AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[FractalRain]

32 minutes ago, Luke.w said:

You might be right actually. He wording fo fly from the rules says that "verical distance is ignored whenaking a fly move". Therefore you can move with grapnels over enemy units and be more than 3" away from them as you can techncally fly infinitely high. 

This does still mean that you can't shoot them out of combat though so it is still a nerf just not as bad.

I had never thought you could shoot them out of combat, so that might explain why they tweaked it to clarifying you can't use it when within 3" of an enemy unit. 

[Jakob der Spatz]

I don't think it wil work this way, even if they can fly, they have to move a direct line to the grapnelled terain or model. so as long as you don't have an terrain on top of a mountain (wich is not the mountain itself, because if youaim for the mountain, you have to use the closest point from it), it won't work.

Also, if the flying negates the 3", why would the mention it? Tell me if i'm wrong, but aren't even non-flying models allowed to move closer than 3" to an enemy model, as long as they don't end their move within 3"?

[Jakob der Spatz]

Another question: can they shoot their grapnel launcher after retreading in movement phase? Because it's not traditional shooting, it is no missle weapon, it's more like an ability.

(sry for double-post, don't know how to delete an post)

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jakob der Spatz

[stato]

22 minutes ago, Jakob der Spatz said:

I don't think it wil work this way, even if they can fly, they have to move a direct line to the grapnelled terain or model. so as long as you don't have an terrain on top of a mountain (wich is not the mountain itself, because if youaim for the mountain, you have to use the closest point from it), it won't work.

Also, if the flying negates the 3", why would the mention it? Tell me if i'm wrong, but aren't even non-flying models allowed to move closer than 3" to an enemy model, as long as they don't end their move within 3"?

Yeah, im confilcted. The reason i brought it up was because, as you say, it clearly states how to move with the grapnel, but the Fly rule does say fly ignores units in the way.  I think they want to treat it as a direct drag (which i guess a grapnel would be, a tight wire pulling in a straight line!) but i think it will be a constant debate... like a lot of changes poorly worded or thought out in AOS2.

Can definitely grapnel after a retreat though, ability would have to specifically state if it couldnt as its an ability not a shooting action.  Of course we can fly when retreating so 12+D6" retreat should get the unit somewhere it can use a grapnel if that was your plan.

Edited June 29, 2018 by stato

[FractalRain]

I don't know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Why would they take away the ability to fly over a unit while grapneling?  It would eliminate the most useful aspect of the ability, particularly against armies with many units - they could effectively deny you most of the table.  We would have to try and fly over or around the offending unit and then grapnel somewhere? 

[nine7six]

9 minutes ago, FractalRain said:

I don't know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Why would they take away the ability to fly over a unit while grapneling?  It would eliminate the most useful aspect of the ability, particularly against armies with many units - they could effectively deny you most of the table.  We would have to try and fly over or around the offending unit and then grapnel somewhere? 

I agree, doesn't make sense to me either. that's why I'm wondering if it's only worth having 1 in a unit or none and just use drill canons.

[Jakob der Spatz]

I think they changed it so you don't have a 36" move behind enemy lines to charge heroes or take objektives easy. The rule makes sense due the unit doesen't fly high above the enemy like in movement, they harpoon a straight lint THROU the enemy (as long as they don't harpoon a mountain as i mentioned earlyer).

On the other hand, if we use the grapnel on our own ships, we should be able to fly above the enemy units...

But most important of all, using the grapnel is not a movement, thats why it is discribed seperatly, i think no normal movement rules are used (i.e. you can not run).

[Dr. Lao]

To me this sounds more like "re-position" rather than "move". Therefore Flying wouldn't apply here. 

This happens outside of the movement phase, and since flying is only listed during the movement phase the rules do not apply in the shooting phase, or any other phase, except in instances like "There is always a breeze..." where it does specifically state that the move is treated as if it were happening in the movement phase and would therefore take flying into account.

As far as picking a point on a ship or scenery piece...That is difficult because measuring distance is not base to base. So the closest point base to base will always be at the same plane as the tabletop. For pieces without a base you measure base to closest point, but to go in a straight line AND get 3" above a model means you'd have to have so very vertical scenery that has a much broader top than base. 

BUT also consider that you have to move in "a straight line" (singular line). Moving to a point high up on the battlefield and then down to the table to put your model takes two straight lines.

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Dr. Lao
Corrected a "not" that shouldn't have been there

[Dr. Lao]

Double post - Please delete. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Dr. Lao

[stratigo]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Lao said:

To me this sounds more like "re-position" rather than "move". Therefore Flying wouldn't apply here. 

This happens outside of the movement phase, and since flying is only listed during the movement phase the rules do not apply in the shooting phase, or any other phase, except in instances like "There is always a breeze..." where it does specifically state that the move is treated as if it were happening in the movement phase and would therefore take flying into account.

As far as picking a point on a ship or scenery piece...That is difficult because measuring distance is not base to base. So the closest point base to base will always be at the same plane as the tabletop. For pieces without a base you measure base to closest point, but to go in a straight line AND get 3" above a model means you'd have to have so very vertical scenery that has a much broader top than base. 

BUT also consider that you have to move in "a straight line" (singular line). Moving to a point high up on the battlefield and then down to the table to put your model takes two straight lines.

 

The straight line part gets confusing as it is a straight line to a point, but unless your models are in a conga, that will make them shift their position at an angle relative to each other as they converge towards said point

[Dr. Lao]

19 minutes ago, stratigo said:

The straight line part gets confusing as it is a straight line to a point, but unless your models are in a conga, that will make them shift their position at an angle relative to each other as they converge towards said point

Each model would form it's own straight line: 
"...each model in this unit is moved directly and in a straight line towards the target..."
So they wouldn't all follow the same line. A unit of 3 would have three straight lines converging towards the same point. 

[Qaz]

Does this mean thundered are back? Mortar is 36" on the app.

[Gecktron]

6 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Does this mean thundered are back? Mortar is 36" on the app.

Looks like they uploaded the wrong warscroll. This one looks like the old one but the Errata makes it clear that this version is no longer in use.

[Barkanaut]

Yeah but this is more current than the errata. We need to ask. 

[stratigo]

3 hours ago, Barkanaut said:

Yeah but this is more current than the errata. We need to ask. 

They indicated that the one you use is the one available from their webstore. Which is identical to the 2017 GHB.

 

There's no way around how badly GW's screwed KO, sorry.

[Lord Veshnakar]

I swear it’s like the more people say KO are terrible now the more I find myself wanting to play them,  just because nothing beats that feeling of winning games when everyone says your army struggles. Also, I don’t know if this has been mentioned but the lord ordinators command ability is changed in the new book. I’m not sure to what but a friend that went to open day told me it had.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Lord Veshnakar

[Arkanaut Admiral]

I feel like the KO are going through the same thing the Imperial Guard went through a number of years back.  That their very own rules aren’t adapted to their playstyle.  Hopefully we’ll get a new book that’ll rectify all that,  just like the IG got.

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I swear it’s like the more people say KO are terrible now the more I find myself wanting to play them,  just because nothing beats that feeling of winning games when everyone says your army struggles. Also, I don’t know if this has been mentioned but the lord ordinators command ability is changed in the new book. I’m not sure to what but a friend that went to open day told me it had.

That's the spirit!!!

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I swear it’s like the more people say KO are terrible now the more I find myself wanting to play them,  just because nothing beats that feeling of winning games when everyone says your army struggles. Also, I don’t know if this has been mentioned but the lord ordinators command ability is changed in the new book. I’m not sure to what but a friend that went to open day told me it had.

Is it really KO if you derive your power from SCE allies?

[Gotchacoverd]

Full points list in case anyone didn't get the gh2018 yet

 

[Karchev23]

Im increasingly positive. The nerfs just mean that we have to adapt our play style and it also opens up our other less used Skyports. Thryng and Urbaz are personal stand outs for me. And if this change to thunderers is true ( not holding my breath ) it means that we have far more diverse lists. 

 

Bring on the comp year!

[Mohojoe]

1 hour ago, Karchev23 said:

Im increasingly positive. The nerfs just mean that we have to adapt our play style and it also opens up our other less used Skyports. Thryng and Urbaz are personal stand outs for me. And if this change to thunderers is true ( not holding my breath ) it means that we have far more diverse lists. 

 

Bring on the comp year!

Apparently the thunderers thing is a mistake. 

 

Im also liking the look of Thryng at the minute. Been toying with a few ideas for it. On a side note. The first time I got into KO thunderers got nerfed. When the new edition was announced I bought a load and they got nerfed again. Last week I bought an ordinator and he just got nerfed. Anyone want to pay me to buy a load of Nighthaunt and daughters of khaine and see if we can get them nerfed? ?

[Karchev23]

4 minutes ago, Mohojoe said:

Apparently the thunderers thing is a mistake. 

 

Im also liking the look of Thryng at the minute. Been toying with a few ideas for it. On a side note. The first time I got into KO thunderers got nerfed. When the new edition was announced I bought a load and they got nerfed again. Last week I bought an ordinator and he just got nerfed. Anyone want to pay me to buy a load of Nighthaunt and daughters of khaine and see if we can get them nerfed? ?

I feel your pain mate. I reeeeally do. 

[Mohojoe]

To be honest some of the nerfs are understandable. The bit I don’t like is how now you need to be reading from 4 different places to work out what your army does. I understand that we aren’t the flashy new army and we aren’t thevdesperately in need of dusting off old army, but I really think we need an updated Battletome. Even if it’s a digital only release to remove the cost of printing for GW. 

As someone fresh to playing KO it’s incredibly difficult to keep up with the FAQs , updated warscrolls point changes and online warscrolls. If I had just bought the Battletome I would be demanding a refund as it nigh on useless at this point 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Mohojoe said:

To be honest some of the nerfs are understandable. The bit I don’t like is how now you need to be reading from 4 different places to work out what your army does. I understand that we aren’t the flashy new army and we aren’t thevdesperately in need of dusting off old army, but I really think we need an updated Battletome. Even if it’s a digital only release to remove the cost of printing for GW. 

As someone fresh to playing KO it’s incredibly difficult to keep up with the FAQs , updated warscrolls point changes and online warscrolls. If I had just bought the Battletome I would be demanding a refund as it nigh on useless at this point 

 

Some nerfs are, others make no sense with the general trend of GW buffing many of the already tournament strong armies (SCE got a buff. Nurgle got a buff. Seraphon got a buff. ETC). Why put so much effort in nerfing KO?

 

It almost certainly has nothing to do with balance and how good the army is relative to others and most likely involves the way GW thinks you should play KO, but lacking the gumption to actually make that way good, instead preferring to just nerf any way the faction plays outside what they consider the true way until that's the only way to play, too bad you'll still lose most of your games.