AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[5kaven5lave]

1 hour ago, Sttufe said:

I could see that, I don't have much experience with them so that makes sense. They can be nice if you have a 5 man slot in your hauler though, just kinda reinforcing it and being a much faster deployment.

I do actually have 5 in my current list and use them for this exactly. Love the models and really want to play them so have them as a concession to the rule of cool. 

[Phasteon]

Obviously the best use for Thunderers is screened by Arkanauts on an objective. Special Weapons loadout for +1 hit / +1 attack in close combat. 

There they are brutal. 

[5kaven5lave]

1 hour ago, Phasteon said:

Obviously the best use for Thunderers is screened by Arkanauts on an objective. Special Weapons loadout for +1 hit / +1 attack in close combat. 

There they are brutal. 

Don’t doubt that for a second, I just wonder at how many points you’re paying for how much damage output you’re getting. And also how manoeuvrable they are. 290 points for 6 Riggers and 10 ArCo vs. 240 for 10 Thunderers for example is a no brainer for me. 

[Nightgaunt]

44 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Don’t doubt that for a second, I just wonder at how many points you’re paying for how much damage output you’re getting. And also how manoeuvrable they are. 290 points for 6 Riggers and 10 ArCo vs. 240 for 10 Thunderers for example is a no brainer for me. 

Would you give the Riggers any special weapons in this example or leave them standard? It's not something I had considered before.

[5kaven5lave]

My disclaimer here: I don’t claim to be a good player at all.

Anyway, FWIW, it’s all about the special weapons for me. Drill Launcher and Volley Guns. Hitch them to a ship and blast away. If not that 12” move is a thing of beauty, even a 18” Zilfin hero phase run-move if it all hangs in the balance. 

[Nightgaunt]

20 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

My disclaimer here: I don’t claim to be a good player at all.

Anyway, FWIW, it’s all about the special weapons for me. Drill Launcher and Volley Guns. Hitch them to a ship and blast away. If not that 12” move is a thing of beauty, even a 18” Zilfin hero phase run-move if it all hangs in the balance. 

Appreciate the disclaimer but you have more experience than me, Admiral. As I sit building my Aether War box I can't help but browse around for ideas on what to try in a list.

[Sttufe]

5 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

Appreciate the disclaimer but you have more experience than me, Admiral. As I sit building my Aether War box I can't help but browse around for ideas on what to try in a list.

Something I didn't realize when i first looked at them was that even the special weapons riggers could still roll for ships healing, meaning I could take however many special weapon riggers without dampening their healing capacity.

In terms of a model with 2 wounds and a 4+ save, I have found no duardin that manages that (ugh). I am now looking at the rest of the cities units and then I am moving to looking at other order armies that make some kind of sense (SCE probably)

Edited March 14, 2020 by Sttufe

[readercolin]

6 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

Would you give the Riggers any special weapons in this example or leave them standard? It's not something I had considered before.

Consider how you are going to use them.  Lets take some squads of 6 as an example.

With the normal guns, a squad of 6 is going to deal ~6 damage at range.  However, because they all have saws, they can also deal ~7.8 damage in melee.  If we give them special weapons, then we bump the ranged damage up to ~7 damage at range.  However, the melee damage drops to ~4.  (Note, all numbers before taking into account save rolls).

What this means is that if we want a unit that can sit back and get a little bit of sniping on, and maybe accompany a long ranged ship, then the special weapons are a good idea.  However, if your plan is to drop a ship in at 10" away to unload with all of its guns, then we don't lose much by using the normal shots.  But, we get to double their melee damage output, which is going to make them a better screen for the ships as they are slightly scarier for the opponent to charge into.  We still aren't talking about boatloads of damage for a 200 point investment though.  Looking at some of the other dedicated cavalry that you can pick up for ~180-200 points, they are all averaging ~9.8-11.6 damage before any outside buffs come in.

If you want a dedicated "Cavalry" unit, you need to look at Skywardens in Barak Zon.  A squad of 6 of these guys will put out ~14.4 damage on the charge, putting them in the same range as a unit of buffed Chaos Knights, or buffed Demigryphs.  However, in exchange for the melee damage, you lose out on all ranged damage beyond 9", which means you can't shoot after flying high, and are only actually effective when charging.

For me, I would generally look to run units of riggers without any special weapons.  The extra 1 damage at range is a little inconsistent (you have 2 units that get 1 shot for 3 damage, vs 3 shots for 1 damage each), and you lose too much melee damage to function effectively as a screen.  Plus, a 12" range is more than close enough to hit things after flying high.  I would only look to run special weapons if I had something very specific that I was planning on doing with them.  I would also only look to run skywardens if I was wanting to run them in Barak Zon, and I would probably spend a good bit of time proxying them first before settling on that specific skyport and build, because no one else wants to use skywardens in the same way (cause they will only deal ~8.6 damage outside of zon - a 33% drop in melee damage, and they still don't function as fly-high ranged attackers).  Also, at $40/3 models... yeah... I'm not going to be collecting droves of them.

[DavionStar]

Idea for hitching Wardens on a boat flying high.

If your opponent has flyers in range to charge, use Wardens as a screen since they can punish charging flyers. If not, do the reverse. Hide the Wardens behind the boat and wait for the enemy to make their move. Then the following turn you can move in, shoot and charge them.

Also, a question. Bomb Racks rule says "At the start of the combat phase". Does that mean only my combat phase or ANY combat phase?

[5kaven5lave]

6 hours ago, DavionStar said:

Idea for hitching Wardens on a boat flying high.

If your opponent has flyers in range to charge, use Wardens as a screen since they can punish charging flyers. If not, do the reverse. Hide the Wardens behind the boat and wait for the enemy to make their move. Then the following turn you can move in, shoot and charge them.

Also, a question. Bomb Racks rule says "At the start of the combat phase". Does that mean only my combat phase or ANY combat phase?

Yeah, it helps to be adaptable with your Rigger placement. Ships can heal wounds but Riggers can’t normally be healed up or rezzed so sometimes it’s better to let the ship take a few to heal them back next round.

Re: Combat Phase question, it’s any player’s  phase unless stated otherwise. 

[DavionStar]

6 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Yeah, it helps to be adaptable with your Rigger placement. Ships can heal wounds but Riggers can’t normally be healed up or rezzed so sometimes it’s better to let the ship take a few to heal them back next round.

Re: Combat Phase question, it’s any player’s  phase unless stated otherwise. 

Ok yeah, that's pretty big. Charge any of our boats and risk immediate mortal wounds. I'll have to remember that.

Also since I'm a hopeless dingus who desperately wants Skywardens to be really good. I'm taking a look at some of the other Codes, Command Traits and Artefacts that we have outside of the main Sky Ports that could be useful for them. I only found one. Pretty much all the Command Traits only affect the Hero themself.

Footnote: There's No Trading With Some People. Once a battle a unit that has run/retreated this turn can still shoot/charge.

Retreat with Wardens to use their Timed Charges, then shoot and charge back in to fight again. Only once per battle but potentially worth it if the unit survived to the turn after their initial charge. Can't get this Footnote in a Zon list, sadly. You COULD potentially get this Footnote into an Urbaz list though. The Urbaz command trait is only mandatory if your General is Khemist. But if your General is an Admiral you could give them A Scholar and an Arkanaut to pick an extra Footnote.

Whether this is better than just going Zon and giving Wardens 3+ hit and 2+ wound on all their charges though is another question. Zon pretty much gives Wardens the same melee profile as Riggers on the charge. Riggers still have the -2 rend but Wardens get 2 attacks with their Pikes at 2".

It's not gonna stop me trying to use Wardens in other lists though. I am as stubborn as a dwarf on this. XD What's the worst that's gonna happen? The Wardens get slaughtered and I potentially lose the game. Boo hoo, I'll try something different the next time. I'm still new, I'm gonna lose a lot anyways. 😜

 

[Sttufe]

4 hours ago, DavionStar said:

Ok yeah, that's pretty big. Charge any of our boats and risk immediate mortal wounds. I'll have to remember that.

Also since I'm a hopeless dingus who desperately wants Skywardens to be really good. I'm taking a look at some of the other Codes, Command Traits and Artefacts that we have outside of the main Sky Ports that could be useful for them. I only found one. Pretty much all the Command Traits only affect the Hero themself.

Footnote: There's No Trading With Some People. Once a battle a unit that has run/retreated this turn can still shoot/charge.

Retreat with Wardens to use their Timed Charges, then shoot and charge back in to fight again. Only once per battle but potentially worth it if the unit survived to the turn after their initial charge. Can't get this Footnote in a Zon list, sadly. You COULD potentially get this Footnote into an Urbaz list though. The Urbaz command trait is only mandatory if your General is Khemist. But if your General is an Admiral you could give them A Scholar and an Arkanaut to pick an extra Footnote.

Whether this is better than just going Zon and giving Wardens 3+ hit and 2+ wound on all their charges though is another question. Zon pretty much gives Wardens the same melee profile as Riggers on the charge. Riggers still have the -2 rend but Wardens get 2 attacks with their Pikes at 2".

It's not gonna stop me trying to use Wardens in other lists though. I am as stubborn as a dwarf on this. XD What's the worst that's gonna happen? The Wardens get slaughtered and I potentially lose the game. Boo hoo, I'll try something different the next time. I'm still new, I'm gonna lose a lot anyways. 😜

 

My thoughts exactly, I love the sky wardens, they look so good and I feel like theyshould be better, a fast cavalry unit perfectly suits an aggressive tactic, so I will keep plugging away at charging my enemies high value targets (because charging a unit of 60 stabbas sucks when 15 fanatics jump out  ). Oh wait, I ave an idea, maybe I am not using enough wardens...

[Nightgaunt]

How does everyone feel about Gunhaulers, are they worth it? I will hopefully magnetize the gun but was curious if anyone used Drill Cannons on them, they seem less flexible than the standard cannon. Also what Endrinworks do you like best on haulers? Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments seems like a really useful one, but if I run two and have the space I'm not sure how the others stack up.

[Evil Bob]

On 3/13/2020 at 11:09 AM, Sttufe said:

I could see that, I don't have much experience with them so that makes sense. They can be nice if you have a 5 man slot in your hauler though, just kinda reinforcing it and being a much faster deployment.

Don’t let them get in your head.  Anyone who says Thunderers are too expensive to use and then flips the argument saying Ironclads ARE worth it isn’t being honest.

Most things KO are expensive (by wound count) and depend heavily on how they are used.  Local meta and such throw things all over the place when finding value.  I’ve stopped a charging Frost Lord on a Stonehorn cold using 15 Thunderers with choking Fug trap.  My Champion of Progress Khemist nearby they held him there three rounds until the big fella was finally dropped.    A thousand points of Barack Nar wiped the floor with a thousand points of assaulting Boulderhead with close to fifty percent KO casualties verses a sole surviving Butcher in his backfield,  The home objective was still held by my Arkanauts even after his teammate (who was playing Ziffin had mostly killed my teammate) flew over and then finally was able to shoot those Thunderers down to two models that fled during battleshock.

A few notes

• That one Thunderers unit did not kill the Frost Lord at their 40 point cheaper point value.  They just tanked it in an eye popping way.
• All charging Mournfang died by the end of my following shooting phase.
• Majority of wounds on the Frost Lord were from Battleline except for a few from the Khemist.
• To-Hit penalties from choking fug and atmospheric isolation are brutal.
• A Hail Mary spell from the Butcher sniping the Khemist gave the Frost Lord a moment of hope before he was gunned down by two units of Thunderers and a block of twenty Arkanauts.  It took every shot (and close combat)  to finish the job.

If people were seriously concerned about point min-maxing we’d see lists of Arkanauts and Gunhaulers with discussions of how many Riggers to include for the maneuver element.

 

tl;dr- KO Battletome has a lot of moving parts and broad statements on individual units is misleading.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Evil Bob
Missing (and close combat)

[zilberfrid]

32 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

Don’t let them get in your head.  Anyone who says Thunderers are too expensive to use and then flips the argument saying Ironclads ARE worth it isn’t being honest.

Most things KO are expensive (by wound count) and depend heavily on how they are used.  Local meta and such throw things all over the place when finding value.  I’ve stopped a charging Frost Lord on a Stonehorn cold using 15 Thunderers with choking Fug trap.  My Champion of Progress Khemist nearby they held him there three rounds until the big fella was finally dropped.    A thousand points of Barack Nar wiped the floor with a thousand points of assaulting Boulderhead with close to fifty percent KO casualties verses a sole surviving Butcher in his backfield,  The home objective was still held by my Arkanauts even after his teammate (who was playing Ziffin had mostly killed my teammate) flew over and then finally was able to shoot those Thunderers down to two models that fled during battleshock.

A few notes

• That one Thunderers unit did not kill the Frost Lord at their 40 point cheaper point value.  They just tanked it in an eye popping way.
• All charging Mournfang died by the end of my following shooting phase.
• Majority of wounds on the Frost Lord were from Battleline except for a few from the Khemist.
• To-Hit penalties from choking fug and atmospheric isolation are brutal.
• A Hail Mary spell from the Butcher sniping the Khemist gave the Frost Lord a moment of hope before he was gunned down by two units of Thunderers and a block of twenty Arkanauts.  It took every shot (and close combat)  to finish the job.

If people were seriously concerned about point min-maxing we’d see lists of Arkanauts and Gunhaulers with discussions of how many Riggers to include for the maneuver element.

tl;dr- KO Battletome has a lot of moving parts and broad statements on individual units is misleading.

I get the notion that only Skywardens are a very niche pick, but the rest has ample place in the lineup.

That's a sign of a good battletome.

[5kaven5lave]

7 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Don’t let them get in your head.  Anyone who says Thunderers are too expensive to use and then flips the argument saying Ironclads ARE worth it isn’t being honest.

I’ll respond to this if I may as it’s clearly directed at my comment. Would just like to point out my disclaimer with the advice offered (and offered only, as friendly advice, with no compulsion to be followed) as a result of my experiences playing roughly once a week since the new book dropped. I also think that implying dishonestly is a bit too far as, as you have posted, there are many ways to use individual units and some are hard to quantify. So it’s subjective, friendly advice, just as I assume you are offering. That you disagree doesn’t mean I’m being dishonest or trying to influence people in an untoward way. Many thanks. 

[PensivePanther]

16 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

How does everyone feel about Gunhaulers, are they worth it? I will hopefully magnetize the gun but was curious if anyone used Drill Cannons on them, they seem less flexible than the standard cannon. Also what Endrinworks do you like best on haulers? Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments seems like a really useful one, but if I run two and have the space I'm not sure how the others stack up.

I'll caveat this opinion in that my KO collection is still small and I've only got to play some real low point games. That being said, I've taken Gunhaulers + Endrinriggers as opposed to my Frigate in a few games, but the Frigate always performed better. 

[DavionStar]

19 hours ago, Sttufe said:

My thoughts exactly, I love the sky wardens, they look so good and I feel like theyshould be better, a fast cavalry unit perfectly suits an aggressive tactic, so I will keep plugging away at charging my enemies high value targets (because charging a unit of 60 stabbas sucks when 15 fanatics jump out  ). Oh wait, I ave an idea, maybe I am not using enough wardens...

I understand that they need to be balanced cause they can fly, but it'd still be nice if the were a little sturdier, or a little cheaper so you could bring more.

And I do love Riggers too. They're like battle mechanics and that's awesome. It's just always felt odd to me that they're better in melee than a unit with actual weapons.

17 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

How does everyone feel about Gunhaulers, are they worth it? I will hopefully magnetize the gun but was curious if anyone used Drill Cannons on them, they seem less flexible than the standard cannon. Also what Endrinworks do you like best on haulers? Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments seems like a really useful one, but if I run two and have the space I'm not sure how the others stack up.

They're really good right now actually. Use them to cover bigger ships or have them go on sniping adventures. Compartments are the perfect size for a minimum Thunderer squad too. Give them a Rigger escort and you got a nice little, ranged murder ball.

Considering the drill has insane range, -3 rend and has a 1/3 chance (5+) to deal 3 mortal wounds on hit? It's hard to say no to. Though the shrapnel sky cannon might be better for big blobs of models.

[GlanceOnASix]

17 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

How does everyone feel about Gunhaulers, are they worth it? I will hopefully magnetize the gun but was curious if anyone used Drill Cannons on them, they seem less flexible than the standard cannon. Also what Endrinworks do you like best on haulers? Coalbeard's Collapsible Compartments seems like a really useful one, but if I run two and have the space I'm not sure how the others stack up.

Best unit in the book.  The objective stealing threat of it, and dragging my squads of riggers around for a value in points cost has been terrific.

I typically take the Cannon, as its just nice and reliable.  I also like the d6 mortal wound charge to pop off a wounded hero/unit (That followed with the d3 mortal bombs has killed a lot of exposed 5 wound heroes).

 

[Nightgaunt]

Thanks everyone. I was considering the Grundstok Escort Wing, and if I run Zilfin I'll have Endrinworks for all three boats. I don't know, still debating which skyport I like best and will probably give several a test run.

[zilberfrid]

38 minutes ago, Nightgaunt said:

Thanks everyone. I was considering the Grundstok Escort Wing, and if I run Zilfin I'll have Endrinworks for all three boats. I don't know, still debating which skyport I like best and will probably give several a test run.

The best option is, of course, to have enough of everything that you can switch on the go.

What models do you like the most? Build a list from those!

The Grundstok Escort wing is (in my mind) a good batallion because of the models involved.

I am particular interested in the Iron Sky batallions, but that means no Thunderers.

[Nightgaunt]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

The best option is, of course, to have enough of everything that you can switch on the go.

What models do you like the most? Build a list from those!

The Grundstok Escort wing is (in my mind) a good batallion because of the models involved.

I am particular interested in the Iron Sky batallions, but that means no Thunderers.

Thank you. Mostly I'd like to just run things I like, I just want to know what I'm jumping into. I know there's some debate about Ironclads and Thunderers, for example, but I love both and will try to use them regardless. I'm less concerned about having fewer drops than my opponent since there are so many single drop armies in my meta. Actually I've considered not even taking a battalion at all, but I do particularly like the bonuses of the Escort Wing and Iron Sky Command, as well as the bonus relics and Endrinworks.

[ArkanautDadmiral]

4 hours ago, DavionStar said:

I understand that they need to be balanced cause they can fly, but it'd still be nice if the were a little sturdier, or a little cheaper so you could bring more.

And I do love Riggers too. They're like battle mechanics and that's awesome. It's just always felt odd to me that they're better in melee than a unit with actual weapons.

They're really good right now actually. Use them to cover bigger ships or have them go on sniping adventures. Compartments are the perfect size for a minimum Thunderer squad too. Give them a Rigger escort and you got a nice little, ranged murder ball.

Considering the drill has insane range, -3 rend and has a 1/3 chance (5+) to deal 3 mortal wounds on hit? It's hard to say no to. Though the shrapnel sky cannon might be better for big blobs of models.

I’m in exactly the same boat as you and begrudgingly built my balloon boys as endrinriggers. It doesn’t make sense to me that engineers with tools have better warscroll than soldiers with weapons. Wardens in my mind should have the better range on their pistols. And the +1 hit on charge could arguably be a warscroll ability rather than tied to Zon. Even with those 2 buffs I expect most people would take the Riggers, but there’d be some thought about it first.

I’m sure they’ll get a little love at some point and I’ll be happy to buy more when it happens.

[Sttufe]

ok so i have come up with a list centered around the most dakka in a space as possible:

Barak Nar:

- Endrinmaster in Drigible,  Aethersped Hammer, Bearer of the Ironstar 220, 220

- Khemist, General - 90 - 310

- Thundrik and Co. - 260 - 570

- 15 Thunderers - 360 - 930

- 1 Ironclad - 510 - 1440

- 6 Skywardens - 200 - 1640

- 6 Endrinriggers - 200 - 1840

- 1 Gunhauler, Compartments - 150 - 1990

 

Idea is that you pack Thundrik into the gunhauler, have 6 riggers and Brokk sit outside the ironclad, have the other 6 wardens sit on the gunhauler. Finally pack in 15 thunderers into the ironclad with the khemist, once you deploy just drop them at 9.1" away with the show your steel, move 4", charge the rest, and hopefully combined with the khemist and all your thunderers having specials, you should get +2 to wound, +1 attack, +2 to hit, and then -1 on enemy hit rolls (maybe -2 if your lucky). This includes the buffs from the khemist and Thundrik, plus the charging zon buff, plus the 3" thunderer buff and the thunderer special buff. Then you have the sky wardens charge and the ironclad unleash it's shrapnel and you have quite a bit of shots going through the air. Technically your entire army would be in one spot, but hopefully anything with 24" of that spot should theoretically be dead.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sttufe

[Nightgaunt]

6 minutes ago, Sttufe said:

ok so i have come up with a list centered around the most dakka in a space as possible:

Barak Zon:

- Brokk Grungsson, General, Aethersped Hammer, Bearer of the Ironstar - 240 - 240

- Khemist - 90 - 310

- Thundrik and Co. - 260 - 570

- 15 Thunderers - 360 - 930

- 1 Ironclad - 510 - 1440

- 6 Skywardens - 200 - 1640

- 6 Endrinriggers - 200 - 1840

- 1 Gunhauler, Compartments - 150 - 1990

 

Idea is that you pack Thundrik into the gunhauler, have 6 riggers and Brokk sit outside the ironclad, have the other 6 wardens sit on the gunhauler. Finally pack in 15 thunderers into the ironclad with the khemist, once you deploy just drop them at 9.1" away with the show your steel, move 4", charge the rest, and hopefully combined with the khemist and all your thunderers having specials, you should get +2 to wound, +1 attack, +2 to hit, and then -1 on enemy hit rolls (maybe -2 if your lucky). This includes the buffs from the khemist and Thundrik, plus the charging zon buff, plus the 3" thunderer buff and the thunderer special buff. Then you have the sky wardens charge and the ironclad unleash it's shrapnel and you have quite a bit of shots going through the air. Technically your entire army would be in one spot, but hopefully anything with 24" of that spot should theoretically be dead.

 

How many fumigators are you putting in the Thunderers? I'm not sure how many it takes to cover a 15 man squad with their aura but I like the theme.