AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[PensivePanther]

36 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

What’s the reasoning behind 2 units of thhnderers in the iron clad instead of 1 large one? 

I would consider doing that so I had flexibility to drop units on objectives mid game.

After my two games as an admiral I have totally re-evaluated the worth of the iron sky attack squadron battalion. Flexibility to disembark and embark when I please is an interesting tool.

[zilberfrid]

So, if I compare Frigates vs Ironclads on a per point basis:

2 Frigates

Transport more marines.

Can handle more damage when save not buffed by aether gold.

Deal more bomb damage.

Are faster.

Are more resistant to single target debuffs.

Give more flexibility.

Can transport more Edrinriggers.

10 pts cheaper

 

1 Ironclad

Deals more gun damage.

Tanks more damage when buffed by aether gold.

Takes single target buffs better.

Gives lower drops (both for itself and the marines, moot with batallions).

Cheaper in €.

 

Is this a fair comparison?

[Ser_namron]

Barak Thyrng list 2- Duardin boogaloo

Baloondrinmaster-  220pts
Trait-Supremely stubborn
Artifact- Grudgehammer

Aetheric navigator- 100 pts

Runesmiter -120pts

battleline- 
Arknaught company (10) x 3- skyhook/volleygun/drill on each unit of 10 - 270 pts
 Endrinriggers (6) x2 - Full saws/rivet guns besides 1 skyhook each -400 pts

Other- 
20 HGB- Poleaxes- Karl- 400 pts

Gunhauler- 150 pts
Drill cannon
Collapsible compartment

Gunhauler-  150 pts
Drill cannon

Gyrocopter- 70 pts
Steam gun

Thunderers (5) - 120 pts
1 Sarge/fumigator/mortar/volleygun/drill

2000/2000

General is a wanna be prime, dropping in with a gunhauler 9" away from enemies. On a grudged unit he will have 3 atks 2rr1/2/-2/d3 with an additional D3 on 6s to a grudged target, and if you reallllly wanna go all in, the once per battle 6s = 2 hits. Also has a full attacks on a 2+ when slain.  Super swingy, definitely a bad idea, but hot damn kamikaze baloons never looked so good lol.  Sure you gotta roll a 9 to charge....but thats ok i guess lol. 

Riggers also ready for the charge, +1 from skyhook - Oh ya, we gonna die today boyz, but on a 4+ we get to fight /flex

leave the companies to advance onto objectives,, or even better, get behind our HGB for some ranged goodness. 

HGB and runesmiter can drop 9" away from the frontline or if you can sneak em into the back even better. Just a good ol fashioned tar pit with a 5+/4+ RR wounds thanks to runesmiter. 

3 enemy units get grudged so we'll have rr1s to hit on the real trouble units, or maybe the front chaff so we can blow right through it. 

very high drop army kinda goes against t he whole alpha strike feel of it, but besides the ArkCo you can leave everything in the backline / tunnels and pop up anywhere outside of 9" . 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ser_namron
added info

[PensivePanther]

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

So, if I compare Frigates vs Ironclads on a per point basis:

2 Frigates

Transport more marines.

Can handle more damage when save not buffed by aether gold.

Deal more bomb damage.

Are faster.

Are more resistant to single target debuffs.

Give more flexibility.

Can transport more Edrinriggers.

10 pts cheaper

 

1 Ironclad

Deals more gun damage.

Tanks more damage when buffed by aether gold.

Takes single target buffs better.

Gives lower drops (both for itself and the marines, moot with batallions).

Cheaper in €.

 

Is this a fair comparison?

I think you're pretty spot on. The biggest advantage of the ironclad is stuffing more firepower into the package. Also the glory of bringing the biggest ship we have to bear.

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I don’t think you need the skyhook for the charge bonus, I think you need to take the special weapons to maximize our shooting. If you are a melee unit then the skyhook and grapnel have more value than the drill cannons. 

Even if you have nothing but combat riggers, I don’t think you want to go charging into combats. 

We are an elite army that is pretty squishy which is a bad combo imo. 

Riggers have good damage potential but they can’t survive combat with ANYTHING that WANTS to be in combat. 

So I think having the special weapons are a must to give you something worthwhile to do while you wait for your chance to jump into a winnable combat later on the game after your shooting has weakened the enemy.

If you want to get in combat with a melee something I would get close to it, shoot it in the face and then stand there and let them charge you, one less combat phase for you to lose dudes in and maybe you get the double turn to shoot him in the face again. 

I think its very telling that our “command options” are tied into our guns. Speaks to what the army is about (guns)

I don't get your response. Help me understand. 

You say: 'I think you take the skyhook and grapnel even if you want to be combat orientated. '

My argument is: TLDR if you want a combat orientated unit I wouldn't dilute their combat potential by bringing the special guns. With units of 6+ then maybe because you will start to struggle to get everything in. imo

And you follow that up with that you feel you should take the special weapons to maximise shooting. Basically your argument is don't focus on combat but take a shooting outfit?
 Which is a whole different conversation. Which is good to have though but let's separate those two. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Kramer

[Ser_namron]

28 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Is this a fair comparison?

i think ironclads got better endrinworks for sure too.  And their the only boat that can actually fit heroes and units.
But , ya that covers most points id say.

[Ser_namron]

8 minutes ago, Kramer said:

My argument is: TLDR if you want a combat orientated unit I wouldn't dilute their combat potential by bringing the special guns. With units of 6+ then maybe because you will start to struggle to get everything in. imo

I agree, i think taking the special weapons if your actively trying to get them into combat is a mistake, except 1 skyhook for the +1 charge. gunbutts are straight up useless, so when the special weapons unit gets in combat, you have 2 saws in the mix, and thats pretty much your combat potential. Plus the rivet guns are a solid ranged weapon for shooting the unit your about to charge or be charged by. 

[Kramer]

Interested in everybody's input. I'm arguing for including 6 endrinriggers all with saws as a combat unit.  Let me know your thoughts. 

I agree that the army is about ranged and movement. But it's a toolbox game, and a unit with 7 3+ 2+ -2 D3 with re-rolls is a combat tool. See the damage vs 4+ save below.  Some arguments for having a combat unit:

- It's all well and good to shoot a unit of an objective but until you get some models on it you're not scoring. Having a combat unit allows you to claim it while taking the opponent off. With the scenario's that you score depending on how long you're holding them it's especially important. 

- With the addition of Tzeentch & Ko more players will go for minuses against shooting. It's good to have that option. Not to mention basic Look out Sir.

- A charge (with fly) is an extra move. Even if you just retreat the next (double) turn it helps you further up the field. 

- A charge means getting within the 3" zone which is often the difference between in range of an objective or not. 

Damage by 6 riggers, all with saws vs 4+ save. It's only 200 points for having this tool, on top of it are the abilities, mobility and shooting.

Without the re-roll:

 

With the re-roll (against 5+/6+ its between 11 and 18 in the green):

[Phasteon]

4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Interested in everybody's input. I'm arguing for including 6 endrinriggers all with saws as a combat unit.  Let me know your thoughts. 

I agree that the army is about ranged and movement. But it's a toolbox game, and a unit with 7 3+ 2+ -2 D3 with re-rolls is a combat tool. See the damage vs 4+ save below.  Some arguments for having a combat unit:

- It's all well and good to shoot a unit of an objective but until you get some models on it you're not scoring. Having a combat unit allows you to claim it while taking the opponent off. With the scenario's that you score depending on how long you're holding them it's especially important. 

- With the addition of Tzeentch & Ko more players will go for minuses against shooting. It's good to have that option. Not to mention basic Look out Sir.

- A charge (with fly) is an extra move. Even if you just retreat the next (double) turn it helps you further up the field. 

- A charge means getting within the 3" zone which is often the difference between in range of an objective or not. 

Damage by 6 riggers, all with saws vs 4+ save. It's only 200 points for having this tool, on top of it are the abilities, mobility and shooting.

Without the re-roll:

 

With the re-roll (against 5+/6+ its between 11 and 18 in the green):

I can back the close combat argument up by actual playtesting. 

I had Volleyguns and Grapnel/Hook in my 6man Riggers unit the first 5 games and they never did decisive damage. It was very random at best, main reason why they were MVP was healing/movement/emergency tarpit/screen of annoying leftover units. 

 

Then I tested the same 6 guys with saws and they did almost the same ranged output (which is not much) but with less range, BUT in close combat they did – actually nothing but thats because my opponent passed all his 5+ saves. Otherwise I would have killed his last Varanguard model easily. 

So I definately like the saws more. He was even thinking which to activate first because he knew that his Varanguard would have died with normal rolls. 

I calculated their shooting dmg, it was really between 0,6 to 0,9 dmg per weapon, with the only difference being range/rend and potential MWs. As I‘m a „take all comers“ kind of guy I want THE list thats flexible enough to face every enemy, and while their main purpose will always be healing I think saws are the best option, just from a versatility pov. I even used them as assassins once, THAT was fun. 

 

Hope it helps. 

[Cauthon]

11 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

I agree, i think taking the special weapons if your actively trying to get them into combat is a mistake, except 1 skyhook for the +1 charge. gunbutts are straight up useless, so when the special weapons unit gets in combat, you have 2 saws in the mix, and thats pretty much your combat potential. Plus the rivet guns are a solid ranged weapon for shooting the unit your about to charge or be charged by. 

Well I don’t think you are going to jump foreword and charge in t1. Even if you did that’s 1 shooting phase. I think it’s much more likely that you will get 2 shooting phases in before a charge. 

 T1, sit back and shoot, t2 move shoot charge. 

I think having the drill cannons (or hook and grapnel) on your melee unit makes sense because now you are getting value out of that unit even if they are not in combat. If they are in combat, let’s be honest, they will be dying quick. 

Yeah the gun butts are useless in combat but you still get to shoot at who you are in combat with your special weapon before the gun butt swings. (If you survive a round)

So I don’t think you really lose any damage output by not having max chaincutlasses. 

I don’t think it’s a very tactical decision to take 6 riggers and play them like a missile. We are to glass cannon-y to be trading unit for unit. 

Ko are ALL about tactical decisions and I don’t think playing smash hammer is one of them. 

I think taking our two (free) good shooting weapons opens up so much flexibility that it’s well worth trading in 2 saw attacks, those two saws might not get to swing but those cannons will get to shoot.

 

I applaud your mathmatics. If you would like to see my point, pls calculate 2 rounds of shooting with grapnel and skyhook and one round of shooting with rivet guns and add the melee from 5 saw attacks and 2 gunbutts vs; 1 round of 6 rivet guns plus 7 saw attacks. I’m curious to see how many turns of long range shooting would make up for the two missing saw attacks. 

 

What if you get in a matchup where charging into combat is NOT the answer? 

With 2 drill cannons, you are still pretty good in combat and pretty good at shooting. 

Without special weapons you arnt “that” much better in combat but you are much much worse from range. If you arnt in combat you arnt doing “anything” (offensively) without your guns  

 

So yeah I think even if you are excited about chain cutlass-ing some fools, younprobably want the special weapons for the flexibility, plus the combat bonuses for having skyhook and grapnel!

 

cheers

[Cauthon]

Just talking drill cannons, grapnel/ skyhooks here. Volley guns are garbage unless you know ours sitting way back healing and shooting. 

[novembermike]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

Barak Thyrng list 2- Duardin boogaloo

Baloondrinmaster-  220pts
Trait-Supremely stubborn
Artifact- Grudgehammer

Aetheric navigator- 100 pts

Runesmiter -120pts

battleline- 
Arknaught company (10) x 3- skyhook/volleygun/drill on each unit of 10 - 270 pts
 Endrinriggers (6) x2 - Full saws/rivet guns besides 1 skyhook each -400 pts

Other- 
20 HGB- Poleaxes- Karl- 400 pts

Gunhauler- 150 pts
Drill cannon
Collapsible compartment

Gunhauler-  150 pts
Drill cannon

Gyrocopter- 70 pts
Steam gun

Thunderers (5) - 120 pts
1 Sarge/fumigator/mortar/volleygun/drill

2000/2000

General is a wanna be prime, dropping in with a gunhauler 9" away from enemies. On a grudged unit he will have 3 atks 2rr1/2/-2/d3 with an additional D3 on 6s to a grudged target, and if you reallllly wanna go all in, the once per battle 6s = 2 hits. Also has a full attacks on a 2+ when slain.  Super swingy, definitely a bad idea, but hot damn kamikaze baloons never looked so good lol.  Sure you gotta roll a 9 to charge....but thats ok i guess lol. 

Riggers also ready for the charge, +1 from skyhook - Oh ya, we gonna die today boyz, but on a 4+ we get to fight /flex

leave the companies to advance onto objectives,, or even better, get behind our HGB for some ranged goodness. 

HGB and runesmiter can drop 9" away from the frontline or if you can sneak em into the back even better. Just a good ol fashioned tar pit with a 5+/4+ RR wounds thanks to runesmiter. 

3 enemy units get grudged so we'll have rr1s to hit on the real trouble units, or maybe the front chaff so we can blow right through it. 

very high drop army kinda goes against t he whole alpha strike feel of it, but besides the ArkCo you can leave everything in the backline / tunnels and pop up anywhere outside of 9" . 

 

This looks pretty good. I'm a little mixed on HGB vs Vulkite Berserkers since you'd only be taking a single relatively squishy Fyreslayers Hero but the core idea seems good. I think you'd kind of want a single Frigate to help sneak an Arkanaut squad onto an objective, but nothing looks wrong here.

[5kaven5lave]

I’m gonna end up having to buy loads more Endrinriggers aren’t I?

[Ser_namron]

6 minutes ago, novembermike said:

This looks pretty good. I'm a little mixed on HGB vs Vulkite Berserkers since you'd only be taking a single relatively squishy Fyreslayers Hero but the core idea seems good. I think you'd kind of want a single Frigate to help sneak an Arkanaut squad onto an objective, but nothing looks wrong here.

Its pretty easy to wrap the runesmiter in the HGB so shooting is the only real threat there. Im also kinda hoping playing aggresive with the rest of the army makes them focus other things. But valid point for sure. Also, vulkites have no real punch, i was looking for a survivable unit in combat, but i also wanted a killy one, and i think HGB fit that role better. 

frigate was originally in the list but it didnt really do much for me and was a huge chunk of points. I traded it out for 2 more arkco of 10 and a gyrocopter.  The lack of bodies has been the biggest problem in my games. I think its worth losing the ability to grab an objective turn 1 to be able to grab 2-3 objectives by turn 2. The plan is to hopefully force them to deal with the frontlines dropping in keeping them in their own territory so my Arkco can push up and stay on objectives. 

[Ser_namron]

7 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I’m gonna end up having to buy loads more Endrinriggers aren’t I?

I think 12 is the sweet spot for list building. 2 units of 6 to hitch around. Anything more than that seems like a novelty list with a specific purpose in mind ( not that that cant be viable ) 

[Cauthon]

Just talking drill cannons, grapnel/ skyhooks here. Volley guns are garbage unless you know ours sitting way back healing and shooting. 

[5kaven5lave]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

Barak Thyrng list 2- Duardin boogaloo

Best list name ever. 

[novembermike]

14 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Its pretty easy to wrap the runesmiter in the HGB so shooting is the only real threat there. Im also kinda hoping playing aggresive with the rest of the army makes them focus other things. But valid point for sure. Also, vulkites have no real punch, i was looking for a survivable unit in combat, but i also wanted a killy one, and i think HGB fit that role better. 

frigate was originally in the list but it didnt really do much for me and was a huge chunk of points. I traded it out for 2 more arkco of 10 and a gyrocopter.  The lack of bodies has been the biggest problem in my games. I think its worth losing the ability to grab an objective turn 1 to be able to grab 2-3 objectives by turn 2. The plan is to hopefully force them to deal with the frontlines dropping in keeping them in their own territory so my Arkco can push up and stay on objectives. 

Yeah, that's very reasonable. I think the Vulkite vs HGB question is basically about whether you can defend the Runesmiter, which will mostly be matchup dependent. 

That's also a reasonable point about needing bodies. In a pinch the Thunderers can take and hold a backline objective from the gunhauler, which is probably enough.

[5kaven5lave]

So the Attack Squadron with the ArCo buff is nice but how would you use it? If you have 2x10 ArCo and 2 Frigates that’s your movement sorted but if you wanna screen those frigates turn 1 that’s 2x10 ArCo again and then if you have another sitting unit like Thunderers you’ll probably want to screen them as well. Then you’re on 450 points of ArCo before you even start. Am I missing something or is that it? 

[Kramer]

39 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

So the Attack Squadron with the ArCo buff is nice but how would you use it? If you have 2x10 ArCo and 2 Frigates that’s your movement sorted but if you wanna screen those frigates turn 1 that’s 2x10 ArCo again and then if you have another sitting unit like Thunderers you’ll probably want to screen them as well. Then you’re on 450 points of ArCo before you even start. Am I missing something or is that it? 

I feel like it’s a bit of the same with the hunter with cats in Ogors. 
They offer options. Depending on the match-up, terrain en mission you make your choice. 
with the ogors example you can set up hunter and cats off the table for the ambush. You can also set up the cats as a screen if you play an alpha strike lists but the hunter still in ambush you o claim an objective. Or simply everything on the table to have that extra command ability point and the screen. 
 

so in your example you can choose to just set up the arkanauts as a screen and the thunderers in the frigate. That way you don’t need one unit of arkanauts more if you face a fast army. It you face a slower army you can set the arkanauts in the frigate and move them forwards with the thunderers in support. 
that's my take anyway. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Kramer

[5kaven5lave]

@Kramer That’s how I was playing it the other weekend, thanks for the advice man. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything. 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, PensivePanther said:

I think you're pretty spot on. The biggest advantage of the ironclad is stuffing more firepower into the package. Also the glory of bringing the biggest ship we have to bear.

 

2 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

i think ironclads got better endrinworks for sure too.  And their the only boat that can actually fit heroes and units.
But , ya that covers most points id say.

Thanks. I don't have the book, and I must think about my TE as well. I plan to fix up the Idoneth endless spell, and chain endless spells (purple sun, grashnak's jaws etc that are captured, bound into place and power the ship as well as make it fly) instead of the balloons and put lots of empire artillery on it. I'll measure whether I can sell it as frigate or ironclad when I have made some progress.

[ierthling]

Hey guys - new to KO, and as I’m putting my guys together I’m trying to settle on a first 1k list to build, using the miniatures I have: an Aether Wars KO half, and the Skyfleet Battleforce box. The core I’m working with is Admiral, flying Endrinmaster, 9 Endrinriggers (maybe too many, I know, but I love these guys and they’re what I have), but I can round out the 1000 points with either a Frigate and 10 Arkanauts (1000 pts exactly) or 2 Gunhaulers. 

In a small game, I like the idea of two boats as giving me a lot of mobility options, and the Gunhaulers seem like good bang for buck; with the compartments endrinworks on one there’s a spot for the Admiral to do his thing, and the rest of the guys can float along with the boats.

That said, Frigate + Admiral + Garrison of Arkanauts seems like a strong combo, and it gives me more boots on the ground in terms of objective claiming.

I’d love any suggestions from you guys! I’ll be buying my way towards Thunderers, more Arkanauts, an Ironclad etc someday, but for now I’m looking for options with what I’ve got. Thanks!

[jake3991]

7 hours ago, Cauthon said:

What’s the reasoning behind 2 units of thhnderers in the iron clad instead of 1 large one? 

Max out aether gold and that way theres 3 blocks of thunderers and you only have to commit 10 at a time to a target!

 

 

[Kramer]

8 minutes ago, jake3991 said:

Max out aether gold and that way theres 3 blocks of thunderers and you only have to commit 10 at a time to a target!

 

 

Sounds like you thought about so fair play to you if it works. But to play devils advocate: I can still split up shots in a big unit and that way I can re-roll for all of them in the do or die shooting fase.