AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[snaga]

1 hour ago, Cauthon said:

You are correct.

It turns into a question of do you want the volley guns for range or would you rather have the chain cutlasses.

If you have volley guns the grapnel and skyhook lose a little shine imo.

Are you wanting to be in combat or do you not want to be in combat? 

 

Thanks. I am looking to run 2 groups of 6. 1 with chain saws and 1 shoot with 2 Volley gun and 2 drill. What do you think

[Bone Shrapnel]

Cool, I'm giving those Hearthguard & Runesmiter a serious look.

[5kaven5lave]

@Cauthon re: your list, from what I’ve seen to date 6 shooting Riggers don’t actually do that much, especially without Gold. 12 with saws in combat is a very different matter however. YMMV though so give it a whirl. 

[snaga]

10 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

@Cauthon re: your list, from what I’ve seen to date 6 shooting Riggers don’t actually do that much, especially without Gold. 12 with saws in combat is a very different matter however. YMMV though so give it a whirl. 

Thanks will give it a go

[Nick907]

Endrinriggers with guns aren’t going to do as much damage in a turn as they would with saws but they can hide behind a Skyvessel and survive longer, so they will do more work over time, on average. The saws are kind of a one and done technique, Endrinriggers in melee hit hard but die quick. 

[Asm00]

32 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

@Cauthon re: your list, from what I’ve seen to date 6 shooting Riggers don’t actually do that much, especially without Gold. 12 with saws in combat is a very different matter however. YMMV though so give it a whirl. 

So I may be wrong, but on average it seems 6 riggers kitted out for shooting, with all guns in range, will outperform 10 thunderers point for point.

200pts of riggers will do 7 wounds on average with some at -2 and the rest at -1.

240pts of thunderers will do 7.33 at -1.

Thunderers still have the benefit from being in a boat for protection and having more bodies though, but I wouldn’t say riggers don’t do that much when shooting.

[5kaven5lave]

I know I sounded a bit negative, I do love shooty Riggers and the hitching is ace. My only beef is with that one shot hitting on 4s for the special weapons, obviously it evens out but if you’re only throwing one die (or 2 in a unit of 6) you’re more likely to do no damage than anything else vs. a 4+ save. EDIT: Talking Drill Launcher there. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by 5kaven5lave

[Asm00]

Maybe you’re right.

I’m going to try leaving the thunderers at home next game see if I miss them.

[5kaven5lave]

Give them a try fella, as I said in my original post YMMV (also I am enthusiastic but terrible at Warhammer). I will always have some balloon boys as those models are fab. My list has gone through about 5 iterations since my game last Friday so I’m trying everything out at the moment.

Though Thunderers lack the movement, you’re getting more bodies for your points which is an area we definitely fall down on and having more easy access to Gold is a big one. Them being fairly static allows you to make use of a Khemist more easily too. 

[Qaz]

Been playing with Tzeentch lately because (competitive) mates all want to check out all new fuss about. Here, I'm somewhat glad that KO's highest placing at Cancon is 30th. 

That means I can take it against anyone and people don't dread facing KO. 🤣

Still think that the Ironclad should be 450-460 point model though. And the admirals and heroes drop 10-20 points each. Otherwise everything else is good (even arkanauts).

[Cauthon]

4 hours ago, snaga said:

Thanks. I am looking to run 2 groups of 6. 1 with chain saws and 1 shoot with 2 Volley gun and 2 drill. What do you think

I think you take the skyhook and grapnel even if you want to be combat orientated. 

[Nick907]

My current list utilizes shooty Riggers to maximum effect:

Endrinmaster with dirigible suit general

1x ironclad w/volleygun 

1x gunhauler w/drill cannon 

1x5 Thunderers w/ rifles

10x3 Endrinriggers w/volleyguns & drill cannons 

I start the Thunderers inside the ironclad, and keep the general and 2 units of riggers close enough to repair and hitch

I keep the gunhauler close enough to help defend the ironclad and give it 2 units of riggers as well, close enough to repair either Skyvessel. 
 
the remaining 6 units of Endrinriggers spread out, claim objectives, shoot at enemies, and relieve repair duty if one of those units hitching skyvessels is weakened. 
 

so I have a total of 10 ‘drill launcher’ attacks that do 3 mortal wounds on a 6 to hit  at 24” away,  or do 4/3/-3/d3 otherwise. Great for targeting heroes and high priority spell casters. 

Volleyguns are pretty good too, especially against low armored horde type units.  
That’s 60 shots at 4/4/-1/1 also from 24” away. Rivet guns are the weakest link, but 30 shots at 3/4/-1/1 is a good little boost when enemies are in range. 
 

so altogether my Endrinrigger’s shooting has a potential damage output of 120 per turn, averaging around 31 damage per turn if everything shoots. Since I have the mobility to pick and choose my targets, I think that’s really good. 
 

When I add my general, ironclad, gunhauler, and Thunderers to that and my shooting has 201 potential wounds per turn, or about 59 wounds on average (before saves). 

Defensive placement, priority targeting, and wise use of rerolls can make for a devastating hail of gun shots... and repair up to 34 damage per turn.

[Cauthon]

2 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

I know I sounded a bit negative, I do love shooty Riggers and the hitching is ace. My only beef is with that one shot hitting on 4s for the special weapons, obviously it evens out but if you’re only throwing one die (or 2 in a unit of 6) you’re more likely to do no damage than anything else vs. a 4+ save. EDIT: Talking Drill Launcher there. 

In that list I wrote that everyone ignored I tried to get as many drill cannons into the list I could to try and limit the swingyness of a single shot 4+ to hit. 

 

Dont forget the drill cannons have a Better range  compared to thunderers. They also repair, are cheaper and have their own mobility  

 

I really think riggers should have 3 wounds but I think they still compare favorably to thunderers. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Cauthon
Correctness

[Kramer]

56 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

I think you take the skyhook and grapnel even if you want to be combat orientated. 

Imo maybe in 6+ units. But from before the book I never had that much trouble getting the baloon boys into the combat I want without fly high. It never worked if I threw them in turn one, always turn two so they could start picking things apart instead of charging into a full battleline. 

So you will (mostly) get into the combat you want. And if that's their role I want them to do their damage then. The whole army is already build for shooting so enough options to take out the pieces you need range for. But no other real option for taking out things you need to get into combat for. 

TLDR if you want a combat orientated unit I wouldn't dilute their combat potential by bringing the special guns. With units of 6+ then maybe because you will start to struggle to get everything in. imo.

[5kaven5lave]

58 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

I really think riggers should have 3 wounds but I think they still compare favorably to thunderers. 

This is the dream...

EDIT: Anyone been running the Iron Sky Command?

Edited January 29, 2020 by 5kaven5lave

[Kramer]

58 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

In that list I wrote that everyone ignored I tried to get as many drill cannons into the list I could to try and limit the swingyness of a single shot 4+ to hit. 

 

Maybe I didn't reply but I'm actually (re)building my gunhaulers to drill cannons for the same reason. To have something in your toolbox that isn't impacted by minuses to hit vs shooting might become very very useful in the coming months. 

[Boar]

16 hours ago, Kramer said:

If it helps, I just did the math for 10 man thunderer unit vs 4+ save (but my dumbass closed the window before saving the results 😅)

Only if you get the +1 to hit for being on the ground and are within 12" range. Then and only then do the special weapons beat rifles. Set up as most suggested here: 1 decksweeper, 2 cannons, 1 mortar, 1 fumigator 1 gunnery sargeant,  rest rifles vs. 1 sarge, 1 fumigator, rest rifles.

 

I use this tool for the damage potentials: http://tools.druchii.net/AoS-Combat-Calculator.php

They being within 12" is obviously a must, but I am getting different result vs 4+ save. Just aethercannon and decksweeper (so two models) without bonus ( so they hit on 4+) deal the same average damage as three rifledwarfs

[Kramer]

12 minutes ago, Boar said:

They being within 12" is obviously a must, but I am getting different result vs 4+ save. Just aethercannon and decksweeper (so two models) without bonus ( so they hit on 4+) deal the same average damage as three rifledwarfs

I filled it out om in the drucchi combat calculator and versus 4+  
Calculate for the full unit by the way because the mortar on its own had a 80+ percent chance of doing zero damage  

but do the calculation  and I’ll fill out the druchii calculator later today and we’ll see  maybe I just missed something. 

both one fumigator  and sergeant. both against a 4+ everything in range.  
but regardless imo the range is the clincher  

 

[Cauthon]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Imo maybe in 6+ units. But from before the book I never had that much trouble getting the baloon boys into the combat I want without fly high. It never worked if I threw them in turn one, always turn two so they could start picking things apart instead of charging into a full battleline. 

So you will (mostly) get into the combat you want. And if that's their role I want them to do their damage then. The whole army is already build for shooting so enough options to take out the pieces you need range for. But no other real option for taking out things you need to get into combat for. 

TLDR if you want a combat orientated unit I wouldn't dilute their combat potential by bringing the special guns. With units of 6+ then maybe because you will start to struggle to get everything in. imo.

I don’t think you need the skyhook for the charge bonus, I think you need to take the special weapons to maximize our shooting. If you are a melee unit then the skyhook and grapnel have more value than the drill cannons. 

 

Even if you have nothing but combat riggers, I don’t think you want to go charging into combats. 

We are an elite army that is pretty squishy which is a bad combo imo. 

Riggers have good damage potential but they can’t survive combat with ANYTHING that WANTS to be in combat. 

So I think having the special weapons are a must to give you something worthwhile to do while you wait for your chance to jump into a winnable combat later on the game after your shooting has weakened the enemy. 

 

If you want to get in combat with a melee something I would get close to it, shoot it in the face and then stand there and let them charge you, one less combat phase for you to lose dudes in and maybe you get the double turn to shoot him in the face again. 

 

I think its very telling that our “command options” are tied into our guns. Speaks to what the army is about (guns)

[jake3991]

Figured I'd try and contribute here, I sat down with a friend of mine, both of us are competitive players.  We went through the whole KO book cover to cover and this is what we came up with as a list.  Figured I'd put it out in the world in case anyone is looking for ideas or wants to provide feedback. 

The concept is pretty simple, we tried to lean into KO's strengths, ranged output and mobility.  This means all units have a ride or fly, drop down and take out an opponents flank/key pieces and watch the rest crumble, not unlike clown-car from the previous book. I feel like this list is a great glass cannon with 3 small units of riggers for portable screens, objective grabbing and harassment.  I also would not under estimate the mobility and toughness of the ships, reminds me a lot of the old Sylveneth, very mobile and damage where you need it.  

As far as sky port you can kind of go wherever you want, but battle-line is handled with the new guy as general and 3 units of riggers. 

LEADERS
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220) (general)
UNITS
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
BEHEMOTHS
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Kharadron Overlords Battleline (Sky Port: Barak Zilfin)
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)(extra space endrinwork)

[5kaven5lave]

Saw Riggers in a unit of 12 with Gold for reroll hits and a Khemist reroll 1s to wound buff comes up as 15-23 wounds vs a 4+ save, that‘s not including the shooting they did beforehand (7-12 wounds without gold but with the Khemist buff). That’s brutal.

Against a 3+ save monster it’s still 11-19 and 5-9.

Against anything but the largest hordes that’d wipe it out. Would happily tank 400 points into balloon boys to delete their big piece turn 1 or 2 as @Kramer said. Go with Urbaz and give them the second gold for rerolling saves when they muster something to come back at you. Proper nasty unit. Glass cannon, but nasty. Could even pull a ship in there to pick them up again in your next turn if your losses at more than 4. 

[Cauthon]

 

12 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Saw Riggers in a unit of 12 with Gold for reroll hits and a Khemist reroll 1s to wound buff comes up as 15-23 wounds vs a 4+ save, that‘s not including the shooting they did beforehand (7-12 wounds without gold but with the Khemist buff). That’s brutal.

Against a 3+ save monster it’s still 11-19 and 5-9.

Against anything but the largest hordes that’d wipe it out. Would happily tank 400 points into balloon boys to delete their big piece turn 1 or 2 as @Kramer said. Go with Urbaz and give them the second gold for rerolling saves when they muster something to come back at you. Proper nasty unit. Glass cannon, but nasty. Could even pull a ship in there to pick them up again in your next turn if your losses at more than 4. 

I wouldn’t hold our breath on rerolling saves. Did you use that share in the combat phase or shooting phase in that model? If you were rerolling hits in combat you can’t reroll saves in that combat. 

I don’t know about rerolling saves anyway. Any kind of monster you want to throw a 400 point unit at is going to have some rend 1 and 2 so what’s the point of rerolling 5+or 6+ saves? 

[Cauthon]

25 minutes ago, jake3991 said:

Figured I'd try and contribute here, I sat down with a friend of mine, both of us are competitive players.  We went through the whole KO book cover to cover and this is what we came up with as a list.  Figured I'd put it out in the world in case anyone is looking for ideas or wants to provide feedback. 

The concept is pretty simple, we tried to lean into KO's strengths, ranged output and mobility.  This means all units have a ride or fly, drop down and take out an opponents flank/key pieces and watch the rest crumble, not unlike clown-car from the previous book. I feel like this list is a great glass cannon with 3 small units of riggers for portable screens, objective grabbing and harassment.  I also would not under estimate the mobility and toughness of the ships, reminds me a lot of the old Sylveneth, very mobile and damage where you need it.  

As far as sky port you can kind of go wherever you want, but battle-line is handled with the new guy as general and 3 units of riggers. 

LEADERS
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220) (general)
UNITS
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (240)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
3 x Endrinriggers (100)
BEHEMOTHS
Arkanaut Frigate (250)
- Kharadron Overlords Battleline (Sky Port: Barak Zilfin)
Arkanaut Ironclad (510)(extra space endrinwork)

What’s the reasoning behind 2 units of thhnderers in the iron clad instead of 1 large one? 

[5kaven5lave]

3 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

 

I wouldn’t hold our breath on rerolling saves. Did you use that share in the combat phase or shooting phase in that model? If you were rerolling hits in combat you can’t reroll saves in that combat. 

I don’t know about rerolling saves anyway. Any kind of monster you want to throw a 400 point unit at is going to have some rend 1 and 2 so what’s the point of rerolling 5+or 6+ saves? 

Just in combat fella. My argument was you’d delete the unit they got into combat with so that by the time you had to defend it would be your opponent’s turn so Gold would be ok.

Point taken re: rerolling saves but if you have a unit on the verge of decimation and you have a share, you’re gonna use it to try and stay alive right?

[Cauthon]

5 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Just in combat fella. My argument was you’d delete the unit they got into combat with so that by the time you had to defend it would be your opponent’s turn so Gold would be ok.

Point taken re: rerolling saves but if you have a unit on the verge of decimation and you have a share, you’re gonna use it to try and stay alive right?

Maybe. Riggers job is to be Killy though not tanky. If the unit is about to get wiped I would hope I already used their shares offensively. 

If I’m using shares defensively it’s most likely going to be rerolling saves on a boat. 

Using shares is a bit trickier that I originally thought. Takes a bit of foresight, list depending.