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AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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4 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

Add in hand of gork threatening OUR backlines it gets a bit sketchy moving the ship when you might get double turned. 

In the 2 games i played i focused manglers ( he brought 2, one with the hero on top one without) and then bounders when possible. So im on the right track it sounds like. The manglers are pretty beefy and hit hard as ****** though.  And if you cant finish them off they can become jut as deadly as a full bracket!

Yeah hand of gork is pain, and wizard is of course hiding behing loonshrine (which is shrine`s unwritten additional ability🙂).

The problem I can see with engaging squigs too much, is that it could leave not enough time to clear grots from objective (I usually put grudge on largest grot unit btw).

Also when clearing grots you have to position your guys and ships taking into account grots crawling out of loonshrine. Since we are not numerous we can lose command of objective by enemy simply running close.

There is also matter of navigator`s aetherstorm, which if succesful vs. manglers/boingrots can buy more time to shot at grots.

 

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Just wanted to share my conversion of the flying Endrinmaster:

 

WhatsApp Image 2020-01-14 at 18.48.27 (1).jpeg

WhatsApp Image 2020-01-14 at 18.48.27.jpeg

 

I didn't like the original pose so I took the legs from the Skywarden from Thundrik's gang. I also think the mini is a bit too busy so I didn't attach all the small arms on the sides and I found his original cannon and melee weapon too small, so I upgraded them a bit. ;)

Edited by Causalis
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53 minutes ago, Asamu said:

Curious how people are playing Aethergold atm. It says "you can pick a triumph it is eligible to use and immediately apply its effect". Does that mean you have to have an available triumph (which requires your list to be less points than the opponents)? Or can you just pick any of the 6 from the list and use it even if your list was more points?

You ignore the normal rules for getting a triumph because the Aethergold is what gives you access to it. So you just pick one of the list and use it. Also, it doesn't specify start of the phase or anything so you can wait for your opponent to roll attacks before deciding if you want to use a gold to reroll saves. Not sure if that 2nd part will get FAQ'd.

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10 minutes ago, Causalis said:

I didn't like the original pose so I took the legs from the Skywarden from Thundrik's gang. I also think the mini is a bit too busy so I didn't attach all the small arms on the sides and I found his original cannon and melee weapon too small, so I upgraded them a bit.

Love idea with saw-spear

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2 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

Im terrible at picking up sarcasm in text, so im just going to assume this was sarcastic lol. 

If it wasnt :D.....then no its not nearly the same haha. 

Hehe I now wonder the same thing. 
But just to satisfy my curiousity. Why isn't it nearly the same? 
Because both are decidedly narrative choices at heart to exclude elements of the game.
According to GW: Dwarves don't use magic. but with fyreslayers they decided the importance of their religion should manifest itself on the battlefield. And KO don't do magic, and renounced praying to the gods. So no magic or prayers. Makes sense for me. 
According to GW: Skellies don't run. They do crumble though. (which works better with AoS battleshock btw). Now we have more sentient skellies. So they don't run, they grind themselves to dust for the cause. 
Matches how the rules writers describe the proces. Models first and then the background and then making that happen on the tabletop. 

But again genuinely curious why you feel it's so far off. 

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2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Just curious. 

 

Does an an ironclad with 15 thunderers in it count as 2 units or 4 for the purposes of (not) allying in KO into a cos army?

Each Unit is defined as a single Warscroll purchase.  If the Grundstok Thunderers only have one Gunnery Sergeant then they add one unit.  If there were two or three Gunnery Sergeants then that is how many units they add for Tempest Eye from Cities of Sigmar,

So your expecting them to count from 2 to 4 for the Standing Contracts rule is correct.

Godspeed fitting 860 points of KO if you end up needing twelve CoS units in the worst case scenario.  With the Double-barrel Aethershot Rifle option I wouldn’t blame you for trying to magically shoehorn all that in.

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53 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is there any consensious about the spell of the Bottle? What is the best we can take? I assume we can take any spell, even the only faction ones.

 

P.S. I like one of the generics, the Shackles.

Some other ones I've seen people throwing out are the Comet spell that stormcast eternal can do and the "warp lighting" spell that I assume is something horribly devious Skaven have access to.

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52 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is there any consensious about the spell of the Bottle? What is the best we can take? I assume we can take any spell, even the only faction ones.

 

P.S. I like one of the generics, the Shackles.

Warp lightning is one of the best endless spells in general. Helps board control, (potential) massive damage. Hard to dispel. But shortish range.

Can also trap big bases and due to prohibiting flight that works on flying monsters as well. 

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SPELL IN A BOTTLE....  I do not see the value in it.  First it takes up an artifact slot when there are soooo many good choices here - looking at you Sven's flair gun and phosphor bomblets.  In addition, you are spending points on a once per game cast.  Opponent dispels it next turn and done.  Points gone.   We are talking 100 points.. that's 3 endrinriggers... that's three wounds back on a ship (maybe) per turn... that's drill cannon/volleygun/skyhook/aethersaw damage... that's objective grabbing.. etc.

Sure it is neat.. but holy hell... I'd rather reroll all my hits, army wide, on one critical unit (flare gun) or phosphor bomb an OBR unit.   Plus get more bodies on the board.   Am I crazy?

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1 hour ago, Kramer said:

but just to satisfy my curiousity. Why isn't it nearly the same? 

Well, narratively ya it kinda is the same. The fluff works in that regard, cant deny that. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Because both are decidedly narrative choices at heart to exclude elements of the game.
According to GW: Dwarves don't use magic. but with fyreslayers they decided the importance of their religion should manifest itself on the battlefield. And KO don't do magic, and renounced praying to the gods. So no magic or prayers. Makes sense for me. 
According to GW: Skellies don't run. They do crumble though. (which works better with AoS battleshock btw). Now we have more sentient skellies. So they don't run, they grind themselves to dust for the cause. 
Matches how the rules writers describe the proces. Models first and then the background and then making that happen on the tabletop. 

IMO narrative choices should not affect game rules. And this has been my biggest disconnect with AOS and GW. I want a game first and foremost, and i want fluff 2nd. If a game designer is making a rule based on fluff and ignoring the game because of it, that could result in an unbalanced rule. I want a balanced game, i want every army to have an equal chance at winning, or as close as we can get. 

Fyreslayers getting prayers is primo, its exactly what i want to see, and i have less of a problem with them having no magic when they have prayers to fall back on. I would still love for them to have something to compensate further for no magic interaction outside of taking specific artifacts. Prayers are something that can't be affected by enemies so far, where as magic is intended to be challenged.  Ex.Navigator; its a good start, innate chance at an unbind, using technology. They dont need to use magic if Narrative is the only thing we're worried about, give them magic but literally slap a different name on it and make them inventions or works of science. Now we have some control of a phase liek every other army in the game. GW needs to move beyond the "dwarfs have no magic" narrative and into the " dwarves dont need no stinking magic they have "insert army specific chart here" . functionally the same thing, but in line with narratives. 

OBR ignoring battleshock is what i mentioned above, a rule based on fluff leads to an unbalanced rule. This is fluff that has these elite horde mobs with great healing and survivability ignore the one flipping thing that could bite them in the ass by doing something unprecedented and that every single other army has to have and invest multiple strategies to deal with. having a leader nearby with a bubble, having a CP ready for a battlshock.  Its a pure benefit, there is no downside to NOT taking battleshock.  

So fluff/narrative OBR is on point, and Duradin are just getting the short end of the stick for some old flavor that needs to be moved beyond.
But mechanically one purely benefits from their fluff while the other only suffers. Its bad game design. 

Again, thats my biggest disconnect, i want a fair, balanced, game first and foremost, and flavor and fluff after that. 

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7 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

thats my biggest disconnect, i want a fair, balanced, game first and foremost, and flavor and fluff after that. 

But... then GW according to their own communications isn’t building what you want. They are model -> make rules that fit. 
I get your other arguments though. And we could discuss wether or not having impact in every aspect of the game is needed for balance. Because we seem to disagree on that front a bit. Which is fine. But your core philosophy game first being so mirrored from the GW approach would worry me very much as a consumer. 

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17 minutes ago, Kramer said:

According to GW: Dwarves don't use magic. but with fyreslayers they decided the importance of their religion should manifest itself on the battlefield

In WHFB the dwarfs didn't use magic directly because of how volatile and dangerous it was(read: unreliable elf ******), but still studied it and "wielded" it through runes, which is basically what Fyreslayers do -with the addition of their religion to it as you said.
There was also dwarf wizard in the earlier editions of WHFB, but those are retconned completely.

I noticed something interesting in our new battletome though. It seems like there might have been something called "Aethermancers" in Chamon before the KO took to the skies! They don't specify whether these were men or dwarfs, but they speak of them in the same breath as they talk about the old dwarf empires.

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11 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Well, narratively ya it kinda is the same. The fluff works in that regard, cant deny that. 
 

 

IMO narrative choices should not affect game rules. And this has been my biggest disconnect with AOS and GW. I want a game first and foremost, and i want fluff 2nd. If a game designer is making a rule based on fluff and ignoring the game because of it, that could result in an unbalanced rule. I want a balanced game, i want every army to have an equal chance at winning, or as close as we can get. 

Fyreslayers getting prayers is primo, its exactly what i want to see, and i have less of a problem with them having no magic when they have prayers to fall back on. I would still love for them to have something to compensate further for no magic interaction outside of taking specific artifacts. Prayers are something that can't be affected by enemies so far, where as magic is intended to be challenged.  Ex.Navigator; its a good start, innate chance at an unbind, using technology. They dont need to use magic if Narrative is the only thing we're worried about, give them magic but literally slap a different name on it and make them inventions or works of science. Now we have some control of a phase liek every other army in the game. GW needs to move beyond the "dwarfs have no magic" narrative and into the " dwarves dont need no stinking magic they have "insert army specific chart here" . functionally the same thing, but in line with narratives. 

OBR ignoring battleshock is what i mentioned above, a rule based on fluff leads to an unbalanced rule. This is fluff that has these elite horde mobs with great healing and survivability ignore the one flipping thing that could bite them in the ass by doing something unprecedented and that every single other army has to have and invest multiple strategies to deal with. having a leader nearby with a bubble, having a CP ready for a battlshock.  Its a pure benefit, there is no downside to NOT taking battleshock.  

So fluff/narrative OBR is on point, and Duradin are just getting the short end of the stick for some old flavor that needs to be moved beyond.
But mechanically one purely benefits from their fluff while the other only suffers. Its bad game design. 

Again, thats my biggest disconnect, i want a fair, balanced, game first and foremost, and flavor and fluff after that. 

Wow, I‘m overwhelmed by the negativity of this post. 

How is it that I just enjoy that tome, winning games left and right and feeling super positive about everything from fluff to rule design while there are people who seem to lose their mind about „how unbalanced and badly written“ this tome is written. 

I have nothing more to say, just that I completely disagree with pretty much all of your points and I‘m glad that people like you obviously dont develop this game, because otherwise it would probably suck.

 

I‘m done with this thread, wish you guys the best of luck for the future and great fun with this army.

To all of you guys thinking GW betrayed you with that tome, you probably got what you deserved.

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30 minutes ago, Fert said:

SPELL IN A BOTTLE....  I do not see the value in it.  First it takes up an artifact slot when there are soooo many good choices here - looking at you Sven's flair gun and phosphor bomblets.  In addition, you are spending points on a once per game cast.  Opponent dispels it next turn and done.  Points gone.   We are talking 100 points.. that's 3 endrinriggers... that's three wounds back on a ship (maybe) per turn... that's drill cannon/volleygun/skyhook/aethersaw damage... that's objective grabbing.. etc.

Sure it is neat.. but holy hell... I'd rather reroll all my hits, army wide, on one critical unit (flare gun) or phosphor bomb an OBR unit.   Plus get more bodies on the board.   Am I crazy?

It's another tool in the army. A khemist is nice to have sitting on a point with some arkanauts for example, and there are endless spells that cost 50-20 points that can augment our army with amazing plays we don't usually have.
Some of these endless spells like the warp-lightning vortex are also hard to dispel as others are pointing out, and others are game changers that just need one round to do their job. I'm really eyeing those that slow or impede movement for example.

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1 hour ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is there any consensious about the spell of the Bottle? What is the best we can take? I assume we can take any spell, even the only faction ones.

 

P.S. I like one of the generics, the Shackles.

I've been looking at Warp Lightning Vortex or Comet. The WLV is especially nice since it has a higher casting value and can really cause problems. Also I might consider the Wildfire Taurus which can open up opportunities for melee units to get in full strength hits before getting attacked back. The huge toolbox utility of Spell in a Bottle is defiantly not to be overlooked.

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7 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Wow, I‘m overwhelmed by the negativity of this post. 

How is it that I just enjoy that tome, winning games left and right and feeling super positive about everything from fluff to rule design while there are people who seem to lose their mind about „how unbalanced and badly written“ this tome is written. 

I have nothing more to say, just that I completely disagree with pretty much all of your points and I‘m glad that people like you obviously dont develop this game, because otherwise it would probably suck.

 

I‘m done with this thread, wish you guys the best of luck for the future and great fun with this army.

To all of you guys thinking GW betrayed you with that tome, you probably got what you deserved.

Lol i love the new tome, its what ive wanted from Ko since i got into AOS with an ironclad. All im saying is theres space to create magic for the dwarfs lol, i dont think thats such a negative idea.

  And i gotta be honest man, ive been reading this thread for days and the most negativity ive seen is coming from your direction where a mod even warned you, so i mean...you do you, im just here to discuss KO. 

 

22 minutes ago, Kramer said:

But... then GW according to their own communications isn’t building what you want. They are model -> make rules that fit. 
I get your other arguments though. And we could discuss wether or not having impact in every aspect of the game is needed for balance. Because we seem to disagree on that front a bit. Which is fine. But your core philosophy game first being so mirrored from the GW approach would worry me very much as a consumer. 

100% im setting myself up for some disappointment,  but i do enjoy the game and i have a group of awesome friends that got me into it and ive learned to enjoy the hobby aspect of it as well.  Im just hoping they maybe shift directions at some point lol, they can have cool models and fluff and balanced rules.  And if not, it is what it is, but im also a consumer, so here i am voicing my opinion, even if its the antithesis of what GW wants. Im a stubborn guy like that who loves to grumble lol. 

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I’ve been fiddling with new lists, specifically fitting in as many ships as we can. Some people have posted some interesting lists but no one has really pushed it so lets see what we can drop down at 2,000 points (what’s the typical tournament list size these days?).

List 1: Basic Ships

Iron Clad, Great Volley Cannon – 510pts
Iron Clad, Great Volley Cannon – 510pts
Iron Clad, Great Volley Cannon – 510pts
10 Arkanaut Company (Aethermatic Volley Gun, Light Sky Hook, Sky Pike, Volley Pistol) – 90pts

10 Arkanaut Company (Aethermatic Volley Gun, Light Sky Hook, Sky Pike, Volley Pistol) – 90pts

10 Arkanaut Company (Aethermatic Volley Gun, Light Sky Hook, Sky Pike, Volley Pistol) – 90pts

Navigator – 100pts

100 spare points

Total 1900pts

Ironclads have a whole heap of firepower, You can’t take 4 at 2000pts which sucks (old KO book you could alongside 30 ark’s and a 140ish point hero iirc) but the output they have can be significant. Navigator is a solid option but really we have 200 points to play with once battleline and 3 Ironclads are in the list, so one hero minimum and yeah.

Then I was thinking a little more practical – we could run Barak Zilfin and take Frigates s battleline, this’d llow us to get 4 behemoths/ships in the list and also free up points by dropping out the need for 2 units of arks:

List 2: Barak Zilfin Ships

Ironclad, Great Volley Cannon – 510pts
Ironclad, Great Volley Cannon – 510pts
Frigate, Heavy Sky Cannon – 250pts
Frigate, Heavy Sky Cannon – 250pts
10 Arkanaut Company (Aethermatic Volley Gun, Light Sky Hook, Sky Pike, Volley Pistol) – 90pts

Aetherkhemist – 90pts

1700pts For the core list

As a core list this is pretty solid, gives us 300 points to play with. 9 Riggers would be useful, but so too would 2 Grundstokk Gunhaulers with Drill Cannons (or Sky Cannons, the Drill Cannons give us more range and better rend so swinging towards those).


List 2: Zilfin Ships:

Ironclad, Great Volley Cannon, the Last Word (great endrinwork) – 510pts
Ironclad, Great Volley Cannon, Hegsson Solutions ‘Old Reliable’ Hull plates (great endrinwork) – 510pts
Frigate, Heavy Sky Cannon – 250pts
Frigate, Heavy Sky Cannon – 250pts
Grundstock Gunhauler, Drillcannon – 150pts
Grundstock Gunhauler, Drillcannon – 150pts
10 Arkanaut Company (Aethermatic Volley Gun, Light Sky Hook, Sky Pike, Volley Pistol) – 90pts

Aetherkhemist, Staff of Ocular Optimisation (artefact) – 90pts

Total 2000 points
6 Ships


List 3: Barak Urbaz Grundstock Corps:

Hero – Navigator, General – pick a command trait to your style any work – Svaregg-Stein ‘Illuminator’ Flarepistol (artefact) – 100pts
Behemoth – Frigate, Great Endrinwork Breath of Morgrim – 250pts

Battleline 1  – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 2 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 3 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 4 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 5 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 6 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 7 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 8 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 9 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 10 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts

Battleline 11 – Grundstock Gunhauler – 150pts


Total = 2000 points
Aethergold Shares – 14 to 16 (D3 units have 2 not 1!)
12 Ships

NB: This could be a lot of fun heh.

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I think magic is a single component of the game and that excluding dwarfs makes it more flavorful and fun. I think command abilities and special rules are an excellent alternative.

 
My favorite YouTube show, Warhammer Weekly,  just did a pretty overtly negative review of the new book, which was disappointing. I think KO is a great force that requires extra stress on movement, placement, target selection, and late game objective grabbing in order to succeed... but that we have all the tools to make it work. 
 

The old strategy was to win deployment, drop in range of the opponent’s best unit, and vaporize it with shooting. That didn’t work well. Now we should expect to lose deployment, we have to survive alpha strikes, repair, retreat and whittle down enemy units until we can start to take objectives later on in the game. We have to divide the opponent’s forces and take damage while moving all around the board. We need to steal objectives that are poorly guarded with smaller units and keep moving. We need to think about turn 3 as our chance to reclaim objectives and finish off enemies. We shouldn’t be holding down objectives but rather peppering opponents that are. We shouldn’t commit to combats we can’t win outright but bait the enemy splitting up their forces. 
 

Just a few thoughts. 

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3 hours ago, GDD said:

It's another tool in the army. A khemist is nice to have sitting on a point with some arkanauts for example, and there are endless spells that cost 50-20 points that can augment our army with amazing plays we don't usually have.
Some of these endless spells like the warp-lightning vortex are also hard to dispel as others are pointing out, and others are game changers that just need one round to do their job. I'm really eyeing those that slow or impede movement for example.

Khemist is dope for sure!  Just don't want ppl to get so focused on one artifact.. we have utility all over this book.  Kinda awesome actually!

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Here you go Taak

Barak-Urbaz

Escort wing

 

Endrinmaster-Great tinkerer, monolense 

Endrinmaster -generic artifact

 

Ironclad -old reliable, cannon (EW)

Ironclad-cannon

 

Gunhauler-breath ofmorgrim, drill

Gunhauler- drill cannon

 

arkos x 10 

thunderers x 10 rifles, cannons, decksweepers

 

Feels a little light to me but you wanted boats. I’m on a boat!!

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