AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[japaricio]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:35 PM, Boar said:

Prevelance of KO in top 5 of tournaments results appear to contradict that.

There are also attempts at more indepth analysis by folks out there.

 

Can you link to more detalied information?

 

I think everything I have seen is about how many players do we have, and not how well we are performing in tournaments against real threats.

[Phasteon]

I just switched to Barak Nar from Zilfin and yeah, losing the free move really hurts. 

Apart from that I think Barak Nar has its merits too, but you effectively need an extra turn to get where you want. 

In an army with focus on shooting/mobility such an ability kinda creates the Petrifex problem. 

Other options are solid as well but completely overshadowed by how hard of a decisive advantage that rule is. 

This + the fact that every other thing about Zilfins rules is useful too, where others have „dead traits“ eg. Barak Nar: „Respect your Commanders“ - wtf... 

Or the command trait which makes Admirals as general just plain stupid.. 

Zilfin get reroll 1s against fly with ships, 6“ run AND the free move, bonus endrinwork, a mandatory trait which can easily be avoided AND a pretty solid artifact on our goto-general (Flying Endrinmaster) 

... Yeah I think they kind of need to rebalance it a bit in hindsight, just to make it less of THE nobrainer choice.

 

Edit: Also there are so many named Heroes with bonkers force multiplier rules and what do we get? Reroll charges for an army that doesnt even want to charge most of the time or can easily get the reroll elsewhere... 

„To the Victor the spoils“ my a.... 😒

Why not give Brokk the chance to grant a unit new aethergold shares or something we cant get otherwise to make him the most awesome skyfarer dwarf of all time not only in the lore.... 

But that is just wishful thinking. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Phasteon

[Boar]

3 hours ago, japaricio said:

Can you link to more detalied information?

You can find more in dude's twitter mostley , ie. how ELO was calculated and some discusion on skill expression. I think he was on Honest Wargamer some time ago.

https://twitter.com/jpganis/status/1305855855640940546

https://twitter.com/jpganis/status/1306534854063017987

3 hours ago, japaricio said:

I think everything I have seen is about how many players do we have, and not how well we are performing in tournaments against real threats.

I don't exactly know what you are getting at, care to clarify?

[Beliman]

4 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Other options are solid as well but completely overshadowed by how hard of a decisive advantage that rule is. 

That's a big problem. You can "emulate" the Zilfin alpha using Barak Urbaz and an Admiral General (1 or 2 drops with Iron Sky Command) with the Cunning Fleetmaster or just play Mhornar (1 or 2 drops with Iron Sky Command too), but nobody does that because it's really easy to play Zilfin (btw, I stopped playing Zilfin three months ago).

I'm really curious what Broken Realms will give us. Maybe a new Barak with another type of play? I'm struggling a bit with Barak-Zon and a new one that buff our melee tactics could help.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Beliman

[Phasteon]

Problem is that no matter how awesome most things in the tome are, there are some really lazy design choices. 

1) Mandatory Box Hero. 

Its fitting that Skywardens/Endrinriggers are conditional battleline, but why to that new hero GW wants us to buy... i mean cmon, he is pretty nice anyway, Riggers should be battleline no matter which Endrinmaster you take as a general. 

Skywardens should be battleline if Admiral is general. Give Brokk Admiral keyword as he is one. 

Give Admiral CA: +1 hit for a unit of Skywardens, Brokk a +1 for himself and Skywardens wholly within 12“ et voila, you kind of made them all viable ... kind of. 

2) redundancy of abilities, lack of others

Make all traits count, why would you double and triple up on an ability to give immunity to battleshock and then add traits so let you reroll battleshock while Arks and Thunderers can do it most of the time anyway via warscroll..... 

Khemists are legit because they are low cost and ofc Spell in a bottle but cmon, the whole KO society is based around their scientific shenanigans - why a lousy reroll 1s to wound?

Why not make them 120-140 again and let them choose: 

- reroll wounds / +1 to wound

- another -1 rend

- ... 

on a roll of 3+ so its not OP or w/e, as it is its just bland design... 

 

Other than that the army is fine, but there are some details that really annoy the hell out of me. 

If some better rules would have been „too op“ increase points or w/e

 

[Badlander86]

I've been mixing it up with Fyreslayers and have been having fun if nothing else with Barak Thyrng. I have a question when it comes to Prayers though. Can an allied Fyreslayer priest or a Priest with the Barak Thyring keyword have access to Fyreslayer prayers or magmatic invocations. I like the idea of popping the runi Fyrewall  to deny a charge or to inflict mortal wounds with the Flame-spitter on enemy hordes.

 

 

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Badlander86 said:

I've been mixing it up with Fyreslayers and have been having fun if nothing else with Barak Thyrng. I have a question when it comes to Prayers though. Can an allied Fyreslayer priest or a Priest with the Barak Thyring keyword have access to Fyreslayer prayers or magmatic invocations. I like the idea of popping the runi Fyrewall  to deny a charge or to inflict mortal wounds with the Flame-spitter on enemy hordes.

Imo, they can't chant their prayers: Artefactes, traits, spell lores, prayers, etc... are part of their Allegiance Abilities. If you take KOs, you can only have KO's Allegiance Abilities.

I don't know if there is anything that can bypass this restriccion, I remember that AoS1.0 had a Sylvaneth battallion that allowed to export 1 Sylvaneth spell outside of their Allegiance but not sure if it exist something like that anymore.

[GrimDork]

2 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

I've been mixing it up with Fyreslayers and have been having fun if nothing else with Barak Thyrng. I have a question when it comes to Prayers though. Can an allied Fyreslayer priest or a Priest with the Barak Thyring keyword have access to Fyreslayer prayers or magmatic invocations. I like the idea of popping the runi Fyrewall  to deny a charge or to inflict mortal wounds with the Flame-spitter on enemy hordes.

 

 

Not positive on this, but I’d think they could use the prayer printed on their warscroll but not any available as part of allegiance ability.

I’d argue they could use a magmic invocation as it’s purchased in same way as an endless spell? Not 100% certain (tho I’d be happy playing against it).

[Forehead]

I'm with Grimdork on this, I've been playing as Lethisian Defenders with a mix of KO, Fyreslayers and a SC priest. The FS priests definitely get the prayer on their warscroll and I've had no complaints from opponents about taking Magmic Invocations, they are just only available to my FS priest and not the SCE priest. You lose a lot of the FS power without their allegiance ability but HGB and VB are both still really good, they make good allies for KO's mobility.

[Beliman]

On 11/26/2020 at 7:39 AM, GrimDork said:

Not positive on this, but I’d think they could use the prayer printed on their warscroll but not any available as part of allegiance ability.

I’d argue they could use a magmic invocation as it’s purchased in same way as an endless spell? Not 100% certain (tho I’d be happy playing against it).

100% agree on prayers printed on their warscrolls (I was talking about the rules on their battletome).
Not sure about the magmic invocations, I think that there is a rule on their battletome that allows them to use Magmic Invocations. 

[Boar]

On 11/26/2020 at 7:39 AM, GrimDork said:

magmic invocation

It's under allegiance abilities, so no

[GrimDork]

2 hours ago, Boar said:

It's under allegiance abilities, so no

Ah ok, don’t have the FS tome.

Kinda related general Q, do faction specific endless spells come under allegiance ability or could you ally in for example a stormcast wizard and use the everblaze comet in a non stormcast allegiance army?

If you can, I’d argue there is no difference in using a priest and purchasing a magmic invocation.

Not arguing the point, happy to accept it if it’s not possible, just wondered?

[Boar]

38 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Ah ok, don’t have the FS tome.

Kinda related general Q, do faction specific endless spells come under allegiance ability or could you ally in for example a stormcast wizard and use the everblaze comet in a non stormcast allegiance army?

If you can, I’d argue there is no difference in using a priest and purchasing a magmic invocation.

Not arguing the point, happy to accept it if it’s not possible, just wondered?

Endless spells are usually under warscrolls so they are legal, and reference core rules obv. Fyreslayers prayers mechanic is in Allegiance abilities hence difference. Also AFAIK it's spelled outright in rules that they can use Invocations in Fyreslayers army.

[Badlander86]

So I am still losing more than I win despite being an "OP" faction. In fact recorded my 4th straight loss yesterday against a 3 Great Unclean One Nurgle list and 2 blobs of 3 Plaguebearers and Belikor just shutting down my Ironclad.  I basically wiped the board with all my ships intact but Blade's Edge favours a horde build and just couldn't outscore the opponent. 

Regardless I am determined to keep brewing. Yesterday I found that a 30 man blob of Arkanauts in Urbaz is pretty decent. 43 pistol shots with rerolls trades up pretty well before including all the special weapons. 

And I want to try more alternatives. I am looking at playing Cunning Fleetmaster as a General Trait to threat WLV without Zilfin but need to clarify something:

- Cunning Fleetmaster allows a "before the Round begins" move for either a Gunhauler or a Frigate. Could I hitch some Skyriggers along with the target ship? This could help make a bigger threat by relocating an entire strike force, forcing difficults decisions before T1 like blocking off  Gnawhole , even if you don't play T1.

 

 

[stratigo]

KO aren't an easy win army. If you don't build the list right and play that list well, you're in for a tough time.

[Badlander86]

27 minutes ago, stratigo said:

KO aren't an easy win army. If you don't build the list right and play that list well, you're in for a tough time.

Which is why losing feels bad. Because things like Meta Watch will give the impression that it is. So when you lose, not only does it give the opponent a bigger boost beating the "best army" in the game, but you feel dumb losing as the "best army" in the game. 

It makes casual games all the spikier and the feel bads even worse.

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

- Cunning Fleetmaster allows a "before the Round begins" move for either a Gunhauler or a Frigate. Could I hitch some Skyriggers along with the target ship? This could help make a bigger threat by relocating an entire strike force, forcing difficults decisions before T1 like blocking off  Gnawhole , even if you don't play T1.

Imo, yes, you can.

There is a FAQ that explicity say that you can "hitch" your balloon boys even if you use an hability to Fly High in another timing than the movement phase (ex.: Zilfin's footnote).

 

 

[Badlander86]

12 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Imo, yes, you can.

There is a FAQ that explicity say that you can "hitch" your balloon boys even if you use an hability to Fly High in another timing than the movement phase (ex.: Zilfin's footnote).

 

 

Nice. Then another clarification. If I have a three-drop list, an Iron Sky Command with 2 Gunhaulers, one of which is given the Transportation trait. When I drop my Iron Sky Command LAST, can I separate the drop of the Aether-Khemist into the transportation Gunhauler instead?

 

 

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

So I am still losing more than I win despite being an "OP" faction

We’re not. There is one main very strong build. And a couple of offshoots. And even then you need to play very well to win. 
 

the term OP is a bit misplaced Imo. Becomes it makes you think it’s an auto win. It’s not. A 3 keepers list was pretty much an auto win. Still needs some skill. But a lot less. 
 

so don’t feel bad and try to learn from every game and as soon as you get your target priority right you’ll start winning more and more. 

[Boar]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

Imo, yes, you can.

There is a FAQ that explicity say that you can "hitch" your balloon boys even if you use an hability to Fly High in another timing than the movement phase (ex.: Zilfin's footnote).

Problem I see is that in this case it happens before 1st round of battle. Since battle didn't really start, other abilities wouldn't apply. Unless there are some similar situations in other battletomes that could be used as precedence?

[Beliman]

47 minutes ago, Boar said:

Problem I see is that in this case it happens before 1st round of battle. Since battle didn't really start, other abilities wouldn't apply. Unless there are some similar situations in other battletomes that could be used as precedence?

 Maybe I'm wrong, but Hitcher doesn't need a phase to trigger (doesn't matter if it's before the first round), it only needs Fly High: "If this unit is wholly within 6" of a friendly SKYVESSEL immediately before the SKYVESSEL uses its Fly High ability"

The Cunning Fleetmaster gives you a normal move (as Zilfin Footnote) after armies are set-up and the game already started. It shoudn't stop us to do the trick.

[Boar]

9 minutes ago, Beliman said:

 Maybe I'm wrong, but Hitcher doesn't need a phase to trigger (doesn't matter if it's before the first round), it only needs Fly High: "If this unit is wholly within 6" of a friendly SKYVESSEL immediately before the SKYVESSEL uses its Fly High ability"

The Cunning Fleetmaster gives you a normal move (as Zilfin Footnote) after armies are set-up and the game already started. It shoudn't stop us to do the trick.

I was initially of the same opinion as you, I even started writting in support of that for the very reasons you point to. Thing is Zilfin's move is at least inside battle round, and in this instance it's before any battlerounds. 

Look for example at this excerpt from core rules:

Quote

THE BATTLE BEGINS With the battleplan chosen and the battlefield prepared, you are now ready to deploy your armies ready for the coming conflict. Before the battle begins you must set up your army, choose your general, and use any pre-battle abilities

This could be used to argue of difference between pre-battle ability and other's. Hence of inability to use latter pre-battle.

 

So I am not 100% on this, but after this fragment from AoS Rules I am leaning more towards this interpretation.

[Badlander86]

25 minutes ago, Boar said:

I was initially of the same opinion as you, I even started writting in support of that for the very reasons you point to. Thing is Zilfin's move is at least inside battle round, and in this instance it's before any battlerounds. 

Look for example at this excerpt from core rules:

This could be used to argue of difference between pre-battle ability and other's. Hence of inability to use latter pre-battle.

 

So I am not 100% on this, but after this fragment from AoS Rules I am leaning more towards this interpretation.

I think this is the safer interpretation. Still allows for an Endless Spell drop but not to get a full Alpha strike off with 6 Skyriggers and a Balloon hero. Was worth a shot.

[Beliman]

 

27 minutes ago, Badlander86 said:

I think this is the safer interpretation. Still allows for an Endless Spell drop but not to get a full Alpha strike off with 6 Skyriggers and a Balloon hero. Was worth a shot.

I think that @Boar is right  too. It seems that we can't use the normal move before the first round to make a Fly High (it is an ability too). 
It still is nice to have a 12" move before the first round (WLV mainly, but others have a nice thread range too) and we still have the 36" meteor too.

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

 

I think that @Boar is right  too. It seems that we can't use the normal move before the first round to make a Fly High (it is an ability too). 
It still is nice to have a 12" move before the first round (WLV mainly, but others have a nice thread range too) and we still have the 36" meteor too.

Admirals Trait specifically mentions using Fly High unless it's Ironclad