AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

3 hours ago, Gauche said:

The Mega-Gargant is definitely fun but nowhere is he a named character, otherwise SoB couldn't give any of their models Artifacts either. He can take an Artifact just fine. I agree Gotrek is better, I just need a not-so-competitive list as well.

As for Gotrek, he's still too slow to work. In some Missions he's fine but in others you'll spend three Turns just getting him around. He also just dies to massed missile attacks so Cities, LRL, KO, DoT, and a few more armies will just nuke him if they want to. Now he's not hard to hide being so small of a model but that may dictate where he can go.

Double Ironclad felt very good. Went against Skaven and picked up Thanquol, two WLCs, an Archwarlock, a Bombadier, and 5 Acolytes on Turn 1 even with fairly poor dice rolling on my part. Thunderers didn't get out either so could have been a tad more damage. It was so nice not having the useless Frigate and I didn't miss the Khemists much. I really wish I had another Hero but three Endrinmasters is a good enough of a Battle Boat to put into Battleline and such.

Double Ironclad is the way, imo.  If the meta favors super high power units, then take 2 boats loaded up ~850pts each haha.  Maximum focus and the pre game move, and hero phase movements add even more flexibility to adapt to their deployments.

[Gauche]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

After 30 mins talking about mercenaris, I think that they are Allied units. Let me explain:

All three "Mercenaries" are not named characters (Designer's note even suggest that you can change their name) and the rules talk about "Mega-Gargant mercenaries", but there isn't anything specific in Core Book or GHB2021 that says what it is a Mercenary (only talks about Allies). So we only have the Mercenary Keyword and the Mercenary Ability for all Mega-Gargants in the Sons battletomes. Still, there isn't any problem to play with them.

But there is more, all three Mega-Gargant Mercenaries can ignore the max points for Allied Units and Mercenary Units, but the Pitched Battle (GHB2021) doesn't have any points for Mercenary Units, so you couldn't take any of them unless they are some type of Allied units (with their own "unique" Mercenary rules, as I said before).

So, if they are Mercenary Units, they can't be used in Pitched Battles (GHB2021) BUT if they are Allied Units, they can't take any Enhancement.

That's the most likely argument we found to say they're Allies but as with an ever-increasing number of things in 3rd, it's murky. Fortunately I only cared for purposes of a non-serious list but a definitive answer would be nice for everyone. :]

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

On a side note - has anyone tried running an Urbaz list with 6 or so gunhaulers with drill cannons to try and punch through the high saves that we see all over the place?  At least they count as 2 models for ojbectives now and drop bombs. I'd take some Bomblets on a frisky endrinmaster.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Black_Fortress_Immortal

[Magnild]

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords

- Sky Port: Barak Urbaz

- Mortal Realm: Ghur

- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain

- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Arkanaut Admiral (125)

- General

- Command Trait: Cunning Fleetmaster

Aetheric Navigator (95)

- Artefact: Svaregg-Stein Illuminator Flarepistol

Aetheric Navigator (95)

30 x Arkanaut Company (300)

- 3x Skypikes

- 3x Light Skyhooks

- 3x Aethermatic Volley Guns

- Reinforced x 2

1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (155)

- Main Gun: Drill Cannon

1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (155)

- Main Gun: Drill Cannon

1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (155)

- Main Gun: Drill Cannon

1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (155)

- Main Gun: Drill Cannon

10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270)

- 2x Aetheric Fumigators

- 2x Decksweepers

- 2x Aethercannons

- 2x Grundstok Mortars

- Reinforced x 1

Arkanaut Ironclad (490)

- Main Gun: Great Sky Cannon

- Great Endrinworks: Breath of Morgrim (Barak-Urbaz)

 

Total: 1995 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 3 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 124
 

trying this next week.  1 drop.  Pre game move of ironclad, unload foot thunderers, move ironclad and tag with navigator flare, arkanauts advance up with admiral, haulers spread out if needed and tag the Reroll target with drills.  Ideally the thunderers too haha.  Disembark within 6” (not wholly within) gives  some nice range.  Seems fun enough and flexible to take first or not:  Breath of morgrim is much better when your ship can get 3” away from the unit.

[Btimmy]

Here is my list for a TTO tourney coming up. Not planning on trying 100% or I would go Zilfen, but want to see how the Irondrakes + Rune Lord play. Give me your thoughts my bearded brethren: 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Thryng
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Aether-Khemist (90) in Command Entourage
Aetheric Navigator (95) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Svaregg-Stein Illuminator Flarepistol
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (190) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Supremely Stubborn
- Artefact: Grudgehammer
Arkanaut Admiral (125) in Battle Regiment
Runelord (100) in Command Entourage
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
3 x Endrinriggers (120) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 1x Grapnel Launchers
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2x Decksweepers
- 2x Aethercannons
- 1x Grundstok Mortars
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Irondrakes (320) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1
Arkanaut Ironclad (490) in Battle Regiment
- Main Gun: Aethermatic Volley Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word
Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 111

[Gauche]

11 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Here is my list for a TTO tourney coming up. Not planning on trying 100% or I would go Zilfen, but want to see how the Irondrakes + Rune Lord play. Give me your thoughts my bearded brethren: 

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Thryng
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Aether-Khemist (90) in Command Entourage
Aetheric Navigator (95) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Svaregg-Stein Illuminator Flarepistol
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (190) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Supremely Stubborn
- Artefact: Grudgehammer
Arkanaut Admiral (125) in Battle Regiment
Runelord (100) in Command Entourage
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
10 x Arkanaut Company (100) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Skypikes
- 1x Light Skyhooks
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
3 x Endrinriggers (120) in Battle Regiment
- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 1x Grapnel Launchers
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270) in Battle Regiment
- 2x Aetheric Fumigators
- 2x Decksweepers
- 2x Aethercannons
- 1x Grundstok Mortars
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Irondrakes (320) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1
Arkanaut Ironclad (490) in Battle Regiment
- Main Gun: Aethermatic Volley Cannon
- Great Endrinworks: The Last Word
Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 111

Looks very well-rounded, I took an almost identical list and it did well, just wasn't how I wanted to play. I dropped the Endrinriggers for a third Arkanaut unit and shuffled some other stuff around slightly but I think it was 95% the same. Irondrakes are super good, you just have to be very vigilant on defending them. Their Unleash Hell is good but not as scary as you think it would be on paper.

 

On my front double Ironclad has run well so far. I lost a very close game to DoK with the -1 to Hit Temple so feel super good about that. I think any other Temple would just get run over. DoK can't handle that much shooting vanilla, their units are so papery and we get around the Blood Stalker Deathstar so well. I expect them to be a pretty strong Faction so that was a buoying experience.

[Frowny]

Has anyone tried big units of arkonauts? They seem to be good targets for unleash hell. Short range doesn't matter! Only 300 points and almost nothing wants to charge them.

Also, i don't remember. Is anyone a priest? Curse seems amazing with massed arkonauts fire.

[Magnild]

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

Has anyone tried big units of arkonauts? They seem to be good targets for unleash hell. Short range doesn't matter! Only 300 points and almost nothing wants to charge them.

Also, i don't remember. Is anyone a priest? Curse seems amazing with massed arkonauts fire.

I’ve done a 30 block in a 1 drop mhornar list.  They’re very sticky with an admiral nearby, and especially when you get near an objective.  Tbh they’re one of the best units we have now imo.

[stratigo]

XD Durnit I do not want arkanaut armies. Boats are the heart of the faction, not dwarves with their 4 inches of movement.

[Beliman]

21 minutes ago, stratigo said:

XD Durnit I do not want arkanaut armies. Boats are the heart of the faction, not dwarves with their 4 inches of movement.

We 1.0 again boyz!!!!! 🤣

[Gauche]

Running some numbers on Arkanauts their output is respectable and you can easily put 100 of them on the table. Probably one big unit up front then single units both because of Reinforcements and to get extra Volley Pistols or maybe two big units. Admiral is necessary then probably just as many Aether-Khemists as is necessary for the re-rolls and the -1 to Hit.

Sky Ports could go a lot of ways. Custom one gives you Run and Shoot in Turn 1 and an open Command Trait. Barak-Nar lets you get two Immune to Battleshock Auras and the Unbinds. Zilfin lets you run 6" Auto and a pre-game move with a big block but that seems mediocre. Mhornar gives Run and Shoot Turn 1, , a once per game Fight First, and one of the best artifacts in the army. Finally Thryng provides some combat protection from stuff dying uselessly, re-roll 1's (big), and a good once per game.

I'd probably go Mhornar, the Command Trait is 100% useless but it is what it is. Weakness is other Shooting armies and Magic. I think you'd just straight up lose to another KO army, an Ironclad just pick up an average of 10 bodies a Turn without any buffs. Against one plus 40 Thunderers, a common package, you lose another 14 a Turn with no buffs so you get tabled in 4 Turns, less with Battleshock maybe.

I think where the list would fall apart is just the threat ranges, 13" is so little. Fast armies will just pick a flank, kill that, and you can't bring everything to bear. Some Missions would also be really hard. Seems like one of those lists that looks good on paper but really struggles on the tabletop. That said you could get like 140 Arkanauts easily...

[stratigo]

Please, no, not 140 arkanauts, no. 

 

Oh god the horror. The horror!

[Frowny]

But it isn't all or nothing. 30 Arkonauts to move up the middle is quite cheap. It can even be fit in the double frigate lists people are looking at. 

Something like

3x Heroes (Khemist, Navigator, navigator) 

30 xArkonauts, all weapons (on foot)

20x Arkonauts (In the big frigate)

10 x Arkonauts

2x Ironclads 

Should be doable in 2000 points. And honestly, this is what I'd try to start, possibly trying to fit in a gunhauler to get a little more mobility. 

[Beliman]

It will be hard to return to 60 arkanauts... 

[stratigo]

it will be depressing. 

 

And also I am... not convinced they are actually useful.

 

 

[Gauche]

7 hours ago, Frowny said:

But it isn't all or nothing. 30 Arkonauts to move up the middle is quite cheap. It can even be fit in the double frigate lists people are looking at. 

Something like

3x Heroes (Khemist, Navigator, navigator) 

30 xArkonauts, all weapons (on foot)

20x Arkonauts (In the big frigate)

10 x Arkonauts

2x Ironclads 

Should be doable in 2000 points. And honestly, this is what I'd try to start, possibly trying to fit in a gunhauler to get a little more mobility. 

That seems strictly inferior to double Ironclad double Thunderers. You have one slow 'Clad that will take ages to deliver the Arkanauts at 5" and no Fly High. No Healing. No Combat. Can't pair with ABP because the units are too big so they're either stranded or still no Fly High. What would be the upsides?

[Magnild]

30 minutes ago, Gauche said:

That seems strictly inferior to double Ironclad double Thunderers. You have one slow 'Clad that will take ages to deliver the Arkanauts at 5" and no Fly High. No Healing. No Combat. Can't pair with ABP because the units are too big so they're either stranded or still no Fly High. What would be the upsides?

Yuuup we will start seeing Black Fortress’ double IC list around I am sure haha.  I’ll try against 4 gargant list today then.

[Gauche]

2 hours ago, Magnild said:

Yuuup we will start seeing Black Fortress’ double IC list around I am sure haha.  I’ll try against 4 gargant list today then.

Interested to see how that goes as they're a major player right now and I think one of KOs best matchups. Gargants can't do much of anything against guns, at best it's TFH one, 5++ one, AoD one. Then you just kill the other one. Next kill the one that lacks TFH and from there it's smoother sailing. -1 to Hit also wrecks them if you can get it.

[Magnild]

3 hours ago, Gauche said:

Interested to see how that goes as they're a major player right now and I think one of KOs best matchups. Gargants can't do much of anything against guns, at best it's TFH one, 5++ one, AoD one. Then you just kill the other one. Next kill the one that lacks TFH and from there it's smoother sailing. -1 to Hit also wrecks them if you can get it.

It was garbage.  Apex predators.  Just stack save bonuses like mystic shield, all out defense and finest hour on some gargants and sit on points with 0 skill bonehead builds where they get all these free bonus points just for being monsters.  This edition blows.  You’ll see lots of stupid monster spam where they get a lead and you can barely struggle to get back.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

11 minutes ago, Magnild said:

It was garbage.  Apex predators.  Just stack save bonuses like mystic shield, all out defense and finest hour on some gargants and sit on points with 0 skill bonehead builds where they get all these free bonus points just for being monsters.  This edition blows.  You’ll see lots of stupid monster spam where they get a lead and you can barely struggle to get back.

Core rules were alright, and the GHB ruins the game.  Goodluck playing monster-mash, or pray to get lucky with your dice, because anyone with half a brain and a few monsters will win.

[Gauche]

3 hours ago, Magnild said:

It was garbage.  Apex predators.  Just stack save bonuses like mystic shield, all out defense and finest hour on some gargants and sit on points with 0 skill bonehead builds where they get all these free bonus points just for being monsters.  This edition blows.  You’ll see lots of stupid monster spam where they get a lead and you can barely struggle to get back.

Yeah that's definitely the worst Mission for KO against nearly anything. I wouldn't be too bitter, that's his best possible Mission and your worst. Anything else is a lot tougher.

[Magnild]

4 hours ago, Gauche said:

Yeah that's definitely the worst Mission for KO against nearly anything. I wouldn't be too bitter, that's his best possible Mission and your worst. Anything else is a lot tougher.

It’s not just the mission, it’s the free points the armies rack up on their battle tactics for being a monster.  They complete the same battle tactics as anyone else, but the game rewards the superhero monsters even more.  Say you’re charged and forced out to whittle down 2 to low wounds, and they die in the same round for whatever reason - you still only get +1 per round that they’re slain.  Also, just fight at top bracket whenever you want for a command point.  

[Gauche]

11 hours ago, Magnild said:

It’s not just the mission, it’s the free points the armies rack up on their battle tactics for being a monster.  They complete the same battle tactics as anyone else, but the game rewards the superhero monsters even more.  Say you’re charged and forced out to whittle down 2 to low wounds, and they die in the same round for whatever reason - you still only get +1 per round that they’re slain.  Also, just fight at top bracket whenever you want for a command point.  

Yup those all exist. I'm not sure what list you took but I make sure I can drop a Gargant a Turn with plenty of guns extra, it's just something your list has to be able to do if you're looking to play competitively. SoB are a very cheap army to get (if you use non-GW sculpts), very easy to play, and massively rewarding. They're one of the big DPS Checks but we have all the tools to beat it. One of the positives is it's an easy matchup to work out on paper because they have so few permutations and have such a direct game plan.

[Magnild]

17 minutes ago, Gauche said:

Yup those all exist. I'm not sure what list you took but I make sure I can drop a Gargant a Turn with plenty of guns extra, it's just something your list has to be able to do if you're looking to play competitively. SoB are a very cheap army to get (if you use non-GW sculpts), very easy to play, and massively rewarding. They're one of the big DPS Checks but we have all the tools to beat it. One of the positives is it's an easy matchup to work out on paper because they have so few permutations and have such a direct game plan.

20 thunderers 2 ironclads 2 Khemist that was posted before.  Taking out a gargant with +2 save rolls on paper may seem easy I guess.  But they bunch them up, goodluck getting in range and counter charged and wrecked.

[Gauche]

2 hours ago, Magnild said:

20 thunderers 2 ironclads 2 Khemist that was posted before.  Taking out a gargant with +2 save rolls on paper may seem easy I guess.  But they bunch them up, goodluck getting in range and counter charged and wrecked.

Why would you ever shoot the one that's on a 2+? They have four targets. At the very best one can get TFH, one can get the 5++ Relic, one can get AoD. Mystic Shield is a possibility but lists I've seen aren't running it over the 5++ and I don't think it's a good build for them.

With the guns you brought you can easily punch through the weak one. If they stack bonuses then there are two weak ones so you have some choice. If they bunch up then they lose the Mission, just not the one you played because it's insanely stacked in their favor and one of the worst Missions in the GHB, you just plink away and play not to get doubled.

Still just a loss due to the Mission, try the matchup again with literally any other Mission and I think you'd have a better time. :] Personally I'm hoping SoB get more and more popular, they dumpster the armies that we struggle with for the moment.