AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Areldion]

Hey guys, I just played my second game with KO and got absolutely wrecked by a Terrorgheist dealing 18 mortal wounds in one go to my Frigate. What can our army do against attacks like that? I know having a Gunhauler within 3 inches would help, so I'm gonna do that from now on. Also, any comments on my 1k and 2k lists would be much appreciated. Here's my 1k:

1x Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (General)

1x Arkanaut Frigate

2x 10 Arkanaut Company (1 garrisoned in Frigate)

2x 3 Endrinriggers

1x Grundstok Gunhauler

And my 2k:

1x Arkanaut Admiral (General)

1x Endrinmaster with Endrinharness

1x Arkanaut Frigate

1x Arkanaut Ironclad

2x 10 Arkanaut Company (garrisoned in each ship)

2x Grundstok Gunhauler

2x 6 Endrinriggers

1x Grundstok Thunderers (garrisoned in Ironclad)

Thoughts? My Skyport is Barak-Urbaz.

[Phasteon]

21 minutes ago, Areldion said:

Hey guys, I just played my second game with KO and got absolutely wrecked by a Terrorgheist dealing 18 mortal wounds in one go to my Frigate. What can our army do against attacks like that? I know having a Gunhauler within 3 inches would help, so I'm gonna do that from now on. Also, any comments on my 1k and 2k lists would be much appreciated. Here's my 1k:

1x Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (General)

1x Arkanaut Frigate

2x 10 Arkanaut Company (1 garrisoned in Frigate)

2x 3 Endrinriggers

1x Grundstok Gunhauler

And my 2k:

1x Arkanaut Admiral (General)

1x Endrinmaster with Endrinharness

1x Arkanaut Frigate

1x Arkanaut Ironclad

2x 10 Arkanaut Company (garrisoned in each ship)

2x Grundstok Gunhauler

2x 6 Endrinriggers

1x Grundstok Thunderers (garrisoned in Ironclad)

Thoughts? My Skyport is Barak-Urbaz.

What really helps is a Navigator as he can just halve the TGs movement, therefore making it useless. 

Other than that if he got multiple just focus the General if possible because he is the most dangerous and if he buffed a TG with the 5+ after-save-spell halve that TGs movement and avoid it at all cost while focussing another one down. 

I found FEC were quite easy to kite out. Not nobrain but absolutely doable with some experience. 

Edit: I wonder anyway how TGs can stand a chance against our shooting as they are basically 7 Liberators standing in mystical terrain but w/o getting cover. 

Thats not that impressive tbh but still those big monsters manage to survive longer than they should in my experience. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Phasteon

[Ser_namron]

15 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

azure is not a substitute for reading core rules. They don’t gain the KO keyword. So if your army is allegiance KO..all units in your army must have that keyword. If not they are allies. 

Amendment- Take help where you can get it 
1 in 4 units in your army can be a DUARDIN unit that does not have the KO keyword. Those units gain the BARAK-THRYNG keyword. They cannot be army general and do not count towards the number of battleline units in the army. 

Seems pretty clear to me that this is outside of allies rules. As long as it has a Duardin keyword, you can take them as 1 in 4 for a KO army, even without the KO keyword. 

 

[Phasteon]

40 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Amendment- Take help where you can get it 
1 in 4 units in your army can be a DUARDIN unit that does not have the KO keyword. Those units gain the BARAK-THRYNG keyword. They cannot be army general and do not count towards the number of battleline units in the army. 

Seems pretty clear to me that this is outside of allies rules. As long as it has a Duardin keyword, you can take them as 1 in 4 for a KO army, even without the KO keyword. 

 

Also its stated that battletome > core rules so they dont need to state that this rule overwrites the allegiance rules. 

I dont know why people always need to be so literal about everything, trying to squeeze the fun out of everything

[Ser_namron]

13 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

I dont know why people always need to be so literal about everything, trying to squeeze the fun out of everything

Well i think things like this do need to be discussed and looked at. GW is horrendous in so many ways, chief among them being rules writing and inconsistency in wording.  I dont think anyone is trying to squeeze the fun out of it, they just see it and want to point out that its inconsistent with other rules. Even more so if its something that is oppressive or powerful ( i dont think Barak thryng falls under that example though). 

But ya, i am going to play it as i have been for Barak Thyrng. 

[robotnik_taco]

Just a quick rules questions , in a Zilfin list, the there's always a breeze rule grants an additional normal move in the hero phase, and since on the boats, fly high replaces a normal move, can a Zilfin boat fly high using there's always a breeze?

[Boar]

7 hours ago, Phasteon said:

And yet this thread is called discussion and all my concerns are based on actual rules, not speculation. So why do you try to shut it down instead of being constructive about it? 

I want to brainstorm counter measures against that new army so myself and other players in this thread can profit and are aware of the potential danger of a coalesced army. 

Denying that the army will exist as a threat on a table does not help at all so please try to be helpful or don‘t answer at all. 

No hard feelings here mate, just my opinion on the matter. 🍻 

I have some thoughts on this (or rather on our units) I will try to write it down later today, well tried it yesterday but browser ate my work😡

 

I will just note few things quickly, which inform my and I assume @Phasteonconcerns. We are not panicking, it`s just  tough nut to crack.

8 hours ago, Kramer said:

every single army can do roughly that. If it’s not -1 damage, it’s a unit with an after save, save re-rolls, Splitting bodies or just massive numbers  and you can still win against them.  

Seraphon can do 6+ FNP bubble, skinks can have 4+ or even 3+ save thanks to spells or abilities, not to mention mystic shield. And they can have massive amount of bodies with skinks 10 models for 60pts.

So they can have all of things you mentioned in some manner, and in addition scaly skin ability, which btw affects all their units, unlike many of defensive buffs out there which are contingent on heroes or CP.

This is all without mentioning offensive synergies, which if you even look just on warscrolls (not touching battalions, allegiance abilites etc.) are aplenty. You dismiss Seraphon, army that can get more shooting damage from just 180 pts of skinks than we can from 250 pts frigate (and by more I mean twice as much)? And just to be clear those offensive buffs are not that concerning in on itself, however in conjuction with scaly skin that makes their heroes almost twice as hard to remove ie. those buffs to remove.

 

[PensivePanther]

7 minutes ago, robotnik_taco said:

Just a quick rules questions , in a Zilfin list, the there's always a breeze rule grants an additional normal move in the hero phase, and since on the boats, fly high replaces a normal move, can a Zilfin boat fly high using there's always a breeze?

You should be able to yes, in my opinion. I usually use this ability to squeeze a move in before disembarking troops.

[Hagbean]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zon

Leaders
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- General
Aether-Khemist (90)
Aetheric Navigator (100)
Aetheric Navigator (100)

Battleline
12 x Skywardens (400)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)

Units
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (120)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (120)
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)

Behemoths
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
Arkanaut Frigate (250)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105

Managed to pick up a large lot of KO, over the course of the next few weeks will be posting a few lists here in the hopes that they're critiqued, any responses are greatly appreciated.

General idea with this  list is a block of thunderers/navigator/endrinriggers in and around each frigate, with a roaming kill/support team of 12 skywardens the endrinmaster/khemist and the gunhauler. I went Zon and took the khemist to make the block of skywardens seem really spooky to the enemy.

Below is the full list of models i've picked up and would be open to any suggestions, currently in the process of trying to come up with a quad-frigate list of double-ironclad list, although reading through quite a few pages of this thread they don't seem to be very viable.

 

Spoiler

2 Navigator
1 Admiral
1 Aether Khemist
2 Endrinmasters
1 Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit

9 Endrinriggers
6 Skywardens
6 Unbuilt Skyriggers
15 Grundstok Thunderers

4 Frigates
2 Ironclad
3 Gunhauler

 

[Ser_namron]

9 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

4 Frigates
2 Ironclad
3 Gunhauler

now THATS a fleet lol. You're gonna be able to make some real fun lists! 

I think your first list has a nice amount of bodies, 2 unbinds, and some aerial/ ground support.I think its worth testing out for sure.  I personally would drop 1 of the navigators for a unit of 6 riggers. Personally im also not a fan of wardens, and i think theirs better sky ports.  Zilfin takes frigates as battleline, you could build something real fun with all yours. Also, i would invest in a battalion, we have 3 really solid choices that are pretty easy to build into.  Escort wing is my favorite. 

[Boar]

Ok let`s start with thinking about Seraphon Coalesced

What is this brouhaha over Seraphon you ask? Well one of their sub-allegiances is Seraphon of old teleport, some summoning etc. Other, gives all units damage reduction ability, any multi-damage attack will have it`s damage reduced by one (to mininmum of one). It`s this second ability that causes some concern.

You may already read or realised that frigate firing shrapnel is half as effective vs those guys. Also D3 attacks that are quite common in our army lose 1/3 of output. While 1/3 on average doesn`t sound horrible you have to realise that you were getting  1/2/3 damage and now spread is 1/1/2. In effect this makes those weapons unable to deal 3 damage, and this possibility is large part of appeal of those. In effect those weapons should be treated as 1 damage weapons with chance (1/3) of one additional damage dealt. As you can see my reader 1/3 loss doesn`t quite cover what happens with say aethermatic saw when facing Coalesced Seraphon.

 

So below few words on two units (more to come!) that either don`t suffer from this debuff or the effect is limited.

Arkanaut Company:

Against coalesced they take relatively low hit to their combat effectiveness, in shooting just one attack is affected, it`s worse in melee unfortunately where 2 pike attacks are affected for each 10 arkanauts. They melee performance was weak to begin with but sometimes pikeguy could roll hot, no option for pleasant surprise this time.

PLUS:

-largest amount of bodies per point for us (with 4+ save), also better damage when close to objectives

-gold share increases their potential somewhat

-you probably have to take some anyway

MINUS:

-loss of damage on pike

-slow (move 4, and large amount of bodies for air transport considerations)

-missile weapons mostly are addition to melee due to their low ranges

-rather low damage output per model

 

Thunderers with Rifles

No loss of damage potential on rifles. Can be supplanted with fumigator, also decksweeper even without bonus for all special weapons is still better than aetherrifle – though obviously with lower range.

PLUS:

-decent damage and range

-fumigator and additional attack when in melee increases their utility in close combat

MINUS:

-slow on foot

-you need to pay at least 240 pts to get gold share

 

Arkanauts + Thunderers

In some situations you could deploy arkanauts and behind them (more than 1” from front) thunderers with one or more fumigators. When attacked by 1” range enemy part of them would get debuff from fumigator partially protecting arkanauts, and by sticking Thunderers in melee gave them

[zilberfrid]

32 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Kharadron Overlords
- Sky Port: Barak Zon

Leaders
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- General
Aether-Khemist (90)
Aetheric Navigator (100)
Aetheric Navigator (100)

Battleline
12 x Skywardens (400)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)

Units
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (120)
5 x Grundstok Thunderers (120)
1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (150)

Behemoths
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
Arkanaut Frigate (250)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105

Managed to pick up a large lot of KO, over the course of the next few weeks will be posting a few lists here in the hopes that they're critiqued, any responses are greatly appreciated.

General idea with this  list is a block of thunderers/navigator/endrinriggers in and around each frigate, with a roaming kill/support team of 12 skywardens the endrinmaster/khemist and the gunhauler. I went Zon and took the khemist to make the block of skywardens seem really spooky to the enemy.

Below is the full list of models i've picked up and would be open to any suggestions, currently in the process of trying to come up with a quad-frigate list of double-ironclad list, although reading through quite a few pages of this thread they don't seem to be very viable.

  Reveal hidden contents

2 Navigator
1 Admiral
1 Aether Khemist
2 Endrinmasters
1 Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit

9 Endrinriggers
6 Skywardens
6 Unbuilt Skyriggers
15 Grundstok Thunderers

4 Frigates
2 Ironclad
3 Gunhauler

 

Make at least one of the frigates yellow, with an extra dwarf:

 

 

[Hagbean]

33 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

now THATS a fleet lol. You're gonna be able to make some real fun lists! 

I think your first list has a nice amount of bodies, 2 unbinds, and some aerial/ ground support.I think its worth testing out for sure.  I personally would drop 1 of the navigators for a unit of 6 riggers. Personally im also not a fan of wardens, and i think theirs better sky ports.  Zilfin takes frigates as battleline, you could build something real fun with all yours. Also, i would invest in a battalion, we have 3 really solid choices that are pretty easy to build into.  Escort wing is my favorite. 

Yeah i'm really eager to get some crazy fleet lists together as there's a good few ships in there!

Like you said I think it's worth testing, funnily enough your suggestion of removing one of the navs and making one of the riggers into a block of 6 is exactly how the list looked before I submitted - however my plan was to have the frigates supported equally, I don't really want one frigate to be "better" than the other once they're split.

Yeah with re: Skywardens i'm not entirely sold on them, riggers are "better" but I view them (potentially incorrectly) as 'support' units - and wanted something a bit more standalone.

I've already threw together a BUNCH of lists but none that i've felt this happy with. Will definitely be posting here in future before/after some matches for advice! Right so onto battalions, i've always felt that the majority of them across literally every single faction are (IN MOST CASES) point/unit traps, and only worth taking for the CP/artefact/drop count - and I feel this is even more true for KO. Every time i've tried to include one for KO, I take what's needed and am left with a the impossible task of trying to shoehorn in the units I actually WANT to use. I'm certainly going to test each one and i'm sure there'll be at least one that's worthwhile (except Ark company one, I don't have any..) but for now i'm not exactly sold!

 

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Make at least one of the frigates yellow, with an extra dwarf:

 

 

OMG this is a BRILLIANT army idea, coincidentally i'm a scouser as well.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Hagbean

[Sttufe]

15 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Make at least one of the frigates yellow, with an extra dwarf:

 

 

Yeah my friend has decided to employ a similar color scheme to his grots, specifically themed aroun vaporwave. I don't even know anymore.

 

54 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

4 Frigates
2 Ironclad
3 Gunhauler

To agree with @Ser_namron that'a a FLEET. I think wardens are pretty cool, and can deifinitely dish out some serious damage if you use them right (with the right skyport) but honestly the endrinriggers will give you better utility.

[sal4m4nd3r]

3 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

Amendment- Take help where you can get it 
1 in 4 units in your army can be a DUARDIN unit that does not have the KO keyword. Those units gain the BARAK-THRYNG keyword. They cannot be army general and do not count towards the number of battleline units in the army. 

Seems pretty clear to me that this is outside of allies rules. As long as it has a Duardin keyword, you can take them as 1 in 4 for a KO army, even without the KO keyword. 

 

They are allies because they don’t have the KO keyword in a KO army. Look you all can play however you want or house rule whatever you want that’s fine. No skin off my behind. But to say I’m squeezing fun out of something as @Phasteon said...I mean I’m just following the rules.

[Ser_namron]

6 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

I mean I’m just following the rules.

And i appreciate ya, i think pointing this out is a benefit to everyone. But i dont think this applies to the barak Thyrng. Your talking about allying in units, we're talking about a sky port that allows you to take 1/4 Duardin units. Their is no mention of allying in those Duardin in the sky port text, only that you can bring 1/4. IF they said it counted as allies i would  agree with you, but as it reads in the tome there is no mention of allies, so IMO i think your arguing apples and oranges. 

 

[Ser_namron]

20 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

I've already threw together a BUNCH of lists but none that i've felt this happy with. Will definitely be posting here in future before/after some matches for advice! Right so onto battalions, i've always felt that the majority of them across literally every single faction are (IN MOST CASES) point/unit traps, and only worth taking for the CP/artefact/drop count - and I feel this is even more true for KO. Every time i've tried to include one for KO, I take what's needed and am left with a the impossible task of trying to shoehorn in the units I actually WANT to use. I'm certainly going to test each one and i'm sure there'll be at least one that's worthwhile (except Ark company one, I don't have any..) but for now i'm not exactly sold!

List building in KO has been kinda frustrating ill admit. The point costs of units dont line up very well and im often left with 10-60 points on the table with nothing to use them on. But i think the battalions in this tome are really solid, nothing like a must take IE. Changehost. And honestly the CP/Artifact/ Endrinwork ( dont forget this, its huge) /lower drop is all pretty massive in our army. The artifacts we have are fantastic, as are the endrinworks. And being able to have a lower drop against your enemy can help ensure the chance at a double turn, which in KO is HUGE. The abiltiies they give are viable if you build around them, but i think the other benefits are where we profit. Plus escort wing is diiiiiirty, reroll 1s on the whole battalion against 1 unit a shooting phase, that can make the difference. 

[zilberfrid]

34 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

They are allies because they don’t have the KO keyword in a KO army. Look you all can play however you want or house rule whatever you want that’s fine. No skin off my behind. But to say I’m squeezing fun out of something as @Phasteon said...I mean I’m just following the rules.

And I think there's just a line missing that states they'll be KO as well. The language is too similar to Cities, and there is too much superfluous in it if they were merely allies. They would be affected by "Honour the Gods, just in case" and "Chronicle of Grudges", but that would be everything that was different from regular ally rules.

[Cauthon]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

They are allies because they don’t have the KO keyword in a KO army. Look you all can play however you want or house rule whatever you want that’s fine. No skin off my behind. But to say I’m squeezing fun out of something as @Phasteon said...I mean I’m just following the rules.

In this case isn’t your faction barak thyrng? They all have the same keyword, barak thyrng. 

 

So how are they allies if they share the same keyword?

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Cauthon

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Hagbean said:

OMG this is a BRILLIANT army idea, coincidentally i'm a scouser as well.

I was looking at Yellow Submarine models today to convert to a Frigate. Haven't found them, but there are nice 3d models, and I have a friend willing to print them.

[Sttufe]

26 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

And I think there's just a line missing that states they'll be KO as well. The language is too similar to Cities, and there is too much superfluous in it if they were merely allies. They would be affected by "Honour the Gods, just in case" and "Chronicle of Grudges", but that would be everything that was different from regular ally rules.

This is what I was trying to say earlier, and especially when you correlate it to the fluff, it makes sense that you should be able to take extra duardin, just it wasn't worded correctly.

[Sttufe]

6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I was looking at Yellow Submarine models today to convert to a Frigate. Haven't found them, but there are nice 3d models, and I have a friend willing to print them.

This had better be a thing and it has to happen. Please post pictures once this happens, this is gonna be great.

[Phasteon]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

List building in KO has been kinda frustrating ill admit. The point costs of units dont line up very well and im often left with 10-60 points on the table with nothing to use them on. But i think the battalions in this tome are really solid, nothing like a must take IE. Changehost. And honestly the CP/Artifact/ Endrinwork ( dont forget this, its huge) /lower drop is all pretty massive in our army. The artifacts we have are fantastic, as are the endrinworks. And being able to have a lower drop against your enemy can help ensure the chance at a double turn, which in KO is HUGE. The abiltiies they give are viable if you build around them, but i think the other benefits are where we profit. Plus escort wing is diiiiiirty, reroll 1s on the whole battalion against 1 unit a shooting phase, that can make the difference. 

Yeah I think everyone can relate. 

Often when building lists I go like: 

1. what do I want to play?

2. how can I create some synergies?

3. is there a battalion that combines everything?

4. 500-600p for stuff

KO is lacking the 500-600p for stuff without me being able to sufficiently have point 1. covered.. 

But I got a list thats really close and I havent lost so far. Seems to be pretty solid and thats actually what I was looking for - won‘t probably win any trophies though. 

 

Edit: silver lining though - GHB can buff KO so easily by reducing points. Our basic mechanics are strong!

Edited March 11, 2020 by Phasteon

[sal4m4nd3r]

34 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

In this case isn’t your faction barak thyrng? They all have the same keyword, barak thyrng. 

 

So how are they allies if they share the same keyword?

 

You are allegiant to Kharadron Overlords, with Barak thryng being your skyport (sub-faction). Barak thryng is not a faction. You can choose thryng when you are a KO allegiant. 

[Cauthon]

So how do you play as eldritch council then? You arnt grand alliance order because you can’t take anything that doesn’t have eldritch council keyword without it being an ally. 

 

Your faction is eldritch council in this instance, not grand alliance order  

 

barak thyrng can be your faction if the whole army shares the keyword, plus your allies allotment