AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Kramer]

20 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Ahoy!

 

Doing the obligatory check in with a new gh coming out. My skydorfs have been firmly shelfed but I’d love reasons to feel like they can be at least casually competitive. 

 

I just dont see it getting done with points decreases. Not modest ones like we are getting. 

 

How cheap does our stuff need to get over the hurdles of;

 

1. Being a shooting army that is just not good at shooting. (Give me back damage 3 pls)

 

1B. They totally ruined the Thunderer’s warscroll. Used to be our main unit of offensive output that you built lists around and now it’s just a mess. Used to be a super diverse unit that opened up tactical options. 

 

I feel they should have made the rifles wound on 3+ after they decided you couldn’t take all of whichever gun you actually wanted after they said you could / caugh, anyway..

 

2. Ships just arnt that useful. Shooting is very lackluster, super swingy and not even good on the average.

 

2B. You can transport units but the only unit we have worth using is the endrinrigger and if you’re embarked, you arnt getting any use out of the endrinriggers offense.  

 

2C. Same with any of our hero’s abilities. It’s pretty cool you can spec anti magic but having to have your navigator be on the ground to be able to make his magic happen, it makes it tough when it should be thematic and awesome. 

 

3. No endless spells, even the generic ones. No magic at all, or even a prayer system to make up for it. 

 

3B. You can spec your whole army into shutting down magic, you might get pretty good at it but there is what I believe  is called opportunity cost, where you lose your re-rolls or your ability to deep strike from not taking the rules you would otherwise choose.

 

So even if you DO go anti magic, spend all the points, opportunity cost, boots on the ground, you don’t get a single bit of offense out of it. You can HOPEFULLY stop something. If you go anti magic with any other army, odds are youre at least getting casters (wizards or priests)out of it at the same time. 

 

So yeah, 140 points for a frigate does sound rediculous, but that is the only type of points decreases that would move the needle imo to make us even just casually competitive. 

 

Do these minor points decreases really mean much? Say you can buy an extra frigate now, it still only hits on a4+ and you better roll hot on your damage d6!

 

We still don’t have a badass melee unit to transport  (pls don’t say arkonaughts) with the boat in the first place. 

 

The problem isn’t cost, it’s mehanics.

 

Skywardens are cheaper but they are straight garbage compared to endrinriggers. Even if they were 60 points for 3 dudes, is it going to make their air mine thing hit on anything better than a 6? So it’s garbage even at a cheap price until we get a new book with fixed mechanics. 

 

I would LOVE to be wrong but I think it’s pretty obvious we need an actual new book or they need to seriously rethink some of these faq nerfs. 

 

Those garrison rules are legit, something like that could go like 90% of the way to fixing Kharadron, that and maybe endless “spells” and a prayer system ala Khorne. Boom, solid army, in theory.

 

You just don’t get there with modest points reductions  

 

Hope you guys can make it work!! Would love to hear how wrong I am!! Sorry for anything misremembered. 

Wont work, give up. 

[Grudgebearer]

 

@5kaven5lave

Looks like a solid list, I've been tinkering up a similar one just dropped the Navigator and the small squad of thunderers in favor of more arkanauts, running tue Full blob of 40. However, I'd be really interested in how the list is working out for you. What is your plan for the small thunderer squad?

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Grudgebearer

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

Wont work, give up. 

Man... really?? I get your disappointed, but let's not put folks down. 

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Man... really?? I get your disappointed, but let's not put folks down. 

Haha sorry was meant as a sarcastic remark but the core of truth in there is if you’re that negative about close to every unit... don’t start the army. It’s a set up for disappointment. You spend the money, the time, the effort and when you lose bad the first game you see all those points confirmed. 

I personally is think there is a lot of positives, but you need to work for it. It took me 10 games to get my first win and even now I lose against ‘“low tier” armies. So if you’re that negative going in, and that focussed on winning... I honestly wouldn’t advise starting KO. 

On the other hand, if you think they are cool no matter what and like playing the underdog I’m happy to offer up what I know and tried out. 

[Kramer]

10 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I’ll have a go!!

If anyone in the know has any thoughts on this I’d be very grateful. Will a Khemist, 14 Thunderers and the Endrinriggers be too big a deep strike in the Frigate to work properly? The Navigator is pure Rule of Cool by the way, think he’s a dude. 

Cheers!!

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

Skyport: Barak-Zilfin

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General
Aether-Khemist (160)
Aether-Khemist (160)

Battleline
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)

Units
12 x Endrinriggers (480)
15 x Grundstok Thunderers(300)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers(100)

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (240)

Total: 2120 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
 

Why not drop 3 endrinriggers to make it a 2K list? Will make it a lot easier to find pick up games and use it in a tournament if you ever get the chance. Or is it 2K with the new points as I see you don’t have the reduction in their? 

Dropping in the thunderers with a khemist is a solid tactic. It delays the opponent and gives your arkanauts the time to shoot. The endrinriggers are solid unbuffed but in such a big squad it might be worth considering skywardens instead. The pikes are 2” so you’ll get more attacks in. But more importantly it makes them less reliant on the khemist buff.  Which if you drop one in with the thunderers. Then you’ll have to choose buffing the endrinriggers or arkanauts.

If you go with 12 endrinriggers I would advise 2 grapnel hooks. Even if you charge you’re not likely to get them all in and the threat of 24” move will force your opponent to defend backfield objectives even after you dropped in the frigate. 

[Entombet]

Im really amazed ppl think that ghb would give ko other changes than point ones

[5kaven5lave]

@Grudgebearer @Kramer

Thanks for the feedback, I think it does work out at 2k with the drops. 

The 5 Thunderers would just be a little objective holding unit or a screen with their retreat in combat thing?

Would splitting the Endrinriggers into 2x6 work better?

Also, I’m still getting my head around the army and don’t have the Battletome, do I still get to pick an artefact and trait even if I take a Skyport?

[Kramer]

@Cauthon @mmimzie rightly called me on my negative response. So i'll try to respond more in depth. Your first question you answer yourself. You take a weak points and ask if a minor points decrease will fix it. But you're all comparing it to being the absolute top tier. No Thunderers aren't ruined by a long shot. Their not as broken as they were. But I will still everyday take 10 thunderers over 5 judicators for 20 points more. So no probably not the best shots in the game, not even with the points reduction. Can they still win you games, absolutely. 

And the above I would apply to point 1 to 3B.

Then you suggested the Frigate at 140 points and suggested it would the only reason, in your opinion, for US to take the Frigate. In my opinion, you absolutely get value out of the frigate. It's the only way to deepstrike a squad. Getting further upfield with a 4" movement army? Worth at least 180pts if not more. Same with the Soulscryer in Deepkin, I get the points raise because deepstriking is a valuable skill. So don't judge it as a mobile gun platform or transport. It's a big base drop ship. 

Then you wish for a badass melee unit. Ain't gonna happen with a GHB update... but further on you burn Skywardens to the ground for their skymine ability ignoring their 2" pike range etc. And I agree if you compare Endrinriggers with Skywardens, buffed Endrinriggers  are the preferred choice... Et Voila, you have your badass melee unit. And you get great mobility in exchange for a better save. And you can transport them... for free   

Lastly you sum up that you believe point changes aren't the way to go. And I (mostly) agree with you. If you want this army to be top tier, it will need to be re-written. If you want this army to be a fun underdog with unique mechanics and models, with a huge learning curve that have the potential to do very well... you are already there. 

I would invite you to take a look at the KO games at CanCon on YouTube for some inspiration. Yes, you will need to play exceptionally well and yes, you will need some luck. But it's provenly doable. So why not you? 

But the other side of that coin. If you were one of my mates, and you rocked up to me with that summary and asked me if I would advise you to get into KO. I would wholeheartedly say no. It's a set-up for disappointment. You play a melee orientated army and you lose... your mind will go back to what you perceive as the handicap of still not having a badass melee unit. You play Shoot-cast and they drop in and one shot you and you're back to being bummed about are 'inferior' shooting. And it will happen, you might get good enough to win some of those games anyway and compete in the ones you lose. But if you don't like being the underdog, or playing for the win is core of having fun for you, I wouldn't advice this army if that's your view coming in.

If you do love the models, crave that uphill struggle or if your local scene isn't that hardcore anyway. Welcome on board! The sun is shining and there are a lot of positives in my mind.

 

Quote

If anyone in the know has any thoughts on this I’d be very grateful. Will a Khemist, 14 Thunderers and the Endrinriggers be too big a deep strike in the Frigate to work properly? The Navigator is pure Rule of Cool by the way, think he’s a dude. 

@5kaven5lave I would give it a go with the Endrinriggers in there for a few games, but personally I gained more by keeping them back a turn. So drop in the thunderers, shoot with the khemist buff. Maybe charge and reposition if needed. Your opponent needs to commit something to deal with them. Then go in with the Endrinriggers. Either on their main force coming for you, or with their speed for the devision coming for the thunderers. 

But again give it both a few tries, because it can work. But I rather spend the CP on re-rolling 1’s to hit in shooting (new Generic Command ability) then re-rolling a 9+ charge. Hope this helps  

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kramer

[FractalRain]

18 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I’ll have a go!!

If anyone in the know has any thoughts on this I’d be very grateful. Will a Khemist, 14 Thunderers and the Endrinriggers be too big a deep strike in the Frigate to work properly? The Navigator is pure Rule of Cool by the way, think he’s a dude. 

Cheers!!

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

Skyport: Barak-Zilfin

Leaders
Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General
Aether-Khemist (160)
Aether-Khemist (160)

Battleline
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)

Units
12 x Endrinriggers (480)
15 x Grundstok Thunderers(300)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers(100)

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (240)

Total: 2120 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
 

Just wanted to state that based on the rumored points changes, your list will have more room!  Frigate supposedly down to 200 pts, Thunderers down to 8- pts (for 5), and Khemist back down to 140 pts.  

[Kramer]

11 minutes ago, FractalRain said:

Just wanted to state that based on the rumored points changes, your list will have more room!  Frigate supposedly down to 200 pts, Thunderers down to 8- pts (for 5), and Khemist back down to 140 pts.  

The changes as far as I could tell from the reviews are:

Gunhauler 130
Frigate 200
Ironclad 380
Khemist 140
Brokk 240
Thunderers 90
Skywardens 100

So correct on the frigate and khemist but Thunderers are 90 not 80 (or I misheard the guerilla guy.. which happens  )

[FractalRain]

9 minutes ago, Kramer said:

The changes as far as I could tell from the reviews are:

Gunhauler 130
Frigate 200
Ironclad 380
Khemist 140
Brokk 240
Thunderers 90
Skywardens 100

So correct on the frigate and khemist but Thunderers are 90 not 80 (or I misheard the guerilla guy.. which happens  )

Yes, thank you for the correction!  Fat finger error on the Thunderers.

 

[mmimzie]

So i wonder for KO why not run the deep strike frig, and bring lauchon with a knight incantor casting. 

 

Could pitentially run the frig with 15 thunders,  the knight incantor + lauchon (ghetto frig) with 20 thunderers, and a unit of 40 company with skyhooks??

Edited June 17, 2019 by mmimzie

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Recently got into KO because the models are just so GOOD! Rules however are poorly thought out and pale in comparison to newer books (for example hedonites who are my bread and butter) I honestly feel all we need are just a few tweaks to make us viable again without having to long bomb a clown car full of endrinriggers. 

1. Make the navigator able to do his things while embarked, he's the boa man, let him be on his boat!

2. Split the admirals rules into two different warscrolls, he can't seem to decide whether he wants to foot slog or support the ships.

3. Either make the main guns of the ships flat damage or keep the random damage but add a shoot twice rule (I'm thinking something similar to grinding advance for 40k leman russ tanks)

4. As a tau player in 40k i feel some mechanic that could give more reliable rerolls or a +1 to hit will help offset our 4+ to hit and make us more viable without ordinators or escort wing.

5. buff the ironclad to a 3+ save, so few models in it's price range have worse than a 3+ or 4+ with ward

 

Some wishlisting would also include a ship with multiple main guns instead of transport capacity or an "open top" ship that lets the transported troops shoot and use abilities while riding.

 

Regardless of all this I am enjoying the army and my local meta is lacking in shooting lists so they'll be a fun addition to my collection. I do enjoy the swingy nature of the army so if things don't get better for us I'll just use them casually and bust out the hedonites for tournaments.

[WatcherintheWater]

I went to a 5 game GT weekend before last. It's been over a week, so I'm sure some I got a few details wrong, but here is the summary of my games for anyone with the patience to read a big wall of text :).

My List: Barak-Urbaz.

Spoiler

 

Additional Footnotes: There’s no trading with some people & These are just guidelines

·       2x Khemists (general with Stickler for the Code and the Gryph-Feather Charm, 2^nd Khemist with the Earburster)

·       30 Arkanaut Company

·       2x10 Arkanaut Company

·       12 Endrinriggers w 3 Grapnels

·       9 Skywardens

·       30 Dwarf Warriors

 

Game 1 (Scorched Earth)

Spoiler

 

Opponent’s List: Legion of Grief – Knight of Shrouds on Steed, 2x20 Grimghast Reapers, 2x20 Bladegheist Revenants, 3x5 Wolves, I think another hero or two and a battalion that buffed the Reapers and Revenants.

Deployment: He spread his big units across the board and put a unit of Wolves behind on each objective. The Knight of Shrouds went behind some terrain way in the back. I put my Warriors spread across the board a few inches from the front of my deployment zone, the small Arkanaut Companies right behind on the side objectives, and the big unit on the middle, with the Endrinriggers to their right and the Skywardens to their left.

Summary: He took the first turn, failed all his casts, and then stayed castled up. I shuffled around a little to get my skyhooks in range of one of his Reaper units, and shot off about half. He won turn 2, cast his spells more successfully (including Cogs) and pushed forward with the big units and Wolves. I stayed on my objectives and shot off most of one of his big units and 1 of the units of Wolves. I won the turn 3 roll and decided to make my push. I moved everything into range and shot him down to one partial strength unit of Reapers and one of Revenants, grapneled my Endrinriggers onto his back left objective, and burned it. In his turn he sprung his trap. I didn’t realize that Legion of Grief could return destroyed units. (Not my opponents fault, he did tell me that they could use gravesites just like Legion of Nagash, I just didn’t process that it also meant returning destroyed units. Just a brain cramp on my end.) He summoned back the two destroyed units on the gravesite right in front of my army, and charged everything in. He rolled really high on his charges and with cogs, flew a bunch of stuff right over my Warrior screen, killed a bunch of stuff and took two of my objectives. He won the roll for turn 4, and we called it, since I would probably be left with just my Endrinriggers after his turn. Major Loss

What I could have done better:

·       To do well at a tournament, you really need to know the rules for your opponents as well as your own. I wasn’t familiar with Legion of Grief and paid for it.

·       I should have moved up to block out the gravesite close to me. Then he would have had to bring his units back in the gravesite in his deployment zone, and couldn’t have gotten those full-strength units to my side of the board until turn 4.

 

Game 2 (Focal Points)

Spoiler

 

Opponent’s List: Stormcast – Sureheart, Arcanum on a Gryph Charger, Lord Ordinator, 2 Ballista, 2x5 & 1x10 Sequitors, 1x5 & 1x10 Evocators. Battalion that boosted the Sequitors.

Deployment: He put the Ballistas, Ordinator, Sureheart, and the big Evocator unit in the sky. The Sequitors spread out towards the front of his deployment zone, and the Arcanum and small Evocator unit back behind them out of skyhook range. I put my warriors in a line at the front of my zone, one small Company behind them on each side, Endrinriggers with the small company on the left, Skywardens on the right. Big unit in the middle, with some models trailing back to prevent him from deepstriking behind me.

Summary: He gave me the turn. Warriors went forward to score the middle objective. Only Sequitors in range for the skyhooks. I rolled to well, and shot the unit of 10 off the board, so he just brought them back 9” from my front line! He dropped with his Ordinator and Balistas and shot off about half the Skywardens, while the returned Sequitors charged the warriors and started grinding through them, while the Skywardens killed only a couple in return. He pushed his up onto the middle objective, and took it after killing enough warriors. He won the turn 2 roll and dropped his big unit of Evocators with Sureheart and charged my left. He could only get half of his attacks into my Endrinriggers, because they were mostly screened by my Arkanauts, but killed the small Company and a few Endrinriggers, who killed several back. He got some more Sequitors into my warriors, and shot off the other small company, taking my right objective.

In my turn, I had the Endrinriggers fight in the hero phase, and between that and the normal combat took out Sureheart and the Evocators, securing that side and was able to kill enough Sequitors with shooting from my big unit to take back my right objective, but was pinned back and trailing on points. He won the turn 3 roll, and shot off my remaining Skywardens, moving up to retake my right objective, and charging a Sequitur unit into my big Company. In my turn, I shot off the 10 man Sequitors and one 5 man, and they both returned too, pretty much sealing the deal. I maneuvered around with the remaining Endrinriggers and score some in his territory, but it was too little too late. Major Loss

What I could have done better:

·       This is a tough match up for my list. Any army that can hide its important stuff on turn 1, make me go first without good targets, and then get a charge in their half of 1, really puts me on the back foot. It also hurt that he made every 5+ roll to return units to the board.

·       Target Priority – I probably spent too much time shooting at the Sequitors. I was really trying to get them off the objectives, but they kept coming back, and the Ballista did so much damage. Killing his heroes would also have prevented him from returning units

 

Game 3 (Total Commitment)

Spoiler

 

Opponent’s List: Khorne – 3 different Bloodthirsters, Slaughterpriest, Bloodstoker, Bloodsecretor, 20 Furies, and an assortment of Bloodrevers, Blood Warriors, and Wrathmongers. Battalion that boosted the Bloodreavers in combat.

Deployment: He basically had his stuff spread across his front line. I put my warriors a couple inches from the front of my zone, with the small Companies on each objective, supported by the Endrinriggers on the left and he Skywardens on the right, and the big Company in the middle.

Summary: He took the first turn and pushed everything forward. I went second and shot off 1 Bloodthirster and damaged some smaller units. I won the second turn, shot off one more Bloodthirster, damaged his last remaining one, and shot off a few other models. He charged on his turn 2, rolling a high charge that let him fly his remaining Bloodthirster over my warriors and combo charge several of my  units on the right. The Bloodthirster did an aura of mortal wounds on wound rolls of a 6 and was hitting several units each time. His other units all charged the warriors, with his remaining Furies and a unit of Bloodreavers threatening my left objective. I held onto the objectives this turn, but lost most of my Warriors, one small unit of company, and most of my Skywardens. He also killed one Khemist with the Blood Boil prayer. I won the turn 3 roll and tried to use the hero phase activation on my Endrinriggers, to try and wipe out the Furries and Bloodreavers near the left objective, but the Khemist buffing them was gone, and with some bad dice rolls, wasn’t able to do enough damage until the combat phase, meaning that they couldn’t fly away to threaten his objectives or help on my right. My big Company shot off the remaining Bloodthirster and most of his Wrathmongers, but not until he used Blood Tithe to let the Bloodthirster fight in the hero phase, kicking me off my right objective. In his turn he charged some chaff into my big Company to tie them up, and scored my right objective, going up by 4 points. I won the turn 4 roll, destroyed the rest of his army aside from a hero or two, and grapneled my Endrinriggers across the board to his right objective, but couldn’t get anything to take back my right objective that he still held, so he scored it in his turn. He also summoned some bloodletters 9” from my remaining small Arkanaut company, and made the charge to take that objective as well, clinching the game.

What I could have done better:

·       Feels like this is a match up I should have won, especially since I rolled lucky on priority. It was really close, though. Had his summoned Bloodletters failed their charge in turn 4, the turn 5 roll would have determined the game.

·       Overkill on the Bloodthirsters. Should have tried to spread out my fire a little more, rather than being 100% positive to take them out one at a time.

·       I should have swapped the deployment of my Endrinriggers & Skywardens. Because of the way terrain was laid out, I didn’t have a very good grapnel target with the Endrinriggers. I also should have just been more aggressive with them this game. We fought almost the whole time in my deployment zone, so there wasn’t much opportunity for me to score his objectives.

 

Game 4 (Better Part of Valor)

Spoiler

 

Opponent’s List: Sylvaneth – Treelord, Drycha, 2 small casters, 2x5 Tree Revenants, 20 Dryads, 2x3 Kurnoth Hunters, Sisters of the Thorn, Gemenids, and a battalion that let everyone cast an extra spell (I think)

Deployment: He put his initial Wildwoods right in the center of my deployment zone, on the middle objective, then dropped his Treelord and Drycha out of skyhook range on my left, the small casters behind some big terrain near his middle objective, the Sisters on his left objective, Tree-Revenants on the middle and right, the hunters near on his right, and the Dryad unit on his center-left. I put my big Company on my left objective (didn’t want them getting LOS blocked by the woods on my center), the small Companies on my center and right objectives, warriors spread across my front line, Endrinriggers center-left, and Skywardens near the right objective.

Summary: He gave me the first turn. I shifted a few inches forward, being sure to block him out from teleporting to the woods in my territory and shot off 10 or so Dryads and 1 Hunter. He dropped a woods in his deployment zone, and cast a spell to grow another in front of my big Company, and summoned some more Dryads (he did this most turns). He teleported the Treelord and a Dryad unit to 9” from the Warrior line, in front of my big company, and ran forward with his Hunters and Drycha, but failed the charges. He won the turn 2 roll and used the Wildwoods mortal wound spell to do a bunch of mortals throughout my army, and charged his Treelord, Drycha and some Dryads into my Warriors, while one of his Hunter units charged a small Company and my Skywardens. He wiped out the Warriors, and the Treelord used his 3” reach to take out ~10 of the big Company, but my Skywardens took him down to just 1 wounded Hunter left, which they would kill next turn. I used the hero phase shooting footnote, and between that and the normal shooting phase took out Drycha and the Treelord, while my Endrinriggers charged in and destroyed the Dryads.

I won turn 3, and my Skywardens charged and took out his 2^nd Hunter unit with some help from Arkanaut shooting, while the rest of my army re-consolidated to block out the wildwoods, and hold my objectives. He burned his right most objective (Skywardens would have taken it next turn) for 4 points. He won the turn 4 roll, and teleported his Tree-Revenants near my center and right objectives. They both made their charges, but only the one on the center took objective control. On my turn, I flew my Endrinriggers to near the center objective, where they shot off his revenants, then they grapneled to his left objective, where they destroyed his Sisters and took that objective. The Skywardens destroyed the revenants on my right objective. He teleported some dryads and a caster to the wildwoods near my center objective, and took that back in his turn, but it was too little by then, since I still had 2 objectives that I had held since turn 1. Major victory.

What I could have done better:

·       I should have spread out my small Company units, so that even if he charged he wouldn’t be on the objectives with his teleporting units.

·       Need to be careful of units with 3” reach, like the Treelord, since sometime they can reach over your screen and get to the stuff you are hiding.

·       My Khemist with the dispel was always a couple inches out of dispel range, and I never remembered to move him up. Measure that 30”!

 

Game 5 (Shifting Objectives)

Spoiler

 

Opponent’s List: Khorne – Skaarac the Bloodborn (big Forgeworld monster), Scyla, 3 Slaughterpriests, Bloodsecretor, 5 Khorgoraths, 2x5 Blood Warriors, 2x10 Bloodreavers, and Hexgorger Skulls. The Khorgoraths were part of a battalion that let them re-roll hits and wounds.

Deployment: He put his Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers up front, with the Khorgoraths behind them on the right, Skaarac behind them, the heroes a little further back in the center, and Scyla on the far left. I put my warriors in a line, the Arkanauts right behind them (big unit in the middle, smaller to each side), Skywardens on the right, Endrinriggers on the left.

Summary: He gave me the turn. I ran my warriors up, positioned my Wardens and Endrinriggers right behind them, and moved up 4” with my Arkanauts who damaged a Khorgorath and killed a unit of Bloodreavers. He rushed everything forward, but failed the only long charges he had (needed a 10 or so), and didn’t have enough bodies to score any objectives. I won turn 2, moved forward with everything again, shot off Skaarac, and did some other scattered damage. The Endrinriggers charged out, and killed a couple Khorgoraths. The warriors failed a short charge, which I didn’t bother to re-roll. He charged a couple units into the Endrinriggers, and everything else into my Warrior line, but again didn’t have enough bodies to score the objectives, and I did quite a bit of damage back. He won priority in turn 3, and took the Endrinriggers down to just a couple left, while continuing to grind through the Warriors.  He finally got Scyla into my backfield, charging a small Company, and one Khorgorath charged my other small company, but because of where I placed my Skywardens and how I removed my warriors, I still had more models near every objective. All I had to do in my turn was score 1 point, and he couldn’t catch me. Major Win

What I could have done better:

·       He made one really smart move, where one of his Khorgoraths charged my Warrior line, where my Skywardens were just under 3” behind the front of my Warriors’ bases. But he stopped his charge a half inch from the warriors (still a completed charge), so the Skywardens were just over 3” from his unit and couldn’t be activated. So remember to put your hidden unit 2.4” behind the front of your screen!

 

Final thoughts:

Spoiler

 

·       2-3 overall, which I was OK with, given how competitive the field was. Of the top 12 finishers, I think 10 were Skaven, DoK, Slaanesh, or FEC, while of the bottom 12 only 2 were. It really shows the gap in power level between the top armies and everything else. I had 5 really fun games against good opponents with good looking armies, though.

·       Since I play conservatively with the Endrinriggers for the first couple rounds, I don’t think they need 12. Nine is probably enough given that they aren’t flying into huge combats, so I might drop 3 Endrinriggers for 10 more Arkanauts.

·       Looks like the list will be 1930 points in GHB2019. Might just use the extra points on 10 more warriors. Great bodies for claiming objectives, protecting Arkanauts, and just tying things up while everything can shoot.

·       The list does suffer from having a high number of drops. Every opponent I played had a battalion, and out dropped me. I might also mess around with a version of the list with 1 Frigate.

·       All 3 footnotes I used are great, and useful in basically every game.

·       I would switch out the Gryph Feather charm for the mortal wound save artefact. They got targeted with spell and prayers way more than traditional attacks, but people didn’t generally see to target the Khemists.

·       One wishlist item: It seems too easy for summoned/teleporting/deepstriking units to make the 9” charge. Cogs, Sureheart, command point re-rolls, and all the army specific charge bonuses can make it pretty dependable. I’d like a rule that you can’t charge on the turn you arrive or maybe moving the distance back to 12”.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by WatcherintheWater

[Kramer]

Great stuff @WatcherintheWater, congrats on the wins. Great to see that the Skywardens + Warriors combo works for you. I agree that 12 endrinriggers might be a bit much. I also wonder how often your second Khemist had no real damage dealers to buff. Maybe increasing one Arkanaut squad to 20 might give some more steady results. 

But all in all great stuff. With the point reduction on the skywardens i'm starting to doubt the choice between the two. (Also don't forget warriors got a raise in points) 

What would be the MVP?

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kramer

[WatcherintheWater]

40 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I also wonder how often your second Khemist had no real damage dealers to buff.

Because most of the army is pretty close together for the first few turns, there are almost always decent  targets. The big unit's Skyhooks, Skywarden Pikes, and Endenrigger saws get buffed almost every turn, while the small unit's Skyhooks, big unit's Pistols, and even the Endrinrigger & Skywarden pistols are a decent targets depending on the situation. I hardly ever wasted the buff. With Urbaz you could try to get away with only one Khemist, but if an opponent is able to take it out early on, you would be in big trouble.

38 minutes ago, Kramer said:

What would be the MVP?

It's all pretty interconnected. The Big Arkanaut Unit does most of the damage, but so much of the list going into supporting it. I think the number 1 unit you need to score objectives and win scenarios has to be the Endrinriggers. 36" move is a life saver in a list that is otherwise pretty stationary.

[Cauthon]

23 hours ago, Kramer said:

@Cauthon @mmimzie rightly called me on my negative response. So i'll try to respond more in depth. Your first question you answer yourself. You take a weak points and ask if a minor points decrease will fix it. But you're all comparing it to being the absolute top tier. No Thunderers aren't ruined by a long shot. Their not as broken as they were. But I will still everyday take 10 thunderers over 5 judicators for 20 points more. So no probably not the best shots in the game, not even with the points reduction. Can they still win you games, absolutely. 

And the above I would apply to point 1 to 3B.

Then you suggested the Frigate at 140 points and suggested it would the only reason, in your opinion, for US to take the Frigate. In my opinion, you absolutely get value out of the frigate. It's the only way to deepstrike a squad. Getting further upfield with a 4" movement army? Worth at least 180pts if not more. Same with the Soulscryer in Deepkin, I get the points raise because deepstriking is a valuable skill. So don't judge it as a mobile gun platform or transport. It's a big base drop ship. 

Then you wish for a badass melee unit. Ain't gonna happen with a GHB update... but further on you burn Skywardens to the ground for their skymine ability ignoring their 2" pike range etc. And I agree if you compare Endrinriggers with Skywardens, buffed Endrinriggers  are the preferred choice... Et Voila, you have your badass melee unit. And you get great mobility in exchange for a better save. And you can transport them... for free   

Lastly you sum up that you believe point changes aren't the way to go. And I (mostly) agree with you. If you want this army to be top tier, it will need to be re-written. If you want this army to be a fun underdog with unique mechanics and models, with a huge learning curve that have the potential to do very well... you are already there. 

I would invite you to take a look at the KO games at CanCon on YouTube for some inspiration. Yes, you will need to play exceptionally well and yes, you will need some luck. But it's provenly doable. So why not you? 

But the other side of that coin. If you were one of my mates, and you rocked up to me with that summary and asked me if I would advise you to get into KO. I would wholeheartedly say no. It's a set-up for disappointment. You play a melee orientated army and you lose... your mind will go back to what you perceive as the handicap of still not having a badass melee unit. You play Shoot-cast and they drop in and one shot you and you're back to being bummed about are 'inferior' shooting. And it will happen, you might get good enough to win some of those games anyway and compete in the ones you lose. But if you don't like being the underdog, or playing for the win is core of having fun for you, I wouldn't advice this army if that's your view coming in.

If you do love the models, crave that uphill struggle or if your local scene isn't that hardcore anyway. Welcome on board! The sun is shining and there are a lot of positives in my mind.

 

@5kaven5lave

Hey Buddy thanks for the response. 

 

I I think you missed a couple of my points and positions though. 

I never asked for them to be top tier through points changes. I don’t even care if we are a top tier army. I would like to be CASUALLY competitive. 

 

My point was that you arnt going to get there with reasonable points changes. 

 

I don’t think the frigate needs to cost 140 and didn’t say it should. I was referencing someone else’s post (didn’t quote, sorry) where they said that’s how cheap some of our things would need to be to take our whole army from pretty dang bad to pretty good. (Not fantastic)

 

Sure it’s nice to be able to transport 4” move units, but what are you trying to move up the board? We are a mobile shooting army. The endrinriggers are fast enough, they can enjoy hiding in one but that can’t last long as they are our main damage dealers and if they are in the boat, they arnt doing much. Thunderers don’t have the firepower to clear units off objectives anymore and they also don’t want to be off the board for very long at all either.

 

I absolutley think it’s worth taking a frigate for clown car deepstrike, that’s it. 

 

Try to go second, drop it in, unload all your endrinriggers, see how much damage you can do, see if you get the double turn, shake hands  

 

Its not that frigates should cost 140 it’s that the mechanics of the army in general are so bad, you can’t make things cheap enough to make up for it, without making things stupid cheap. 

 

How many points do stormcast need to spend for their deepstrike mechanic? 

 

Again NOT to be top tier, talking casual competitive. 

 

I didnt say we didnt have an amazing melee unit, I said we didn’t have a melee unit you want to embark on a ship to go roll up to an objective with, a dwarf warrior equivalent or something. Heck stick a buckler on an arkanaut. 

 

Or at least cheap wounds... or some kind of second option!

 

Endrinriggers ARE an amazing unit. They are so amazing they absolutely outshine every other unit in our books hands down unless you want to spend 600+ points (previously) on a single battle line unit and babysitter.  

 

My only complaint is that 20 points per wound is quite a lot for a 5+ save. 

 

I think your accidentally proving my point for me about the thunderers. They went from most deadly, most versatile, elite, shooting unit in the game to, your going to compare them to judicators???This isn’t a battline unit for us, supposed to be the cream of our crop. Thunderers are supposed to be our vanguard raptors, compare our arkanaughts to the judicators..

 

My point about the skywardens was just that, no matter how cheap you make the unit, some of it’s mechanics just flat don’t work in a reasonable way. 

 

You don’t have to compare them to buffed riggers either, the chain cutlasses are just flat out better and the skymine doesn’t make up for anything. 2” range is cool I guess but how often do you fight in two ranks?

 

I have no no idea why you think i play a melee kharadron army. I only ever have one full unit of endrinriggers for melee, maybe a unit of arkos will have pikes if I don’t want to over proxy.

 

I definitely don’t think kharadron are supposed to be a melee army. I think we are supposed to be a ranged army. It just that after all of our ranged damage profiles went from flat damage 3 to damage d3, our best weapon is now the chain cutlas. Best target for the Khemist’s buff hands down to me but I’ve never been willing to have more than the minimum number of arkanaughts. 

 

I DO love the models, have since they were leaked at whatever con and was all in when they dropped. They were GOOD then, not GREAT, they were good, and fun. 

 

They had a COUPLE of powerful (risky) combos and then shortly after release were NERFED INTO THE GROUND. Not by points increases (although some of those) but because they dicked with our mechanics. Wether you like using thunderers today or not, the unit doesn’t even vaguely resemble what TACTICS you could get out of them. Them being maybe as good as judicators (#eyeroll) doesn’t make up for us losing one of only two money making units in our whole book.

 

Can’t I love the models and just want the army to be decent? 

 

Couldn’t the ships work just a little bit better without me “playing for the win as the core of my fun”

 

Its a game, ppl do TRY to win, that’s not all that’s important but I’ve never sat down to a game of anything and said boy I hope I get my teeth kicked in again!

 

I bet next time I’ll hit ALL my 4+ cannon shots instead of none of them! I bet I’ll roll average on my damage for the first time ever too!!

 

I don’t mean to be negative on the kharadron, Im very excited to give them another few spins and see how they fare. Im just not going to be surprised when the same issues still make them just not very fun to play.

 

im honestly happy you’re enjoying playing with KO. If you enjoy being the underdog, up hill battle and whatnot, will you enjoy the army if/when we get our mechanics fixed and are a mid tier army ( or better)?

 

Keep a weather eye!!

 

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Hey Buddy thanks for the response. 

 

I I think you missed a couple of my points and positions though. 

I never asked for them to be top tier through points changes. I don’t even care if we are a top tier army. I would like to be CASUALLY competitive. 

Always good to be sparring right  Yeah I agree getting us up there needs more than points changes. But I disagree that we're not CASUALLY competitive. But that's such an subjective term that it's of course who and what you play against. AoS Shorts has a competitive ranking in which we don't score high (i'm sure we we're ranked one up last month) but good enough to casually compete in my mind as this is based on the tournament scene.. But I understand that you would look at this and disagree. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

don’t think the frigate needs to cost 140 and didn’t say it should. I was referencing someone else’s post (didn’t quote, sorry) where they said that’s how cheap some of our things would need to be to take our whole army from pretty dang bad to pretty good. (Not fantastic)

Sure it’s nice to be able to transport 4” move units, but what are you trying to move up the board? We are a mobile shooting army. The endrinriggers are fast enough, they can enjoy hiding in one but that can’t last long as they are our main damage dealers and if they are in the boat, they arnt doing much. Thunderers don’t have the firepower to clear units off objectives anymore and they also don’t want to be off the board for very long at all either.

I absolutley think it’s worth taking a frigate for clown car deepstrike, that’s it. 

Ah didn't realise you were responding to someone. But are we a mobile shooting army though? Per your own assessment none of the mobile units has the firepower to put a dent in a piece of butter as we say in Dutch  

But remember it was a reply to: "

2. Ships just arnt that useful. Shooting is very lackluster, super swingy and not even good on the average.

 

2B. You can transport units but the only unit we have worth using is the endrinrigger and if you’re embarked, you arnt getting any use out of the endrinriggers offense.  "

I was merely trying to offer some other options for you in which I do find value in the Frigate.

You only see the value in the old clown car build in which you: 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Try to go second, drop it in, unload all your endrinriggers, see how much damage you can do, see if you get the double turn, shake hands  

 

I see way more value in the strategy Khron used in the CanCon final in which you play the objective and dropping in a ship with Ziflin is essential. It changed my gameplay and as a result win more and more importantly compete more. You won't outdamage most of your opponents and for me getting on a different track changed the game. Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XyZKXp-kU&t=4293s

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I didnt say we didnt have an amazing melee unit, I said we didn’t have a melee unit you want to embark on a ship to go roll up to an objective with, a dwarf warrior equivalent or something. Heck stick a buckler on an arkanaut. 

 

Or at least cheap wounds... or some kind of second option!

 

Endrinriggers ARE an amazing unit. They are so amazing they absolutely outshine every other unit in our books hands down unless you want to spend 600+ points (previously) on a single battle line unit and babysitter.  

 

Regarding the above you said: 

On 6/16/2019 at 9:48 PM, Kramer said:

We still don’t have a badass melee unit to transport  (pls don’t say arkonaughts) with the boat in the first place. 

 

So if I misinterpreted that... i;m sorry. But please let me know which it is. Because to me they oppose each other. Don't we have a badass melee unit, or do we have an amazing unit we can transport that absolutely outshines every other unit. Or do you mean you want something resilient? Because I agree we don't have it. But I also feel it wouldn't fit the playstyle nor should we have it. It's a bit like playing Dwarfs and lamenting a lack of speed. (see why i'm happy with my flying dawi as an old Dwarf player  )

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I think your accidentally proving my point for me about the thunderers. They went from most deadly, most versatile, elite, shooting unit in the game to, your going to compare them to judicators???This isn’t a battline unit for us, supposed to be the cream of our crop. Thunderers are supposed to be our vanguard raptors, compare our arkanaughts to the judicators..

 

What? No I don't agree with that comparison whatsoever. Comparing long range snipers to a front line unit? The value in Thunderers is much bigger than their damage output. I agree on the battleline thing, a Battleline if would be great. But again you have to be willing to play the objectives not just try to outdamage your opponent. 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I have no no idea why you think i play a melee kharadron army. I only ever have one full unit of endrinriggers for melee, maybe a unit of arkos will have pikes if I don’t want to over proxy.

 

I have no idea why you think I do? Please quote me because I never said you did. Re-reading my post I still can find it. 

 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I definitely don’t think kharadron are supposed to be a melee army. I think we are supposed to be a ranged army. It just that after all of our ranged damage profiles went from flat damage 3 to damage d3, our best weapon is now the chain cutlas. Best target for the Khemist’s buff hands down to me but I’ve never been willing to have more than the minimum number of arkanaughts. 

 

Same. But I thnk the Kehmist buff is equally valuable on the Arkanauts skypikes which makes a bigger unit a very good hero and monster hunter. And regarding the points... yeah its a synergy build which usually cost a lot of points. It's personal of course but I don't mind that. Just like I don't mind have to have 50/60 basic troops in an army. 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

You don’t have to compare them to buffed riggers either, the chain cutlasses are just flat out better and the skymine doesn’t make up for anything. 2” range is cool I guess but how often do you fight in two ranks?

 

I personally think it's a good thing to discuss and try out. Because I do often find myself missing out on attacks on units bigger than 6. And as I use them in a second wave it's usually to cap an objective. So i'm going to try it at least and i'll let you know. Especially with the price drop. On a unit of 6 thats 60points saved. Enough to buy a command point to re-roll ones. (new Command ability). 

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

They had a COUPLE of powerful (risky) combos and then shortly after release were NERFED INTO THE GROUND. Not by points increases (although some of those) but because they dicked with our mechanics. Wether you like using thunderers today or not, the unit doesn’t even vaguely resemble what TACTICS you could get out of them. Them being maybe as good as judicators (#eyeroll) doesn’t make up for us losing one of only two money making units in our whole book.

 Can’t I love the models and just want the army to be decent? 

Couldn’t the ships work just a little bit better without me “playing for the win as the core of my fun”

Its a game, ppl do TRY to win, that’s not all that’s important but I’ve never sat down to a game of anything and said boy I hope I get my teeth kicked in again!

I bet next time I’ll hit ALL my 4+ cannon shots instead of none of them! I bet I’ll roll average on my damage for the first time ever too!!

I don’t mean to be negative on the kharadron, Im very excited to give them another few spins and see how they fare. Im just not going to be surprised when the same issues still make them just not very fun to play.

The first part of the post is fine and we can have a conversation about what could and won't work. Because that was what you were asking for in your first post. "Hope you guys can make it work!! Would love to hear how wrong I am!! Sorry for anything misremembered. "

But the above is not helpful. I try to offer somethings that do work (again YouTube link, final CanCon, so Casually competitive is doable, it's proof it can be done) but you end up going back to the broken combo's on release that where changed. It wasn't a fun play experience against and with. It was spamming a mistake in the rules by GW. To be perfectly honest, the last part of your post is just whining.

So if you do play some games yes, discuss and let's figure it out. But if your only typing to 'discuss' #eyeroll* about how it's all doom & gloom, it doesn't help anyone and i'm not wasting anymore time on it. 

* yeah I get real childish and stoop to the same level  

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

m honestly happy you’re enjoying playing with KO. If you enjoy being the underdog, up hill battle and whatnot, will you enjoy the army if/when we get our mechanics fixed and are a mid tier army ( or better)?

Ehm good question, don't have a yes or no answer. I do know that when DoK dropped I had enough old Dark Elves to play them. And it was awhile before people could compete. So I would give it some time. But if it ends up that same, where my opponents beforehand already feel like they lost I will probably drop KO like I dropped DoK. Although it didn't help that I started playing more and more DoK. Which is fun occasionally but I have enough factions lying around I'd rather play something else. So we'll see I guess. 

[stato]

Guys, if you are going to write essays just email each other 😁

Or at least hide some of the responses, its going to be one post a page if you make them any longer! 🤣

[Reuben Parker]

As I a glass half full kind of person something else I’ve heard that would favour boat KO would be that new missions are going for increased objective count. 

I already prefer playing a skirmish style KO so should be good for that. 

Need to see final points as the leaks didn’t include all units and battalions but it’s looking like I should have 200 odd points spare. So either more sky wardens and thunderers or could go for a khemist upgrade and a 20 man sky hook unit for a bit of a fire base. 

Still not sure what skyport I like best either with the MSU style. 

Admiral

navigator

3x10 Ark

3x3 sky warden full gun

2x5 thunderer rifles 

3 gun hauler 

frigate 

escort wing 

200+ points extra depending on final points. I might be able to squeeze in a 3rd thunderer unit admiral to khemist and a unit of 20 arkanaut which I think would be a fun and flexible list. 

Skyport wise I tried Mhornar but with MSU the re roll bubble isn’t great I might just go for Zilfin for teleport frigate, always 1s vs fliers and late game plus 6 runs for the ships to grab objectives. 

[WatcherintheWater]

Cool list @Reuben Parker. I agree that Zilfin could be really good with that many ships.

Where does the damage output come from? Sometimes it feels tough to find enough damage  without Endrinriggers or big Arkanaut units buffed by a Khemist.

[5kaven5lave]

Would really like to see the 2 Frigate Batallion working well to get the drops down. Think it’s still be a bit rubbish, but more boats all the way. 

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

As I a glass half full kind of person something else I’ve heard that would favour boat KO would be that new missions are going for increased objective count. 

I already prefer playing a skirmish style KO so should be good for that. 

Need to see final points as the leaks didn’t include all units and battalions but it’s looking like I should have 200 odd points spare. So either more sky wardens and thunderers or could go for a khemist upgrade and a 20 man sky hook unit for a bit of a fire base. 

Still not sure what skyport I like best either with the MSU style. 

Admiral

navigator

3x10 Ark

3x3 sky warden full gun

2x5 thunderer rifles 

3 gun hauler 

frigate 

escort wing 

200+ points extra depending on final points. I might be able to squeeze in a 3rd thunderer unit admiral to khemist and a unit of 20 arkanaut which I think would be a fun and flexible list. 

Skyport wise I tried Mhornar but with MSU the re roll bubble isn’t great I might just go for Zilfin for teleport frigate, always 1s vs fliers and late game plus 6 runs for the ships to grab objectives. 

Yeah the escort wing has my eye as well. Still have the suspicion that it won't be a game changer but I would really like to try it on day. (Although it would require me proxying the last two so not this year I guess #noproxy2019. )

Based on the review this would be: 1630 + Escort wing (didn't catch if those prices changed)

 

[stratigo]

I feel the escort wing is getting closer and closer to being good. Almost there

[nine7six]

I personally dont' think any of the battlions are worth it, Rob made a comment on the Honest Wargamer that made me think, if you can't participate in the activation wars then why bother? sooo with that in mind i'm not running endrinriggers, it would be ****** to charge them but you always attack last.

Instead i'm going full shooting and choosing Barak Nar over Zilfin, this way my army can focus on 3 things, shooting, unbinding and movement and with new point reductions you can fit 15 thunderers, 30 arknaughts and 12 skywardens (with drill canons) and 2 khemists giving the army a triple threat. Make that opponent decide which of the shooting units is more a threat. Having all the heroes being able to unbind and with a +1 is nice...