AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[nine7six]

8 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Awesome to see someone trying out the Prime / Comet combo, any army with weedy little characters will really struggle against that. 

it's great! take second turn, pick target, drop comet, fly high and shoot, drop prime if needed. The 5 wound heroes that used to annoy me aren't a problem now!

[Ser_namron]

Barak thyrng is mad fun. Had a runefather on magmadroth take on a Deepkin turtle and solo him, a gunhauler loaded with 3 riggers and 5 thunderers take out a block of eels, and a warden king with a nice block of 30 hammerers going at it in the middle of the board with ArkCo providing support. 

I love the flavor and being  able to bring all kinds of dwarfs is the best. Highly recommend. 

[Nightgaunt]

I'm returning to AOS after a long absence and picking up Kharadron. I have the Aether War set and was curious how useful the repair ability on Endrinriggers is? I haven't picked a Skyport yet but I'd like to build around the Grundstok Escort Wing. I want to make my balloon guys shooty, I just can't decide if I want Wardens for the battalion and drop bonus or Riggers for the repair. Planning to go with an Ironclad.

[Ser_namron]

1 hour ago, Nightgaunt said:

I'm returning to AOS after a long absence and picking up Kharadron. I have the Aether War set and was curious how useful the repair ability on Endrinriggers is? I haven't picked a Skyport yet but I'd like to build around the Grundstok Escort Wing. I want to make my balloon guys shooty, I just can't decide if I want Wardens for the battalion and drop bonus or Riggers for the repair. Planning to go with an Ironclad.

The healing is solid, and is more of a bonus with how you end up running riggers ( units of 3-6 hitching onto sky vessels and screening them) .  Combod with the Endrinmaster command trait to reroll the repair rolls, you can get a solid 3-9 wounds healed every turn on a ship with 1".  And it happens in hero phase so they can still fly high after repairs. 

I prefer to run my riggers entirely with saws/rivet guns except taking a drilllauncher for 1 every 3. The other special weapons have a place if your tailoring a list to charge in ( skyhook) or if your planning on facing something that retreats alot ( grapplehook for things like Skaven that can retreat and charge) . Overall theirs alot of ways to build them and it depends on how you wanna play them. Personally i like the saws/ rivet guns because the rivet guns do work, and having a saw for when you get charged is much needed melee in our army. You'll find out after a few games that melee is a ****** show for KO, but the saws can get in reliable damage. 

I've been LOVING escort wing. I run 3 gunhaulers in Urbaz skyport for battleline. I dont think Wardens are worth it. The riggers have better melee damage i believe unless you run the port that buffs wardens on charge. riggers have better ranged weapons and the repair is a cherry on top. 

I'm still unsold on the ironclad personally. seems you really need to load it up with thunderers to make it worth its cost IMO.  I've had good luck using the frigate and having more points for other things. I've only played a few games with it though. 

[Nightgaunt]

Thank you. When you fly high or move do you keep the riggers in front of the boat to screen against charges and such? Also do you use Arkanauts or just the gunhaulers?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Nightgaunt

[Phasteon]

So, with all the reviews on the internet creating pretty much the whole picture rules/pointswise - how do we deal with the new seraphon? Especially coalesced and their absurd damage mitigation. 

 

I‘m not a huge fan of that whole „we are doomed“ stuff as its hyperbole most of the time, but things like +2 wounds on all Monsters AND reducing damage taken by 1 got me worried. I dont want to tailor my list but I already struggle to deal enough damage sometimes due to bad dice rolls. 

But when my main damage gets halved WITHOUT dice being rolled and seeing how cheap those monsters will be pointswise and how much damage they can do (Watched a Batrep yesterday) - I am officially worried as I know some Seraphon players. 

[zilberfrid]

15 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

So, with all the reviews on the internet creating pretty much the whole picture rules/pointswise - how do we deal with the new seraphon? Especially coalesced and their absurd damage mitigation. 

 

I‘m not a huge fan of that whole „we are doomed“ stuff as its hyperbole most of the time, but things like +2 wounds on all Monsters AND reducing damage taken by 1 got me worried. I dont want to tailor my list but I already struggle to deal enough damage sometimes due to bad dice rolls. 

But when my main damage gets halved WITHOUT dice being rolled and seeing how cheap those monsters will be pointswise and how much damage they can do (Watched a Batrep yesterday) - I am officially worried as I know some Seraphon players. 

Arkanauts and rifle-based Thunderers retain all their damage (2/3 for drill cannons though), and Gunhaulers do not lose that much.

D3 damage weapons still deal 2/3 of their damage, but the rifles on frigates and ironclads as well as shrapnel really suffer, by being halved. Balloon boys are unhappy with a 1/3 reduction in damage as well.

Volley guns have become more useful on Ironclads, and the great cannons slugs became better.

It's not all bad, but some lists will have to accont for them.

 

[Phasteon]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

Arkanauts and rifle-based Thunderers retain all their damage (2/3 for drill cannons though), and Gunhaulers do not lose that much.

D3 damage weapons still deal 2/3 of their damage, but the rifles on frigates and ironclads as well as shrapnel really suffer, by being halved. Balloon boys are unhappy with a 1/3 reduction in damage as well.

Volley guns have become more useful on Ironclads, and the great cannons slugs became better.

It's not all bad, but some lists will have to accont for them.

 

Its not all bad but we all know that our army has its greatest weakness in the damage department, so obviously further decreasing our effectiveness will hurt. 

Eg we all know that game where the opponent has a wound ignore (5+/6+) and rolls above average and we feel like we cant kill a thing. Now take the scaly skin as 1+ wound ignore for damage 2+ weapons. I think this ability will really blunt our output to a point where we cant clear objectives fast enough to win on points. 

 

Obviously coalesced have the utility disadvantage. No teleport and no summoning, but I wonder if thats enough of a downside or if its just a „counter“ to our army. 

[Phasteon]

Well obviously there are some things that are good against those monsters: 

- MWs in any form, Spell in a bottle could be a gamechanger if we pick the right spell, Bombs are gold

- Last Word could potentially deal 5 damage and bracket/finish a charging monster

- -1 to hit by Khemist and/or Fumigator as those monsters wont have many attacks so missing a bunch will hurt

- As mentioned Rifle Thunderers especially with their +1 A in CC will be very strong. 

But how many of those things can we realistically combine in one list without „list tailoring“ against one special army.

[Sttufe]

4 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Well obviously there are some things that are good against those monsters: 

- MWs in any form, Spell in a bottle could be a gamechanger if we pick the right spell, Bombs are gold

- Last Word could potentially deal 5 damage and bracket/finish a charging monster

- -1 to hit by Khemist and/or Fumigator as those monsters wont have many attacks so missing a bunch will hurt

- As mentioned Rifle Thunderers especially with their +1 A in CC will be very strong. 

But how many of those things can we realistically combine in one list without „list tailoring“ against one special army.

And that's gonna be the problem. Your gonna have to build to fight with a normal all-rounder, OR build to fight the seraphon, cuz that -1 damage is gonna suck. Although your arkanauts will be slightly more effective because of that one ability allowing them to hit monsters/heroes better old rules sorry, now they're are no redeeming qualities. This isn't not gonna be fun for all-purpose armies.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Sttufe
old rules

[Phasteon]

27 minutes ago, Sttufe said:

And that's gonna be the problem. Your gonna have to build to fight with a normal all-rounder, OR build to fight the seraphon, cuz that -1 damage is gonna suck. Although your arkanauts will be slightly more effective because of that one ability allowing them to hit monsters/heroes better. Still though, it's not gonna be fun for all-purpose armies.

They changed gloryseeker though. 

(I think they buffed it)

[DavionStar]

Sat down and got my Admiral finished up!

[Ser_namron]

22 hours ago, Nightgaunt said:

Thank you. When you fly high or move do you keep the riggers in front of the boat to screen against charges and such? Also do you use Arkanauts or just the gunhaulers?

i tend to throw them in front to screen. They cant survive a charge usually, but it saves your ships, and if any are left they can still hitch a ride out of combat. Plus if you have saws, your opponent might think twice about charging in.  I usually drop 12" out with the gunhauler ( for the carbines) and then set the riggers up in front 10-11" away. then they can still unload rivet guns as well. Also, if you bring the ironclad and "the last word" endrinwork, you get to unload your main gun when a unit finishes a charge within 3" so your screen of riggers should be within 3" so that can trigger. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

On 3/9/2020 at 2:31 PM, Ser_namron said:

Barak thyrng is mad fun. Had a runefather on magmadroth take on a Deepkin turtle and solo him, a gunhauler loaded with 3 riggers and 5 thunderers take out a block of eels, and a warden king with a nice block of 30 hammerers going at it in the middle of the board with ArkCo providing support. 

I love the flavor and being  able to bring all kinds of dwarfs is the best. Highly recommend. 

Just keep in mind that because the duardin units don’t gain the KO keyword only 400 points of units can be taken..as they are allies. So the real limit isn’t 1:4 it’s normal allies rules.

[Phasteon]

46 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Just keep in mind that because the duardin units don’t gain the KO keyword only 400 points of units can be taken..as they are allies. So the real limit isn’t 1:4 it’s normal allies rules.

Thats not correct. It says „can be a Duardin unit thats not a Kharadron Overlords unit.“ 

So you are clearly allowed to break the usual „allegiance“-rule in this case. 

[DavionStar]

15 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Thats not correct. It says „can be a Duardin unit thats not a Kharadron Overlords unit.“ 

So you are clearly allowed to break the usual „allegiance“-rule in this case. 

This is correct. If you're running Barak-Thryng, you can include Duardin units without having to count them as allies, and while they don't get the KO keyword, they do get the Barak-Thryng keyword. I can bring a 10 model unit of Hearthguard Berzerkers in a 1000 pt Thryng list even though that breaks the 200pt ally limit, cause they're not allies. You CAN still bring extra Duardin units as allies though to 'cheat' the 1:4 rule, they just won't get the Thryng keyword and will count towards ally costs.

I've confirmed this on the Azyr list builder. (Though BattleScribe hasn't been updated for this yet)

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Well obviously there are some things that are good against those monsters: 

- MWs in any form, Spell in a bottle could be a gamechanger if we pick the right spell, Bombs are gold

- Last Word could potentially deal 5 damage and bracket/finish a charging monster

- -1 to hit by Khemist and/or Fumigator as those monsters wont have many attacks so missing a bunch will hurt

- As mentioned Rifle Thunderers especially with their +1 A in CC will be very strong. 

But how many of those things can we realistically combine in one list without „list tailoring“ against one special army.

I wouldn’t worry to much about it. They either have the extra damage and resistance you’re worried about.  But become horrendously slow. Or they are fast but fragile. List Tailoring will be hard anyway due to that switch.  
I think in an all comers list you can beat them on either objectives or just shoot them off the board. Depending on their choice. 

besides all that speculation, because that’s what’s this whole conversation is, usually turns out useless. Play the first few games, see what you run into and then the community can look for solutions of needed. But from what the (probably the same) batreps and readings show I’m not worried. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

53 minutes ago, DavionStar said:

This is correct. If you're running Barak-Thryng, you can include Duardin units without having to count them as allies, and while they don't get the KO keyword, they do get the Barak-Thryng keyword. I can bring a 10 model unit of Hearthguard Berzerkers in a 1000 pt Thryng list even though that breaks the 200pt ally limit, cause they're not allies. You CAN still bring extra Duardin units as allies though to 'cheat' the 1:4 rule, they just won't get the Thryng keyword and will count towards ally costs.

I've confirmed this on the Azyr list builder. (Though BattleScribe hasn't been updated for this yet)

azure is not a substitute for reading core rules. They don’t gain the KO keyword. So if your army is allegiance KO..all units in your army must have that keyword. If not they are allies. 

[zilberfrid]

8 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

azure is not a substitute for reading core rules. They don’t gain the KO keyword. So if your army is allegiance KO..all units in your army must have that keyword. If not they are allies. 

They gain Barak Thryng. That should do. Specific over generic.

If not, some major FAQ concerning this, Tempest's Eye and Living City is long overdue.

[sal4m4nd3r]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

They gain Barak Thryng. That should do. Specific over generic.

If not, some major FAQ concerning this, Tempest's Eye and Living City is long overdue.

In the CoS book...the sylvaneth/KO/stormcast gain the CoS keyword AND the keyword of the city. This book is just written very poorly. 

[Sttufe]

57 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

azure is not a substitute for reading core rules. They don’t gain the KO keyword. So if your army is allegiance KO..all units in your army must have that keyword. If not they are allies. 

hold on a minute, if so, whats the point of this sky port? I mean sure you get the bonuses from being stubborn, but that's it. This essentially renders the entire point of the Barak useless. Honestly this should definitely be on an FAQ.

[sal4m4nd3r]

2 hours ago, Sttufe said:

hold on a minute, if so, whats the point of this sky port? I mean sure you get the bonuses from being stubborn, but that's it. This essentially renders the entire point of the Barak useless. Honestly this should definitely be on an FAQ.

The point is the booked was rushed. It’s clear when you look across the book and find multiple aggregious examples of sloppy rules writing. I thought the FAQ/errata would fix a lot of these but it is what it is.

Take a close look at the command ability for the dirigible suit endrinmaster and the endrinriggers repair ability. The endrinriggers repairs happens at THE START OF THE HERO PHASE, yet the dirigible suit endrinmasters command ability to allow them to re-roll the repair rolls can’t be used until the middle sub phase of the hero phase (IN THE HERO PHASE). So he can’t even use his command ability on them. 

[Phasteon]

7 hours ago, Kramer said:

I wouldn’t worry to much about it. They either have the extra damage and resistance you’re worried about.  But become horrendously slow. Or they are fast but fragile. List Tailoring will be hard anyway due to that switch.  
I think in an all comers list you can beat them on either objectives or just shoot them off the board. Depending on their choice. 

besides all that speculation, because that’s what’s this whole conversation is, usually turns out useless. Play the first few games, see what you run into and then the community can look for solutions of needed. But from what the (probably the same) batreps and readings show I’m not worried. 

Assuming Saurus  have base move 4“ you can still get them 11“ forward t1 for 1 CP (which Seraphon will get enough of) with +1 run constellation.

At this point 40 wounds with 4+ Save ignoring 1 damage are standing on the main objective. How are you going to shift them? 

Thats not speculation lol, thats 100% what I‘d do as a Seraphon player.

My big monsters are standing ready behind to countercharge ofc because they easily get 15-16“ forwards with runs. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Phasteon

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, Sttufe said:

hold on a minute, if so, whats the point of this sky port? I mean sure you get the bonuses from being stubborn, but that's it. This essentially renders the entire point of the Barak useless. Honestly this should definitely be on an FAQ.

What’s the point of ziflin without the extra move? What’s a pb&j sandwich without the peanut butter?

point being. That if you discard the stubborn rule, which is a weird way to make an argument, the whole list building aspect remains the point. Not getting the KO keyword still leaves you with a nice jelly sandwich. Honestly I don’t think you’ll ever get that faq’ed because it seems to me to be the intent. 

6 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Assuming Saurus Guard have base move 4“ you can still get them 11“ forward t1 for 1 CP (which Seraphon will get enough of)

At this point 40 wounds with 4+ Save ignoring 1 damage are standing on the main objective. How are you going to shift them? 

Thats not speculation lol, thats 100% what I‘d do.

every single army can do roughly that. If it’s not -1 damage, it’s a unit with an after save, save re-rolls, Splitting bodies or just massive numbers  and you can still win against them.  
And I’ll bet you that Seraphon won’t be close to the toughest thing to remove from an objective. 
And unless that saurus guard unit gets some movement support that’s not fast enough to cover your shooting range. 

sure it might be a bit of an anti elite army and might warp your local meta, for lack of a better word, but until you know what the most common Seraphon lists are its speculation. And I don’t believe they will be a big deal regarding competitive play from what I’ve seen so far. 

[Phasteon]

33 minutes ago, Kramer said:

What’s the point of ziflin without the extra move? What’s a pb&j sandwich without the peanut butter?

point being. That if you discard the stubborn rule, which is a weird way to make an argument, the whole list building aspect remains the point. Not getting the KO keyword still leaves you with a nice jelly sandwich. Honestly I don’t think you’ll ever get that faq’ed because it seems to me to be the intent. 

every single army can do roughly that. If it’s not -1 damage, it’s a unit with an after save, save re-rolls, Splitting bodies or just massive numbers  and you can still win against them.  
And I’ll bet you that Seraphon won’t be close to the toughest thing to remove from an objective. 
And unless that saurus guard unit gets some movement support that’s not fast enough to cover your shooting range. 

sure it might be a bit of an anti elite army and might warp your local meta, for lack of a better word, but until you know what the most common Seraphon lists are its speculation. And I don’t believe they will be a big deal regarding competitive play from what I’ve seen so far. 

And yet this thread is called discussion and all my concerns are based on actual rules, not speculation. So why do you try to shut it down instead of being constructive about it? 

I want to brainstorm counter measures against that new army so myself and other players in this thread can profit and are aware of the potential danger of a coalesced army. 

Denying that the army will exist as a threat on a table does not help at all so please try to be helpful or don‘t answer at all. 

No hard feelings here mate, just my opinion on the matter. 🍻