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AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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5 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Haha seems like it yeah! But great numbers on the ferry man, that’s very interesting. 

How did you do on objectives? Although I rather suspect it’s a clean up job after such assassination strike against Khorne. 

Yeah, we didn't even bother counting them for that one.  I would assume poorly though 😂.  

Definitely not an optimized build haha.  Mostly I was interested in the ferrying which does work pretty well.  I think long run the Soul Scream Bridge will probably end up being a better option. 

Edited by Vextol
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I just got brokk... So many small parts... but what a great fitting kit. 

Recently build a couple of what should be easy to build  but this ended up being a lot less mold line removel, gap filling and what have you. Just worried about the connection of the tubes but will cross that bridge after painting.

All in all a great recommend from me if you collect this army for the hobby

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Hey guys, I'm trying to build a list for a tournament in the end of the month! I'm new to KO - being playing FEC for a long time and wanted to change complete my play style.

It will be an 1500pts (VANGUARD +500pts / GHB18 points) - and I tested the following list against Khorne with those big Daemons, and won. Years of playing shooting army in 40K helped me a lot positioning my pieces correct.
Sky-Port
Barak-Mhornar
Extra Footnote
There's no Trading with Some People
Leaders

Aether-Khemist (160)
Aether-Khemist (160)
- Artefatc: Aethershock Earbuster

Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General: Opportunistic Privateers

Battleline
40 x Arkanaut Company (480)
- 12 x Skyhook 

10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 03 x Skyhook
Units
6 x Endrinriggers (240)
- 06 x Rivet Guns + Saw

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (240)
Total: 1480 / 1500

Two points I'm still in doubt:
1 - Should I change the Artefact? I know it is awesome against Horde, but the small range (10") - allied with the fact that not always I should face horde. In my game against Khorne couldn't use it a single time.
2 - Frigate was awesome to give me the 1st turn choice and act like a Screen/Distraction, but after this it did nothing and just died. Should I change it for Brokk Grungsson? Will he add more value for my list?

Thank in four any tips and help you guys can provide for me!

 

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25 minutes ago, Masake said:

Hey guys, I'm trying to build a list for a tournament in the end of the month! I'm new to KO - being playing FEC for a long time and wanted to change complete my play style.

It will be an 1500pts (VANGUARD +500pts / GHB18 points) - and I tested the following list against Khorne with those big Daemons, and won. Years of playing shooting army in 40K helped me a lot positioning my pieces correct.
Sky-Port
Barak-Mhornar
Extra Footnote
There's no Trading with Some People
Leaders

Aether-Khemist (160)
Aether-Khemist (160)
- Artefatc: Aethershock Earbuster

Aetheric Navigator (80)
- General: Opportunistic Privateers

Battleline
40 x Arkanaut Company (480)
- 12 x Skyhook 

10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 03 x Skyhook
Units
6 x Endrinriggers (240)
- 06 x Rivet Guns + Saw

War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (240)
Total: 1480 / 1500

Two points I'm still in doubt:
1 - Should I change the Artefact? I know it is awesome against Horde, but the small range (10") - allied with the fact that not always I should face horde. In my game against Khorne couldn't use it a single time.
2 - Frigate was awesome to give me the 1st turn choice and act like a Screen/Distraction, but after this it did nothing and just died. Should I change it for Brokk Grungsson? Will he add more value for my list?

Thank in four any tips and help you guys can provide for me!

 

By no means a great player but my initial thoughts are... great list, looks like fun to play, with some different tools in the list. 

1. A dispel artefact would probably the safer choice. (Can’t remember the name right know). The ear buster is in my mind more fitting in a ziflin list where you drop a khemist with a squad further upfield. 

2, in the same manner, the value of the frigate is definitely better in a ziflin list. So without playing him yet, got my copy this weekend by chance, I could see it bringing more worth to you. I’m definitely going to try him with six riggers as a ‘cavalry’ unit. Because the run & charge could be so valuable when you need to start far back within khemist range. He also might just out shoot the frigate over a couple of turns as well 😂.

So you would be losing a bigger base to block with and a drop or two. But you gain some extra hitting power, flexibility in movement (two fast units), a useful command ability, extra character could be useful dependent on the scenario. 

So in my mind it would be at least a good call to try out. Buuuuuutttt all that tactical nonsense besides.... without the frigate you have no ship in your flying dwarf lists. which s*cks and is kind of demoralising ;) 

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42 minutes ago, Kramer said:

So in my mind it would be at least a good call to try out. Buuuuuutttt all that tactical nonsense besides.... without the frigate you have no ship in your flying dwarf lists. which s*cks and is kind of demoralising

Well... first, thank you for your advice!

Second, at least will be a shock for all players! ahahahahaha

It is been a while since no one plays KO in our local club... so it is already a surprise for most of them! I might say that more than half of the players of the tournament never faced KO before, so this will be an advantage for me!

The ship brings the distraction effect (everyone will aim for it even that we know it makes almost nothing... sadly). But I'm seeing more overall valuable bringing Brokk as Mhornar! 

I guess I should try it!

About Artefacts, I have the Navigator as my dispelling source! I could give him the artefact for 3 Dice dispell or give one Khemist it for a second dispell.

Besides this, I still can choose one aretfact from Realm of Origin if I think it is more worth! Maybe given my Navigator a MW ward save (That can wreck him) in form of Ignax Scale artefact...

Lot of options here...

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23 minutes ago, Masake said:

Well... first, thank you for your advice!

Second, at least will be a shock for all players! ahahahahaha

It is been a while since no one plays KO in our local club... so it is already a surprise for most of them! I might say that more than half of the players of the tournament never faced KO before, so this will be an advantage for me!

The ship brings the distraction effect (everyone will aim for it even that we know it makes almost nothing... sadly). But I'm seeing more overall valuable bringing Brokk as Mhornar! 

I guess I should try it!

About Artefacts, I have the Navigator as my dispelling source! I could give him the artefact for 3 Dice dispell or give one Khemist it for a second dispell.

Besides this, I still can choose one aretfact from Realm of Origin if I think it is more worth! Maybe given my Navigator a MW ward save (That can wreck him) in form of Ignax Scale artefact...

Lot of options here...

Yeah That’s a tricky choice always. I do like the realm artefacts but so many options to consider 😂 

I think it depends mostly on your regular opponents. An extra dispel is usually a good bet in my experience. 

If I get Brokk finished I will go for this: 

4316B349-0306-4150-BC17-47E7F2225823.jpeg.5eb96f7cb397b79988b7e5ec13462f76.jpeg

The basic idea is to get in their face with the thunderers. So they are forced to deal with it or i get points. First turn keeping the riggers and brokk back to play linebacker for the thunderers and take out whatever my opponent uses to tackle the thunderers.  Arkanauts screen and grab objectives if possible. 

Curious to see how it will work out in practice. I’m guess your list will function more steady. Mine is a bit hit and miss on match up and scenarios 

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7 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah That’s a tricky choice always. I do like the realm artefacts but so many options to consider

That is why list building give me so many headaches??? ahahahahahah

Going to study my opponents, just 30 dudes - so won't give me trouble studying it!

8 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I’m guess your list will function more steady.

Man... 12 Skyhook upgraded by Khemist is nasty! Turn one - killed One Big Khorne Daemon and a few bodies... than turn 2 I one soothed Archaon (He missed the prayer to give him +1 to save)! My opponent face was priceless.... he was like "Dude, I didn't know KO could do this - how is it possible"

Did some math and this group, with the Mhornar re-rolls, on average deal 19 Damage to an 3+ Save Monster (+1 to hit). With a lot of nasty monster - Like FEC TG with attack first and twice upgrade -  I can one shot it off the board without worrying with those combos.

I need to worry about getting locked on some sort of TARPIT (That can make me loose the ability to target prioritizing correct) and/or being alpha striked without having 1CP to pass moral.

Lets see - going to text that new list to feel it better.

 

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3 hours ago, Masake said:

Going to study my opponents, just 30 dudes - so won't give me trouble studying it!

Man... 12 Skyhook upgraded by Khemist is nasty! Turn one - killed One Big Khorne Daemon and a few bodies... than turn 2 I one soothed Archaon (He missed the prayer to give him +1 to save)! My opponent face was priceless.... he was like "Dude, I didn't know KO could do this - how is it possible"

Did some math and this group, with the Mhornar re-rolls, on average deal 19 Damage to an 3+ Save Monster (+1 to hit). With a lot of nasty monster - Like FEC TG with attack first and twice upgrade -  I can one shot it off the board without worrying with those combos.

I need to worry about getting locked on some sort of TARPIT (That can make me loose the ability to target prioritizing correct) and/or being alpha striked without having 1CP to pass moral.

Lets see - going to text that new list to feel it better.

 

Haha that's some good back to back shooting. It will be in my 2K list but i'm holding off on getting and building the last arkanauts because i'm personally convinced they will block spamming the special weapons in some way. 

So until I finish everything else in my goal list I will postpone them and play 1,5k. (which is our preferred size anyway, so that's a happy coincidence) 

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21 hours ago, Kramer said:

Yeah That’s a tricky choice always. I do like the realm artefacts but so many options to consider 😂 

I think it depends mostly on your regular opponents. An extra dispel is usually a good bet in my experience. 

If I get Brokk finished I will go for this: 

4316B349-0306-4150-BC17-47E7F2225823.jpeg.5eb96f7cb397b79988b7e5ec13462f76.jpeg

The basic idea is to get in their face with the thunderers. So they are forced to deal with it or i get points. First turn keeping the riggers and brokk back to play linebacker for the thunderers and take out whatever my opponent uses to tackle the thunderers.  Arkanauts screen and grab objectives if possible. 

Curious to see how it will work out in practice. I’m guess your list will function more steady. Mine is a bit hit and miss on match up and scenarios 

Your list looks interesting... to be honest my feeling is that KO must always take one full unit of Arkanaut to be at least a little effective! Maybe I'm wrong due to lack of experience, but I feel that most of its units (outside the Khemist + huge arkanaut unit) is lackluster.

This Saturday going to test a little more to get a better feel of KO.

Edited by Masake
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35 minutes ago, Masake said:

Your list looks interesting... to be honest my feeling is that KO must always take one full unit of Arkanaut to be at least a little effective! Maybe I'm wrong due to lack of experience, but I fell that most of its units (outside the Khemist + huge arkanaut unit) is lackluster.

This Saturday going to test a little more to get a better feel of KO.

yes and no in my view. I think you need them to compete yes, because it's the best damage dealer we have. But as I expect it to change I want to figure out the other options we have before I invest in 20 more arkanauts and converting them. Also not many Netlists by my usual opponents. So the real cheese with re-rolling 2+ saves is very rare. At a basic level the way I see it is: 

1. We have skyhooks, better in bigger groups due to Khemist. Very clear cut but big weaknesses are when it gets into combat. And in a objective driven game needing 640 to hang back to be effective can be limiting. So you need more than that. Otherwise get three blocks of 40 + 3x khemist and you got your list. 

2. The mobility of endrinriggers/skywardens as response units. They are fast enough to hang back turn 1 and buffed can make a real impact. I want to try out 2x6 as well one day. One on each flank to further force your opponent wide. Otherwise you have at least one unit to threaten his backfield by flying over them. 

3. Deepstriking thunderers. The way Khron used them in CanCon felt really inspired to me. Getting them close, charging, fleeing for extra movement. Not to mention the damage output. It's a real brick in the face and your opponent needs to deal with it. 

All in all at 2K I think you can barely do all but you could also drop 1 option to free up points for allies. At 1k to 1,5K (which we play most often) you can't really get all three options in. With this in mind I decided quite some time ago, after proxying a bit, that this year no proxy's and everything painted means I rather invest in point 2 and 3 and figure those out. Point 1 is clear to see, but again I don't see it last. So i'm waiting at least on the GH19 before I buy another Arkanaut.

Of course take all the above with the knowledge it's written from my point of view. Not a lot of 'netlists' in my area & I don't frequent big tournaments (although I might pick that back up this year.. we'll see ;) ) .

EDIT: also let's not forget this list is an experiment for me as well 

Edited by Kramer
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9 minutes ago, Kramer said:

1. We have skyhooks, better in bigger groups due to Khemist. Very clear cut but big weaknesses are when it gets into combat. And in a objective driven game needing 640 to hang back to be effective can be limiting. So you need more than that. Otherwise get three blocks of 40 + 3x khemist and you got your list. 

- Agreed with its weakness and the fact that is pretty slow units. Usually I try to paired them with some sort of screen and add some high move units to be the "objective grabber". I'd never go FULL Arkanauts + Khemist list! (But must be a fun one, even losing ahahaha).

12 minutes ago, Kramer said:

2. The mobility of endrinriggers/skywardens as response units. They are fast enough to hang back turn 1 and buffed can make a real impact. I want to try out 2x6 as well one day. One on each flank to further force your opponent wide. Otherwise you have at least one unit to threaten his backfield by flying over them. 

- I try to attack with them early on. That way I can cause some sort of distraction with my opponent, changing the focus from my Arkanauts to the Rigger attacking their back line.

13 minutes ago, Kramer said:

3. Deepstriking thunderers. The way Khron used them in CanCon felt really inspired to me. Getting them close, charging, fleeing for extra movement. Not to mention the damage output. It's a real brick in the face and your opponent needs to deal with it. 

I saw it... it was amazing! But reading some sort of report from him, it was clear to me that he used this tactic knowing it will only be effective in some sort of battleplans (The ones you won stealing the objective from your opponent). And it went well due to lack of acknowledging  about this tactics... my believe is that, from this point in beyond, ppl will tend to pay more attention - usually this happen when someone get all the spot lights for some tactics used at a huge tournament.

I thing in his list that I thought was well thought - was using EVOCATORS to acts as Screen / Counter Attack units paired with some sort of Dispell, much needed by KO!

If I had them I'd easily use on my lists... maybe with GHB19, the small ship drops on points and we can add it as some sort of Objective Grabber! Who knows....

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13 minutes ago, Masake said:

Agreed with its weakness and the fact that is pretty slow units. Usually I try to paired them with some sort of screen and add some high move units to be the "objective grabber". I'd never go FULL Arkanauts + Khemist list! (But must be a fun one, even losing ahahaha).

Just imagine getting that list wysiwyg 😂 horrible

13 minutes ago, Masake said:

I try to attack with them early on. That way I can cause some sort of distraction with my opponent, changing the focus from my Arkanauts to the Rigger attacking their back line.

I kind of got back from that. As I usually end up with first turn. The games I went full attack mode my opponent had so many supporting units they always died in the counter punch and not really held the opponent up either. In later games where I held them back a turn and waited for my opponent to spread out a bit for objectives I occasionally got a second charge in with them (always to far up to get a buff but still felt more useful.) So now in combination with my thunderers I get an alpha strike in there and keep them as linebackers. But I’ll report back when I get some games in because that’s the experiment for me as well 

 

13 minutes ago, Masake said:

report from him, it was clear to me that he used this tactic knowing it will only be effective in some sort of battleplans (The ones you won stealing the objective from your opponent). And it went well due to lack of acknowledging  about this tactics... my believe is that, from this point in beyond, ppl will tend to pay more attention - usually this happen when someone get all the spot lights for some tactics used at a huge tournament.

I thing in his list that I thought was well thought - was using EVOCATORS to acts as Screen / Counter Attack units paired with some sort of Dispell, much needed by KO!

If I had them I'd easily use on my lists... maybe with GHB19, the small ship drops on points and we can add it as some sort of Objective Grabber

Absolutely all true. But I’m also counting on the difference between seeing and experiencing it. Just like I know the tactic, I need to practice it to get it down. I suspect not many players will face KO (frequently) so I’m not that worried about it. 

And I do have some evocaters. And they are good in any list. Their just great units with a bunch of uses. It’s crazy. 

Edited by Kramer
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3 hours ago, Beliman said:

New mercenary companies on warhammer tv.

Anyone know how effective could be having some Maneaters in our lists?
I really love their models, but I  need more excuses to buy them (rule of cool is nice, but I already have an army around that rule).

Positives: They are amazing! Very cool looking and they have a great punch. Choose run and charge as ability (they can choose from several, see their warscroll) then you have 6" +  d6 run + re-rolling charge. In my Ogor lists I regurly take 3 or 6 as a kind of line backer unit that responds to the situation, it's relative fast, hits hard, has a bit of shooting to not be totally out of the game that first round. 4 attacks on 3+ 3+ -1 2 damage also means they have some punch to actually hurt what they are responding to. 

Negatives: 5+ save hurts them a bit. Second points, 200 for three is steep and means that after the Firebelly you don't have enough points left for another 3. Which brings me to the Firebelly I tried him for 10+ games and... it's just rubbish. Amazing model so well worth it for the hobby. Basically the problem is that it requires you to get close to a achieve anything but even then you only have a 5+ save and don't deal a lot of damage. KO specific it's a caster and dispeller that we lack, so there might be something there. 

All in all, as I have them all and field them not enough, I will give them some goes. But on first look I wouldn't advice anybody to invest in them for competitive purposes. Buuut it does give you a lot for hobby purposes, and I mean a lot, & it's a great deal for players that don't aim for GT's because at a club level I expect them to add a bunch of value. 

 

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Hi,

I am pretty sure KO are going to be the dwarf army I choose. I know points and such are likely to change but I have been thinking about what I want my 1200 - 1500 point lists to look like. Am I right in thinking that if I take an Ironclad I can count 20 Arkanauts and X Endrinriggers as one drop at the same time? Are there any downsides? I have no experience of playing embarkation and such in AOS. 

Edited by ByronicHero
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46 minutes ago, ByronicHero said:

Hi,

I am pretty sure KO are going to be the dwarf army I choose. I know points and such are likely to change but I have been thinking about what I want my 1200 - 1500 point lists to look like. Am I right in thinking that if I take an Ironclad I can count 20 Arkanauts and X Endrinriggers as one drop at the same time? Are there any downsides? I have no experience of playing embarkation and such in AOS. 

Yes, yes you can! Biggest downside is that disembarking happens before movement. In combination with Zilfin it does give you the chance to drop in your Ironclad further up field, disembark, and then shoot/charge. Advantages are of course safety, setting up in less drops and as a result choosing the turn, and a very very cool model ;)

What's your 1200/1500pts list look like?

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7 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yes, yes you can! Biggest downside is that disembarking happens before movement. In combination with Zilfin it does give you the chance to drop in your Ironclad further up field, disembark, and then shoot/charge. Advantages are of course safety, setting up in less drops and as a result choosing the turn, and a very very cool model ;)

What's your 1200/1500pts list look like?

Okay sweet, just wanted to make sure it worked that way as controlling the turn is appealing to me.

Well, there is nothing too set in stone at the moment as I still have two SC boxes to paint for another army first. However, I know that I want the list to have lots of shooting because my current armies have essentially none, I want to use the Ironclad because it is cool and also want to use Brokk because he is hilarious.  In a 1200 point list that is problematic as I would ideally like a blob of Arkanauts and a Khemist.

Ironclad (420)

Brokk (260)

3 x Endrinriggers (120)

20 x Arkanaut [6 hooks] (240)

10 x Arkanaut (120)

Khemist (160)

The above currently comes to 1320, but looking at the things that exist in the game for purchase at 420 points I can't imagine the Ironclad won't be cheaper and hopefully maybe some other bits will somehow drop this to 1200 😛 That is a bit too hopeful of course, so more likely I'd drop the Khemist as I'm not really getting the best out of it here and hope to see 60 points in reductions to put in some Thunderers, or even at current points just take the extra command point for charges and such. Or, to have someone to put traits and such on, drop to the min units for Arks and keep Khemist or play another hero (not really looked at them much). Alternatively:

Khemist (160)

Arkanaut x 40 (480)

Arkanaut x 10 (120)

Ironclad (460)

I'm 'sure' GHB19 will include a max unit price reduction or an Ironclad buff to the tune of 20 points. The problem with this is the lack of objective options. I really like the idea of having Brokk and some Endrins to give me some assault capabilities. 

So, as you can see my thoughts are quite fragmented. I'm pretty set on Brokk and Ironclad though if I can fit them both in the army reasonably. Maybe Endrins will become 'battleline if' with Brokk in which case happy days 😛

I'd welcome any advice.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Yep.

Their points are going down almost across the board in the new GHB, including 40 point drops for the larger vessels, Khemist down 20, Skywardens back down 20, Thunderers down 10, as well as other similar tweaks. They should be very playable moving foward.

More significantly, I had previously said they were coming this Spring with Sylvaneth - I clearly got my wires crossed on which duardin were being refreshed this Spring (given the Fyreslayer tome). KO book is wrapping up, so expect it in 6-9 months I would guess.


Other significant news includes the three new command generic command abilities include reroll 1s to hit, reroll 1s to wound, and reroll 1s to save. Sounds like we'll all be capped at only 1 additional command point (purchasable for 50 points in matched play).  Dok took a hit, but it wasn't tragic (Hags at 90, etc.). Interestingly, alot more points adjustments by 10s instead of 20s (eels up 10, etc).

That's all I have right now.

That Sounds really awesome, hope that this is true 😊

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2 hours ago, Grudgebearer said:

That Sounds really awesome, hope that this is true 😊

I always try (heavily) to avoid these kinds of rumours/leaks. It's not the whole story but it presents it's like the whole truth. Thunderers down 10? I truly don't believe that. And further more... points changes are only relevant in the whole. Super cool Ironclad is going down 20 points... but if it's a change for every single thing... what's the point? It's not the game breaker for us. 

Some for the generic command abilities... If it's true it would invalidate so many abilities throughout the game that I can't believe that it will be as simple as that. 

But we'll see. Not to be a downer, but to me the changes are never so clear cut as they are presented in leaks and rumours.

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2 hours ago, Kramer said:

I always try (heavily) to avoid these kinds of rumours/leaks. It's not the whole story but it presents it's like the whole truth. Thunderers down 10? I truly don't believe that. And further more... points changes are only relevant in the whole. Super cool Ironclad is going down 20 points... but if it's a change for every single thing... what's the point? It's not the game breaker for us. 

Some for the generic command abilities... If it's true it would invalidate so many abilities throughout the game that I can't believe that it will be as simple as that. 

But we'll see. Not to be a downer, but to me the changes are never so clear cut as they are presented in leaks and rumours.

I dont belive we will see any changes than point ones in ghb for armies with books.

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51 minutes ago, Entombet said:

I dont belive we will see any changes than point ones in ghb for armies with books.

Well they did announce new command abilities so something besides points is happening. 

But my point was more that even if every for us drops 20 pts it doesn’t help anything if all other armies also drop 20 across the board. 

 Changes are only relevant with the full context and rumours and leaks don’t give that context. 

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From Warhammer Community:

Quote

Like aether-craft? Well, good news! The Grundstok Gunhauler,Arkanaut Frigate and Arkanaut Ironclad are all down in points in the latest General’s Handbook! You’ll have the points for even more firepower in your Skyfleet now, particularly with Skywardens and Grundstok Thunderers having also seen reductions.

Something expected imo. Really happy for Thunderers. Not sure about how good Skywardens are going to be, but maybe we are going to see more of them like the small harassing blob like before.

Not sure about the ships, but I can't wait to see a lot of them on the table soon. 

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

From Warhammer Community:

Something expected imo. Really happy for Thunderers. Not sure about how good Skywardens are going to be, but maybe we are going to see more of them like the small harassing blob like before.

Not sure about the ships, but I can't wait to see a lot of them on the table soon. 

Same here. Happy for the thunderers. But how the hell are they getting the drop? 100 for 5 doesn't seem to pricy to me. They're just not seen more because they are not conditional battleline. But happily take it, if only because I always end up with 40pts left 😂 Go extra CP!

And indeed points won't make a second boat more 'viable' but we'll see if there isn't anything else coming together/after the points changes. It does give that little bit extra motivation to get my Ironclad conversion going. 

Only horrible thing is... i'm kind of done with painting the burgondy and Contrast doesn't seem to have the fix I need for the next 40 arkanauts 😂

Edited by Kramer
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Just realised but as i'm painting up my old Slayer models* as Hearthguard bezerker allies...

 

Quote

However, to make sure your Pitched Battles are as balanced as possible, we’ll be releasing an early (and free) points update to the most recent battletomes – for reference, that’s SkavenBlades of KhorneFyreslayers, Gloomspite Gitz and Flesh-eater Courts. Keep an eye out for this – and the General’s Handbook 2019 FAQ – in early July.

This will mean a point increase for the Bezerkers i'm afraid. Just hope 10 + runesmiter fits into the ally slot. Anybody try them already?

 

*They are just a blast to paint, they just ooze character. 

Edited by Kramer
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