AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[TheThievingMick]

Models that dont want to get piledrivered by Archaeon, I imagine.  Things like Ironclads.

[novembermike]

9 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Why do I need to screen a model that can be anywhere I want on the board? What good units are arks screening? Models that will just fly high across the board? Lol. 

Why would you fly high across the board if you're screened? There will be cases where that's a good idea but if the enemy can teleport across the map or threaten you from anywhere you can shoot then teleporting randomly seems like a bad idea. 

[novembermike]

12 minutes ago, TheThievingMick said:

Models that dont want to get piledrivered by Archaeon, I imagine.  Things like Ironclads.

Yep. Archaeon's an example but there's a lot of other armies that either have teleport or rapid movement shenanigans, and ironclads only have 12" range on their shorter ranged guns. Proper zoning can give you mathematical certainty that you are safe for a turn.

[Satyrical Sophist]

There are a lot of choices on how to build KO units.

They also clearly want their to be positives and negatives to different choices and playstyles.

 

What's the best way to build Thunderers? Different load outs do different things. 

The rifle build seems to be best for back line and in boats.

The special weapon teams do the most damage if everything is in range.

I think someone has also mathed out that a unit of 10 or 15 with a single mortar, max cannons and some number of deck sweepers is the best damage.

One thing I've heard a lot is people complaining that some units don't get buffs in boats. Have you considered what the current state would be if you COULD benefit from all the abilities while in a ship, or the range of some stuff was long enough to shoot after fly high.

You could make a really brutal ironclad. Put in 15 thunderers and a khemist. Pick all the special weapons. If the enemy charges your ironclad they would be at -2 to hit the ironclad itselfs with its 3+ potentially rerollable saves, or -3 to hit the crew, who have a 3+ rerollable as well.

What's more, it's really hard for your opponents to do anything about, and runs the risk of every game ending up the same.

The good news is that if KO are underpowered (maybe they are, maybe they aren't) then you can fix a lot with points changes or easy to adjust stuff in the GHB. The worse case is where stuff requires significant rewrites to improve (I'd argue that BoC needs a whole new set of alliegence abilities and some fundamental warscroll changes to be fixed)

[Qaz]

6 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Its too bad they used to be poo and I don’t own any yet. Will be getting 3 for sure. (Unless pointy aelves blow me away on Thursday)

They were poo ... and people keep selling them for cheap secondhand, and when the battletome dropped... i had 5 gunhauler (4 unbuilt) haha. End up selling up the 5th.

Damn nice to see people doing well.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Qaz

[DeadpoolNakago]

This is a battle report for a slow grow league at my FLGS. This is week 2 and we had 1100 points to spend. Week 1 I defeated Ogors by unfortunately not understanding Frigates cant fly high with 11+ models. This battleplan was kind of a mixed bag for both sides as it crippled the shooting ability of both armies, but tilted towards benefitting KO due to Skyvessel Fly High ability.

 

KO:

1 CP

Escort Wing Battalion

2 Gunhaulers

1 Frigate

5 Thunderers

1 Endrinmaster - Aetherquartz Brooch

1 Admiral (General) - War Wound, Proclamator Mask

 

Skaven:

20 Clanrats

20 Clanrats

10 Stormvermin

1 Ratling Gunner

1 Ratling Gunner

1 Doom Cannon

1 Doom Cannon

1 Warlock Engineer

1 Archwarlock

 

Battleplan:

4'x 4'

An undispellable 1/2" tall prismatic palisade runs down the center of the board

Players choose sides and set up 12" or more from the Palisade

You get a victory point for each unit that ends the turn wholly on the enemy half of the board

 

Set Up and Round 1:

KO get 2 aether gold from "Take what you are owed". Gives one to Thunderers, one to Frigate.

Skaven set up Gnaw Holes

KO finishes set up first, sets up on a far corner and has Skaven go first.

KO have Gunhaulers and Frigate on board. Thunderers, Admiral, and Endrinmaster are garrisoned in Frigate

Skaven send the stormvermin through gnawhole, moves units to prevent Fly High. Stormvermin fail their charge. Skaven ends turn with 1 point.

KO go through hero phase, move all boats to 9" from stormvermin, and shoot stormvermin off the board. Thunderers spend their gold to reroll failed hits.

After round 1, Skaven 1 - KO 0. KO finishes round with 3 CP

 

Round 2, KO wins the roll, defers for SKaven to go first. Skaven player moves all units except a Ratling gunner towards pallisade. Rating gunner moves within Gnawhole range and Skaven ends the turn. KO starts turn by gaining 1 CP and spend spending 2 command points and Proclamator mask CP to run skyvessels up to 2.5 inches from Pallisade, planning to keep skaven from crossing pallisade on their next move to enable shooting. KO rolls 5+ for aetherquartz brooch for 2 spent CP. After round 2, Skaven 1 - KO 0. KO finishes round with 4 CP

 

Round 3, Skaven wins the roll and elects to go first. Skaven send ratling gunners through gnawhole, and moves 20 clanrats, both doom cannons and engineer within average charge distance. Ratling gunners shoot 1 gunhauler. KO spends a gold for gunhaulers to reroll saves. Gunners do 3 wounds. On Charge phase Engineer charges to injured gunhauler. Clanrats and Doom Cannons fail charges. In combat, KO spends a CP for Gunhauler to reroll saves 1, Engineer does 6 damage to Gunhauler. KO gets CP back from Brooch. Skaven end their turn and gain two victory points. On KOs third turn, KO decide to now fly high into Skaven territory needing to starts coring points and desperate to not lose injured gunhauler. KO gets 2 CP to be at 6. Going on the offensive KO lands 9" from cluster of 1 model units (Archwarlock, 2 Doom Cannons, 1 ratling gunner unit). During shooting KO spends 1 CP for 1 gunhauler and thunderers to reroll 1s, while targeting 1 doomcannon for focused fire. 1 Gunhauler shoots at focused gunhauler and does 1 wound. Second gunhauler uses carbines to shoot second gunhauler and shoot greta cannon at archwarlock. Doom cannon takes 1 wound, archwarlock dies. Thunderers shoot at focused Doomcannon and deals 4 wounds. Frigate spends gold to reroll failed hits, shoots other doom cannon and deals 6 damage. Aetherquartz brooch gets back 1 CP. KO attempts charges, rerolling for all 3 boats and no rolls are 9+. Aetherquarts brooch returns 2 CP. KO finish round and score is now Skaven 3, KO 6. KO has 4 CP.

 

Round 4, KO wins roll and goes for double turn. KO gains 2 CP to be at 6. KO shoots doomcannons and ratling gunner off board. Ko elects not to charge CLanrats and ends turn. KO is at 12, Skaven 3, and skaven concedes game.

 

What I learned: I was awful at determining targets for firing, splitting firing in round 3 when I probably should not have. Aethergold is cool as it saved my gunhauler with rerolling saves. The difference between "rerolling failed saves" and "rerolling saves" was a key lesson I learned this game. The plethora of Command points was so key as I was drowning in them, but had low unit numbers to ensure their abundance could be handed out liberally across several phases, mitigating the limitation of one aethergold per phase with CP supplements. The battle plan was titled fairly in KOs favor as Skaven were shut out of their shooting and magic unless they could cross half way the board, and KO could move to block Skaven crossing halfway outside charges. Battleplans that stress needing movement and crossing vast distances are obviously in KO's favor. The game definitely hinged on getting the double turn between turn 3 and 4.

[cofaxest]

10 hours ago, Phasteon said:

All the people talking about how bad/disappointing this book is achieve nothing but creating a negative vibe about this amazing army. Thats why I and probably so many others are disagreeing so aggressively. 

 

Just for clarification. Bad book doesn't mean weak faction. 

[novembermike]

5 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

There are a lot of choices on how to build KO units.

They also clearly want their to be positives and negatives to different choices and playstyles.

Yep. People complain about this but it's a hallmark of good game design. If you want something powerful, you must give up something else. If you want to run you can't shoot or charge. If you want to get into melee the other guy gets to fight back as well. if you have choices that are 100% then that's a bad thing.

[Phasteon]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

Just for clarification. Bad book doesn't mean weak faction. 

And what does that have to do with my point? 
You can say that you dont like the book, that its badly written and and and. 

But people also need to accept that there are people who like the book, think its properly written and enjoy playing the army AND have success with it. 

People act as if its 100% fact that its a bad tome and people who like it „have no idea“. 

There is nothing wrong to like something, but there is something wrong by trying to convince people to not like it by constantly writing negative things about it. 

This is not a therapists couch but a forum where you should try to be positive and constructive, youre helping nobody by telling people that everything is bad and unbalanced. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Phasteon

[cofaxest]

9 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

 

There is nothing wrong to like something, but there is something wrong by trying to convince people to not like it by constantly writing negative things about it. 

This works both way. 

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Why do I need to screen a model that can be anywhere I want on the board? What good units are arks screening? Models that will just fly high across the board? Lol. 

It’s great that our ships fly high and as such can set up in the corner. But what will you do against those crazy fast gore grunta’s? Or anything that has the same threat range as us? 
Arkanauts are tough to fit in because all the toys cost so much. But I haven’t played a single army I didn’t have a use for 1 or 2 screening units. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Kramer

[Phasteon]

22 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

This works both way. 

You still dont get my point it seems.

[Phasteon]

I make a clear example for you @cofaxest so you and many others understand the difference between constructive criticism and toxic negativity. 

 

„Thunderers cant use their abilities from inside the ship. 

I‘d suggest using them outside the boat then for maximum efficiency. 

I dont like it though, as I prefer them being inside the ship“ 

Constructive

 

“Thunderers have so crappy ruling, why the hell would you give them a rule that only works outside a ship when the army theme is using boats?? GW hates me“ 

You see the difference? Doesnt make you look very competent if you write things like that nonstop.

[Ellarr]

8 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Why do I need to screen a model that can be anywhere I want on the board? What good units are arks screening? Models that will just fly high across the board? Lol. 

Did you know that a unit of 40 slaanesh marauders under daemonic power, assuming 20 get in range to attack (trivial after teleportation as they have a 8" minimum charge) will have a 70% of doing 31 unsaved wounds to an ironclad? Let's say you burn your aether gold to reroll failed saves, it's still approximately 14~ wounds dealt, thus disabling fly high.

If you're going to put at minimum 25% of your army into one model, for goodness sake screen it. Your opponent gets a turn after you, and can possibly even double turn you.

[cofaxest]

18 minutes ago, Kramer said:

It’s great that our ships fly high and as such can set up in the corner. But what will you do against those crazy fast gore grunta’s? Or anything that has the same threat range as us? 
Arkanauts are tough to fit in because all the toys cost so much. But I haven’t played a single army I didn’t have a use for 1 or 2 screening units. 

Go first and kill it? But I will be very happy to have 200 more pts that I can spend on 20 screening arco.

[marke]

How Thunderers should be built? Fulmigator and then what? Planning to run 5 first, expand to 10 later.

[cofaxest]

8 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

I make a clear example for you @cofaxest so you and many others understand the difference between constructive criticism and toxic negativity. 

 

„Thunderers cant use their abilities from inside the ship. 

I‘d suggest using them outside the boat then for maximum efficiency. 

I dont like it though, as I prefer them being inside the ship“ 

Constructive

It's not even criticism it's just constatation. 

11 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

"Thunderers have so crappy ruling, why the hell would you give them a rule that only works outside a ship when the army theme is using boats?? GW hates me“ 

You see the difference? Doesnt make you look very competent if you write things like that nonstop.

And this is not toxic at all. It's just a person who spend alot of money on his minis and not happy with ruling. 

And both examples are perfectly fine for me. 

For me toxic behavior is more like this:"Your opinion about X is irrelevant because I have different experience with X". 

And constructive is: "I have different opinion about X because of my experience with it". 

[Borsuk]

 

11 minutes ago, marke said:

How Thunderers should be built? Fulmigator and then what? Planning to run 5 first, expand to 10 later.

The I like my thunderers simple and use them with full rifle, cuz it gives me more flexibility. But my ghost busters 10 man squad would be something like that:

- 1-2 fumigators 

- 1 mortar

- 2 canons and shotguns

- rest rifles 

Mortar is there just for to hit bonus, fumigators nunber depends on how big debuff aura you want (I would bring khemist to lead them and to improve aura), and  the rest is just for this sweet, sweet damage. If you'd like to build more, I'd suggest adding canons and shotguns with rifles. 

[cofaxest]

11 minutes ago, marke said:

How Thunderers should be built? Fulmigator and then what? Planning to run 5 first, expand to 10 later.

5 man - rifles + 1 fumigator(optional)

10 man - rifles + 1 mortar + 2 cannons + 2 sweepers + 1 or 2 fumigators

15 man - rifles + 1 mortar + 3 cannons + 3 sweepers + 3 fumigators

20 man - rifles + 1-4 mortars + 4 cannons + 4 sweepers + 4 fumigators.

But you always can go full rifles if you have no plans to engage your enemy and want to harass your enemy from 18 inch range.

[Phasteon]

43 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

It's not even criticism it's just constatation. 

And this is not toxic at all. It's just a person who spend alot of money on his minis and not happy with ruling. 

And both examples are perfectly fine for me. 

For me toxic behavior is more like this:"Your opinion about X is irrelevant because I have different experience with X". 

And constructive is: "I have different opinion about X because of my experience with it". 

We disagree so fundamentally that there is just no point in discussing with each other. Pls stop answering my posts and I will do the same. 

Edit: No hard feelings btw but its tiresome to argue with someone knowing that he will disagree anyway just for the sake of it. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Phasteon

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

Go first and kill it? But I will be very happy to have 200 more pts that I can spend on 20 screening arco.

Good luck dealing with the rest of the army the next turn and the potential double. Not to mention getting lower drops.
Did a quick check but the Ironjawz lists that do well in the last few tournaments all feature Ironfist (extra movement) that house all the units + 2/3 heroes. So you need a 2 drop list to be sure and at three you likely need to win the roll off for deployment. 
But if it works to you more power to you. 

[cofaxest]

1 minute ago, Kramer said:

Good luck dealing with the rest of the army the next turn and the potential double. Not to mention getting lower drops.
Did a quick check but the Ironjawz lists that do well in the last few tournaments all feature Ironfist (extra movement) that house all the units + 2/3 heroes. So you need a 2 drop list to be sure and at three you likely need to win the roll off for deployment. 
But if it works to you more power to you. 

I know one IJ player with alot of models. Wanna try to play against him) probably will be painfull experience)

[cofaxest]

6 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

We disagree so fundamentally that there is just no point in discussing with each other. Pls stop answering my posts and I will do the same. 

With that I agree)

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, marke said:

How Thunderers should be built? Fulmigator and then what? Planning to run 5 first, expand to 10 later.

How do you want to use them, backline, in a ship, or by theirselves?

[Kramer]

44 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

I know one IJ player with alot of models. Wanna try to play against him) probably will be painfull experience)

Does he play Ironfist with one or two mawcrushers? Because that's the main theme I saw with the tournament lists on the Honest Wargamer. 
And bringing it back to the need or lack of need for screening units I feel these are good examples you will want some. If you know what you're playing things could be different sure. But as a general tournament list I would def take 2x10 minimum. 
But again what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others.