AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Eevika]

2 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Well then I‘m gonna win against them too. 

I call them easy match ups, as I can basically counter everything that makes those top tier armies so strong

How do you counter Turn 1 alpha armies? KO Is a high drop army 

[Forrix]

2 hours ago, Causalis said:

I have to ask again: Why do people think the Admiral is "amazing"? He is an ok combat character but other than that he doesn't bring much to the table. His abilities are meh. The re-roll 1s for a ship is literally the same as the generic command ability we have in the rulebook. The run + fire ability is redundant as our ships don't run anywhere, they simply fly high. The +1 to-hit in melee is quite gimmicky as our Dwarfs have almost no punch in that phase and the Skyriggers can't profit from the ability since they can never garrison a ship. And the re-roll charge ability is (again) the same as the generic rulebook one. 

So why take this guy, apart from his warlord traits or artefacts? He won't be winning combats against any dedicated melee units and his abilities can be used by other heroes, simply by employing the generic rulebook ones. 

Heroes getting command abilities that are just the same as generic command abilities is a major pet peeve of mine. I think I'll submit an FAQ question asking what is the purpose of command abilities like that? Who knows, maybe if they get enough emails they'll change them or at least provide a note in the designer's commentary about the thought process behind the rule?

[Phasteon]

11 minutes ago, Eevika said:

How do you counter Turn 1 alpha armies? KO Is a high drop army 

Do you even play the game?

It looks as if you refuse to see the obvious strength of our army that makes alpha strike obsolete. 

[Eevika]

Just now, Phasteon said:

Do you even play the game?

It looks as if you refuse to see the obvious strength of our army that makes alpha strike obsolete. 

Would you like to tell me?

[Phasteon]

12 minutes ago, Forrix said:

Heroes getting command abilities that are just the same as generic command abilities is a major pet peeve of mine. I think I'll submit an FAQ question asking what is the purpose of command abilities like that? Who knows, maybe if they get enough emails they'll change them or at least provide a note in the designer's commentary about the thought process behind the rule?

If you read the last page I already answered that question. No need for an FAQ, just basic knowledge of the battletome to understand. 

That being said, those abilities are „ok“ at best, but they are there. Its better to have them than to need them. 

[Phasteon]

3 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Would you like to tell me?

No, the write up would take far too much time and effort. And if I can beat those armies I bet you can do it too if you really try 😉 

Edit: „Can“ doesnt mean „will“, its still a dice game after all 👌🏻

Edited January 13, 2020 by Phasteon

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

3 hours ago, Causalis said:

I have to ask again: Why do people think the Admiral is "amazing"? He is an ok combat character but other than that he doesn't bring much to the table. His abilities are meh. The re-roll 1s for a ship is literally the same as the generic command ability we have in the rulebook. The run + fire ability is redundant as our ships don't run anywhere, they simply fly high. The +1 to-hit in melee is quite gimmicky as our Dwarfs have almost no punch in that phase and the Skyriggers can't profit from the ability since they can never garrison a ship. And the re-roll charge ability is (again) the same as the generic rulebook one. 

So why take this guy, apart from his warlord traits or artefacts? He won't be winning combats against any dedicated melee units and his abilities can be used by other heroes, simply by employing the generic rulebook ones. 

Whilst I generally agree with you, he does have his uses. His rerolls 1s to hit affect the sky vessel and all its garrison so it's more of a budget buy command trait. Throw him in a frigate/ironclad with 1 or 2 units and your saving multiple CP with just the 1 command ability. The reroll charge I'd never use as I wouldn't charge with a sky vessel or any KO unit that isnt Riggers/Wardens. His +1 to hit again affects the whole sky vessel and garrison. Whilst this may not seem like much with our CC output, every little helps if we are stuck in combat with bonegrinz, nighthaunt/other flying races like say deepkin, the change host that stops you from falling back, etc. The extra hitting power on his profile, another hero like an endrinmaster and just the crew and garrisons might break you out of these type of tar pits that we cant disengage from. The run and shoot maybe be useful if you want to get that ship within 9" so you can add some pistol fire (although I don't know if they can as it says the sky vessel can run and charge)  or still fire after inching towards and objective.

His melee itself is alright, it's the stand hero profile copied across in all books, he cant tackle a hero mounted combat monsters by himself but you should be stacking any odds in your favour to ensure he gets the right engagements.

Hes better than he was, hes not amazing or bad, I would personally run the endrinmaster in his dirigible suit if I wanted some combat over the admiral 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
 

Quick warning as I appreciate this is a new book - @Phasteon & @Eevika please stop bickering with each other. This forum is for everybody and we expect member to treat each other with respect. Any further behaviour similar to the last few posts you have added to this forum, will result in Warnings point being issued.

 

[Phasteon]

22 minutes ago, PensivePanther said:

I enjoy the enthusiasm! I'm interested to hear what you think will be KO's tougher matchups. I heard nighthaunt being tossed around as a good counter - I assume because of all the flying and rend immunity.

You assume correct, Nighthaunt mechanically counter our fly high ability pretty hard when they get to close. 

On the other hand they lack the damage to really hurt us, so I guess thats a game one has to play out. 

I think the hardest match ups in general will be multiple cheap hordes, because our strength is to blast one target/flank at a time. But nobody really plays such lists, at least not in my local area.

 

Those top tier lists always use a kind of deathstar unit and smaller, less important chaff units that cant really threaten our superior defense. 

And those deathstar units cant make it into combat t1 because of screening/ deploying on the far side of the board (thats why having far more drops can be an advantage too*)

I will try to arrange a game against a strong OBR army next week, and I also know a good CoS player, so I‘ll try to make those experiences asap. But in my experience, and thats why I get tilted by people always talking about meta and tier lists, most games are winnable if you know the opponents game plan and roll better. 

Saying XY cant compete with Z is way too drastic imo. 

 

*Before fly high we had to force our opponent to go first. Now it doesnt matter because we can just go 24+“ away and kill a hero or 2 with our cannons. It always depends on the enemies list/ threat range, thats because I cant just simply „write how I beat those top tiers“. Its far more complex and situational than that. 

 

Edit: Just for general interest. I killed about 10 Chaos warriors with -1 to hit, 4+ rerollable in one turn. Thats 20 Wounds. 

Imagine shooting a mortek guard without -1 to hit and without rerolling saves (as its shooting). Thats why OBR dont impress me that much as a „top tier“ army. 

Also their catapults will have a hard time damaging our keytargets (3+/4+ save with potential rerolls)

Edited January 13, 2020 by Phasteon

[mikethefish]

12 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++
 

Quick warning as I appreciate this is a new book - @Phasteon & @Eevika please stop bickering with each other. This forum is for everybody and we expect member to treat each other with respect. Any further behaviour similar to the last few posts you have added to this forum, will result in Warnings point being issued.

 

This would perhaps have been better dealt with with a PM.

[Cauthon]

34 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Whilst I generally agree with you, he does have his uses. His rerolls 1s to hit affect the sky vessel and all its garrison so it's more of a budget buy command trait. Throw him in a frigate/ironclad with 1 or 2 units and your saving multiple CP with just the 1 command ability. The reroll charge I'd never use as I wouldn't charge with a sky vessel or any KO unit that isnt Riggers/Wardens. His +1 to hit again affects the whole sky vessel and garrison. Whilst this may not seem like much with our CC output, every little helps if we are stuck in combat with bonegrinz, nighthaunt/other flying races like say deepkin, the change host that stops you from falling back, etc. The extra hitting power on his profile, another hero like an endrinmaster and just the crew and garrisons might break you out of these type of tar pits that we cant disengage from. The run and shoot maybe be useful if you want to get that ship within 9" so you can add some pistol fire (although I don't know if they can as it says the sky vessel can run and charge)  or still fire after inching towards and objective.

His melee itself is alright, it's the stand hero profile copied across in all books, he cant tackle a hero mounted combat monsters by himself but you should be stacking any odds in your favour to ensure he gets the right engagements.

Hes better than he was, hes not amazing or bad, I would personally run the endrinmaster in his dirigible suit if I wanted some combat over the admiral 

His reroll charge ability is on any KO unit fully within 12. So from the ship he can have a block of nearby wardens rerolling their (very important) charge roll. 

 

Also just for clarity, you can retreat/disengage from units that fly you just can’t do so and also shoot. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

 

5 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

His reroll charge ability is on any KO unit fully within 12. So from the ship he can have a block of nearby wardens rerolling their (very important) charge roll. 

 

Also just for clarity, you can retreat/disengage from units that fly you just can’t do so and also shoot. 

Yeah sorry I meant retreat and still shoot! My mistake on not being clear! Unless i have an objective that I could capture I would tend to stay in combat and still blaze away (and throw some kicks and punches in melee too) instead of retreating and not firing even if it means I risk the ship. Those type of armies are fairly quick so skipping a round of combat in exchange for not firing that unit and its occupants. 

I'll be using the admiral this weekend so I'll let us all know how it goes. I havent used him in a good long while as I only ran khemists and endrinmasters in the past, or admirals just to ignore battleshock.

[Gaz Taylor]

17 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

This would perhaps have been better dealt with with a PM.

I chose not to do this as a private message because I want to make it clear to all of you we want you to treat each other nice. I’m completely happy for you to disagree on things, just don’t call each other names or be nasty to each other. 

[Phasteon]

26 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I still have no idea what your point is other than that you like Arkanauts. 

November Mike was talking about how he wanted to try out vulkites to hold objectives. Your entire response was to claim that arkanauts are better, cheaper per model and 4+ base.  Those points are not wrong, but don't tell the full story. Vulkites ARE cheaper per wound and have the same save in combat.  People are looking at them as a unit that can be a tarpit, and they are noticably better at that than arkanauts.  

If you are looking for a unit to keep on an out of the way objective  and hold it, arkanauts seem like a really good choice. They are cheaper, have some longer range fire and are better vs shooting. 

If you want a bunch of dwarfs to take a big hit from a charging unit to give your Thunderers another turn or two of shooting then vulkites are worth looking at. 

My intent was not to be rude, I genuinely wasn't sure if you knew vulkites had 2 wounds. 

I play Fyreslayers myself and trust me, what wont kill 10 Vulkites will also not kill 10 arkanauts as they will have a 4+ rerollable if its that important. 

The TRUTH is that both units are probably equal as tarpit, while Arkanauts are cheaper and more reliable (at least wholly within 9“ of an objective) while Vulkites are beefier, so better against MWs. 

But why would you „ally“ in an equally effective unit when you could take a better unit by taking HGB with some support. 

The whole story is that when you just want a tarpit/ screen you are better off taking Arkanauts, at least with KO. 

 

Edit: Also Arkanauts have smaller bases which is imo an advantage. 

You can place a Khemist and Fumigator Thunderers behind them to make even range 2“ enemies -2 to hit your 90-180 pt unit with a 4+ rerollable. 

Which leaves Thunderers in close combat so they can counter with +1A +1 to hit on all their special weapons

(If you dont plan on putting them in a garrison but play them as objective holder those special weapons are SO good actually) 

Fyi: 1) 2 Thunderers with Cannons and +1 to hit / +1 A for being in combat deal ~ 4 dmg against 4+ Save. 

2) 10 Thunderers firing out of a garrison with rifles deal ~ 5 dmg against 4+ Save. 

 

1) Has potentially 8 other Thunderers left to shoot. 

I will definately get another box of Thunderers to build another 4 special weapons. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Phasteon

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Updated my Arkanaut companies! I made a apprentice navigator for each squad to go with captain as a type of unit guide (purely for fluff and aesthetics) then made some sky pikes (never used them before as I was a skyhook and volleygun guy myself) and finally built the last of my skyhooks!

The book has certainly kicked my hobby bug into gear! The pistols were fairly easy conversions if you guys are wondering how I did them. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Got to drill all the barrels out now.... grungni preserve my soul 🤣

[zilberfrid]

8 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Got to drill all the barrels out now.... grungni preserve my soul 🤣

First, a small ****** in the middle with a needle, then about twice its width with a hand drill (pin vise). It works quite quickly

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

First, a small ****** in the middle with a needle, then about twice its width with a hand drill (pin vise). It works quite quickly

Thanks for that advice Zilberfrid! I've been putting it off for 2 years haha best do it now🤣🤣

[5kaven5lave]

33 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I chose not to do this as a private message because I want to make it clear to all of you we want you to treat each other nice. I’m completely happy for you to disagree on things, just don’t call each other names or be nasty to each other. 

Justice must be done and be seen to be done. You’ve got my backing fwiw. 

[Asm00]

To the people saying flying units nerf our fly high ability.

I don't get it, re-deploying a unit that is in combat through an ability is not considered as being a retreat, so you could still shoot after.

The "not against flying units" only applies to the disengage special ability, which is separate from the fly high one.

 

Am I wrong ?

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, GDD said:

When you compare the mortarchs and Morathi being demigods versus Alarielle and Nagash I think it makes a point of how the AoS gods are gods not because they are invincible in combat -but because of the things they have wrought OUTSIDE the battlefield.

Every time one of the gods makes a move the whole setting changes to a degree. I think the fact that great heroes, monsters and demigods could kill them makes AoS feel more personal and grounded. The gods aren't outside the setting, they are a vital part of it.

It gives AoS a parallel to norse and greek mythology which I really like personally. 

 Can I just add GW also makes it a point that often it’s just a part of the gods that appear in the mortal realms and rarely the whole shebang. 

[5kaven5lave]

I think it’s the ‘Disengage’ that dictates whether we can still shoot after that retreat. 

[Gecktron]

22 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Updated my Arkanaut companies! I made a apprentice navigator for each squad to go with captain as a type of unit guide (purely for fluff and aesthetics) then made some sky pikes (never used them before as I was a skyhook and volleygun guy myself) and finally built the last of my skyhooks!

The book has certainly kicked my hobby bug into gear! The pistols were fairly easy conversions if you guys are wondering how I did them. 

I really like this idea! Looks great! 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

37 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

I play Fyreslayers myself and trust me, what wont kill 10 Vulkites will also not kill 10 arkanauts as they will have a 4+ rerollable if its that important. 

The TRUTH is that both units are probably equal as tarpit, while Arkanauts are cheaper and more reliable (at least wholly within 9“ of an objective) while Vulkites are beefier, so better against MWs. 

But why would you „ally“ in an equally effective unit when you could take a better unit by taking HGB with some support. 

The whole story is that when you just want a tarpit/ screen you are better off taking Arkanauts, at least with KO. 

 

Edit: Also Arkanauts have smaller bases which is imo an advantage. 

You can place a Khemist and Fumigator Thunderers behind them to make even range 2“ enemies -2 to hit your 90-180 pt unit with a 4+ rerollable. 

Which leaves Thunderers in close combat so they can counter with +1A +1 to hit on all their special weapons

(If you dont plan on putting them in a garrison but play them as objective holder those special weapons are SO good actually) 

Fyi: 1) 2 Thunderers with Cannons and +1 to hit / +1 A for being in combat deal ~ 4 dmg against 4+ Save. 

2) 10 Thunderers firing out of a garrison with rifles deal ~ 5 dmg against 4+ Save. 

 

1) Has potentially 8 other Thunderers left to shoot. 

I will definately get another box of Thunderers to build another 4 special weapons. 

I ordered 3 more boxes of thunderers this weekend for my LGS to arrive by this friday to go with my 10 already(the third box is to redo the special weapons on my first 5 thunderers as they currently have illegal weapons with 5 cannons... and then to use those 5 spare as crew men for my ironclad for aesthetics). I'm really loving the thunderers now this book and ive always preferred how they look model wise over arkanauts.

[Azamar]

1 hour ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Whilst I generally agree with you, he does have his uses. His rerolls 1s to hit affect the sky vessel and all its garrison so it's more of a budget buy command trait. Throw him in a frigate/ironclad with 1 or 2 units and your saving multiple CP with just the 1 command ability.

From the wording it looks like it only affects the sky vessel he’s embarked on unfortunately. 
 

I’d wondered about the point of that command ability as well, although the universal reroll 1s to hit is a matched play only thing, so I guess it makes a difference it open or narrative games. 
 

I still think the admiral is very useful I should add, for the reasons you and others have mentioned.

 

edit: I’ve just spotted that the proclaimer mask hailed only works for abilities on the admirals warscroll, so that gives that particular ability a reason to be there.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Azamar