Arkanaut Frigate (200)
Grundstok Escort Wing (130)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 120