AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Endrinriggers still enjoy advantage in damage and range in shooting, deal slightly more damage in melee (though with less attacks they are more swingy). And when you take into account champions, the difference in damage in melee is more pronounced (with more riggers advantage).

I’ve fielded 6 man riggers many times and since skywardens dripped in points in the ghb 9 skywardens have been on my mind a lot. The extra range is such a boon. Getting more attacks in, getting them to the right places, striking over a screen. 
have to play them first of course to judge, but I wouldn’t be surprised if skywardens will win it in the end. (And of course in the barak zon Port)

1 hour ago, Lord Panther said:

That's a cool idea. Maybe use the rest of Thundrik's Profiteers as a landing party.

 

I always thought the Ryza ruins would be good for that. They look a bit more dwarfish than the sector mechanicus ones.

 

 

 

Yeah thundrik will give you plenty of parts. 
regarding the ruins. I do like them but shouldn’t the ironclad be busting through the enemies hometown  but seriously those kits will work brilliantly.

I’m building a classic ruined city table, inspired by ‘bone desert’. In which some morhnar do morhnar things. So I’m anchoring my KO and mortal Slaanesh to that terrain through the bases. On what table do you play?

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Honestly I feel like gw decided that the way to get people to play ships is to make everything not a ship bad. Considering all the ways gw has been adding extra attacks, fighting twice, mortal wound recursions, and other thing that sort of break the game, the loss of those same mechanics in KO, that was already weak, feels kinda bad

 

an army of 10 gunhaulers isn’t particularly more compelling than like 100 arkanauts were 

 

i think ‘break the game’ is key in this post. There is no easy broken win button build in this book (with what we know and without playtesting). But honestly it seems like a great book unless your hope was for an easy op build to win all the tournaments. But then you’ll always be disappointment 
I’d have the rest toned down rather than a Cold War style, every book raising that bar. Super unhealthy for the game. 
if I have to guess this army will be 3-2 or 2-3 on average and good players going 4-1 as long as there Slaanesh style nonsense about. Better if the brokenness is fixed. So many options and utilities to play the objectives. 

[Reuben Parker]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

Honestly I feel like gw decided that the way to get people to play ships is to make everything not a ship bad. Considering all the ways gw has been adding extra attacks, fighting twice, mortal wound recursions, and other thing that sort of break the game, the loss of those same mechanics in KO, that was already weak, feels kinda bad

 

an army of 10 gunhaulers isn’t particularly more compelling than like 100 arkanauts were 

 

Army wide 4+ or better save now, army wide access to triumphs (with most units getting them unless MSU balloons / thunderers). The ships also on the whole have had their damage output around doubled. Characters are on the whole good. Ark Company are very good screens and maybe ok in a horde role as well but needs testing. Teleporting of ships, access to an endless spell (wondering if it’s worth having purple sun in a bottle)  

Theres so many good things in this book. Flip side I understand that people may not be happy that a lot of the previous focus is gone so it’s wasted monetary and hobby investment. However huge blobs plus khemist was never that fluffy.

I don’t think KO need fight twice etc. screens, 3+ saves in cover re rollable can keep KO in the game whilst they have a steady 40-50 dmg a turn with rend. I feel this book is more conducive to combined arms style builds than before. Melee armies should have far higher damage potential for the same points compared to shooting as its hard to bring melee damage to where you need it. 

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

I’ve seen positive and negative reviews from y’all on the KO so I decided I’d give my opinion as someone who doesn’t collect them but will in the future (as a grotbag scuttler conversion army but still, rules are rules)

someone said a keeper of secrets can kill the ironclad in one round? Like what?!? 3 up 18 wounds with a rerollable for one phase is not getting killed without several phases of combat! 

Heres my thoughts: ships are amazing, just by disengaging and shooting with ships alone you are halving a melee armies damage on you, the 9 inch weapons for garrison units sucks tho :(. Aether gold is a huge plus, sad that you get a minus 1 to battleshock but them the breaks, I’ve had games where my triumph won me a key combat or objective. It’s blowing my mind that I could do this 5 times a game.

thoughts on infantry: basic flying dwarves feel great right now, 9 pts per 4 up wound with rerolls once per game makes them as tough as ardboys most of the time, and for 1 key combat they become tougher then kurnoth hunters. Just wow for a battle line objective grabbing unit. I’m in love 😍 

the big gun dwarves: I believe the only way to add decent fire power on a deepstrike. With rerolls to save to survive initial charges their rules outside of ships make me excited to use them once the ship goes down.  Also when combined with how shooting and retreating works with the army basically makes us have two damage phases per round while the opponent has 1 (we get to shoot, they charge, we both attack, then we retreat and repeat, again denying the opponent the ability to fight on our turn) this is Essentially always strikes first for any army that focuses on range, and we don’t care too much about debuffs in melee as that’s not our forte.

its also hilarious to think of some of our characters in garrison. Imagine putting an admiral in a ironclad with a scary weapon do deter charging. I believe he’s at a 3 up regularly so basically becomes a 2 up (possibly rerolling) at negative 1 to hit melee monster. Not as damaging as other melee leaders but a lot harder to kill. The ogor charge ironclad “mount trait” could make for a lolzy melee commander haha

im not too focused on balloon boys as they aren’t the part of the army I like, but for infantry and boats I am more then happy with what turned out

 

[Rachmani]

So far I‘m leaning towards Urbaz and something along the lines of an ironclad, 2 gunhaulers, a frigate, some arkanauts, some thunderers, an admiral & the new rigger guy. A few ballon boys & that‘s it. Navigator maybe. Some dispell attempt might be worth it.

Probably won‘t match pointwise, but I like the composition.

[Reuben Parker]

4 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I’ve seen positive and negative reviews from y’all on the KO so I decided I’d give my opinion as someone who doesn’t collect them but will in the future (as a grotbag scuttler conversion army but still, rules are rules)

someone said a keeper of secrets can kill the ironclad in one round? Like what?!? 3 up 18 wounds with a rerollable for one phase is not getting killed without several phases of combat! 

Heres my thoughts: ships are amazing, just by disengaging and shooting with ships alone you are halving a melee armies damage on you, the 9 inch weapons for garrison units sucks tho :(. Aether gold is a huge plus, sad that you get a minus 1 to battleshock but them the breaks, I’ve had games where my triumph won me a key combat or objective. It’s blowing my mind that I could do this 5 times a game.

thoughts on infantry: basic flying dwarves feel great right now, 9 pts per 4 up wound with rerolls once per game makes them as tough as ardboys most of the time, and for 1 key combat they become tougher then kurnoth hunters. Just wow for a battle line objective grabbing unit. I’m in love 😍 

the big gun dwarves: I believe the only way to add decent fire power on a deepstrike. With rerolls to save to survive initial charges their rules outside of ships make me excited to use them once the ship goes down.  Also when combined with how shooting and retreating works with the army basically makes us have two damage phases per round while the opponent has 1 (we get to shoot, they charge, we both attack, then we retreat and repeat, again denying the opponent the ability to fight on our turn) this is Essentially always strikes first for any army that focuses on range, and we don’t care too much about debuffs in melee as that’s not our forte.

its also hilarious to think of some of our characters in garrison. Imagine putting an admiral in a ironclad with a scary weapon do deter charging. I believe he’s at a 3 up regularly so basically becomes a 2 up (possibly rerolling) at negative 1 to hit melee monster. Not as damaging as other melee leaders but a lot harder to kill. The ogor charge ironclad “mount trait” could make for a lolzy melee commander haha

im not too focused on balloon boys as they aren’t the part of the army I like, but for infantry and boats I am more then happy with what turned out

 

Gold is once per phase not round   it will be easy to build lists with 10+ gold in it, prepare for your mind to be double blown!

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

Just now, Reuben Parker said:

Gold is once per phase not round   it will be easy to build lists with 10+ gold in it, prepare for your mind to be double blown!

10 TIMES?!?

retreat and shooting... rerolls up to 10 times... I need to sit down lol

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

Also constant damage 6 guns against support heroes sounds hilarious. Rerolls to hit to make the necromancer ****** his pants

actually wait, just do rerolls to hit and delete a unit tbh

in think the big boat gets: the cannon, skyhook, 4d6 repeating shots, and another’s 4 shot weapon

thats an average of 20 shots, all at least damage 2 I believe (the 4d6 one might be damage 1) all at decent rend and 2 are haymakers. Constant damage 6 haymakers. Durthu wish his sword was constant lol

also unless I misheard our weapons don’t lose effectiveness as we take damage. A 1 wound iron clad is still sending smoke to any area of the table we please. 

[Stormrage89]

I could be very wrong on this, but to me it seems the main thing your going to use your gold for is re rolling armor saves. (unless your opponent has -2 rend) This seems like the most efficient way of using it to me. Army wide 4+ minimum saves is great, combine that with the gold for that first round a heavy unit charges you and your probably going to be able to fire back with plenty of power the following round.  Like i said though i could be very wrong, i know gold can be used for all sorts of things, but this seems like the best use for it. 

Let me know what you think. 

[Reuben Parker]

Yeah re roll saves in a vacuum seems like the best but as it’s once per phase need to pick and choose so still buffing some hit re rolls at times maybe worth it just to use the gold up. 

[Stormrage89]

48 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Also constant damage 6 guns against support heroes sounds hilarious. Rerolls to hit to make the necromancer ****** his pants

actually wait, just do rerolls to hit and delete a unit tbh

in think the big boat gets: the cannon, skyhook, 4d6 repeating shots, and another’s 4 shot weapon

thats an average of 20 shots, all at least damage 2 I believe (the 4d6 one might be damage 1) all at decent rend and 2 are haymakers. Constant damage 6 haymakers. Durthu wish his sword was constant lol

also unless I misheard our weapons don’t lose effectiveness as we take damage. A 1 wound iron clad is still sending smoke to any area of the table we please. 

Well, the Ironclad always has: 

Torpedoes (24", A4, 4+, 3+ -1R, D3 Dam)

Carbines (12" A8, 3+, 3+, -1R, 2 Dam) which is awesome,

The carbines are a constant 8 all the time now, i did not notice that the first time around, so that's 12 very good shots. after that its a mater of what are you taking with it?

Great Volley Canon (18" A4d6, 3+, 3+, -1R, 1 Dam) that's an average of 14 shots a turn with it.

The Great sky (24" A6, 3+, 3+, -1R, 2 Dam) or (30" A1, 3+, 2+, -2R, 6 Dam)

Great Skyhook (24" A1, 3+, 2+, -2R, 6 Dam) with +2 charge all the time.

For me, I kinda feel like the Great Volley Cannon is the winner for how consistently good it is. but the canon can be good depending on how much armor your opponent has or how far away the thing you want to shoot at is. (but we have Fly High most of the time to get close) Great Skyhook is kinda a miss for me, it doesn't seem like we would want to charge much with the Ironclad, just keep shooting until something charges us then disengage.  i guess we could bog stuff down with it?

Also it has whatever shooting is garrisoned in it. but up to you guys on how much stuff you put in there. 

The only thing i don't like about the ironclad is how sharp the movement falls off as soon as you go over 15 models. I totally understand it loosing Fly High, but having the models movement seems very steep. Seems like the movement could have been - 2, -3 or not kick in until your at 21 or something. 

All and all i love the new Ironclad, now i just need to spend the 100+ hours painting the thing.  

Edit: Just noticed the 3rd Great  Endrinworks for the Ironclad, it gets rid of the 16 model movement penalties!!! that seems huge to me. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Stormrage89

[Stormrage89]

26 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Yeah re roll saves in a vacuum seems like the best but as it’s once per phase need to pick and choose so still buffing some hit re rolls at times maybe worth it just to use the gold up. 

did i miss read something? i thought you only get 1 gold for the entire game. I know there are other ways to get more gold depending on what Skyport you pick and hero selection. But wouldn't it be better to save it for melee armor saves in a lot of situations.   (obviously it depends on the situation, but still)

[Reuben Parker]

6 minutes ago, Stormrage89 said:

did i miss read something? i thought you only get 1 gold for the entire game. I know there are other ways to get more gold depending on what Skyport you pick and hero selection. But wouldn't it be better to save it for melee armor saves in a lot of situations.   (obviously it depends on the situation, but still)

No it’s every hero, ship and 10 model unit gets a share of gold (and you can add more through some choices). 

[Stormrage89]

Another question: Spell in a bottle.

I have pretty much no experience with endless spells to the point i don't even know what most of them do. 

Anyone have any good ideas of what to take here? i normally like spells that can buff or debuff, as apposed to ones that just do outright damage. Are there any Endless spells i should look into?

Thanks in advance for the help. 

[Stormrage89]

5 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

No it’s every hero, ship and 10 model unit gets a share of gold (and you can add more through some choices). 

Ok, just checking, thanks!

[madmac]

I laughed when I double checked the new ironclad profile and realized that outside of it's movement, the new damage table only reduces melee damage. Full shooting damage, as long as it's alive. Also yeah, the increased capacity seems like a no-brainer pick unless you have a specific strat in mind, like the aforementioned charging Ironclad stuffed full of melee heroes.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

30 minutes ago, Stormrage89 said:

Another question: Spell in a bottle.

I have pretty much no experience with endless spells to the point i don't even know what most of them do. 

Anyone have any good ideas of what to take here? i normally like spells that can buff or debuff, as apposed to ones that just do outright damage. Are there any Endless spells i should look into?

Thanks in advance for the help. 

As for right now I would say the best bets are:

cogs for melee centric lists, buffs your opponents too so be careful!

geminids for de buffing enemies and very good damage (2d3 if both hit a unit)

jaws for a hard to dispel offensive spell (but kinda meh to me at least)

land purple sun, for potential scariness. It’s not consistent but a purple sun is harmful enough to make an enemy think twice about staying around it

walls (gravetide and prismatic) can block off enemy foot soldiers while we fly over to get objectives

maelstrom for anti magic! Gives a dispell per enemy wizard in range

 

the other regular spells are too easy for the opponent to remove (and I believe the relic is one use only ) or don’t provide enough bang for the buck

for faction specific ones I’d look at:

the new tzeentch one with two burning greater daemon heads, amazing for wizard removal, and unlikely to hurt us back as much as we don’t have wizards!

daemon rift (S2D) another anti caster one, does d3 plus 1 for every wizard or endless spell nearby, can be potentially super scary against casters but can effect anything with that damage as the wizards only have to be nearby, as opposed to the above where they have to be the target

razorwing flock (beasts of chaos) it has a different name actually but I can’t remember, it’s the flock of birds! Gives minus 2 to bravery to units, very good to support an alpha strike against armies that don’t have fearless auras or don’t be have command abilities in range.  But is kinda weak in my mind

warp lightning vortex (skaven) very powerful board control, a few turns of this can devastate some armies

 

i prolly missed a bunch of useful ones! 

 

 

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

@madmac “drive me closer so I can hit them with my hammer!”

[Stormrage89]

Thanks TheadTheOgorSlayer, That's exactly what i was looking for, i very much appreciate it man. Have a great day!

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

Speaking of spell in a bottle, it appears geminids specify melee weapons for one of its debuffs! I think it will be the best choice of the malign sorcery endless spells

im doing research on the faction specific ones right now. The issue with a lot of them is they either effect certain models or don’t effect specific models so aren’t no as universally effective as malign sorcery. 

I also don’t own the new set of spells but I do know they provide very good movement shenanigans, however I’m unsure we need those

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

Army wide 4+ or better save now, army wide access to triumphs (with most units getting them unless MSU balloons / thunderers). The ships also on the whole have had their damage output around doubled. Characters are on the whole good. Ark Company are very good screens and maybe ok in a horde role as well but needs testing. Teleporting of ships, access to an endless spell (wondering if it’s worth having purple sun in a bottle)  

Theres so many good things in this book. Flip side I understand that people may not be happy that a lot of the previous focus is gone so it’s wasted monetary and hobby investment. However huge blobs plus khemist was never that fluffy.

I don’t think KO need fight twice etc. screens, 3+ saves in cover re rollable can keep KO in the game whilst they have a steady 40-50 dmg a turn with rend. I feel this book is more conducive to combined arms style builds than before. Melee armies should have far higher damage potential for the same points compared to shooting as its hard to bring melee damage to where you need it. 

The problem is that it really isn't that hard to bring melee to bear. Almost every army in AoS is a first turn charge threat. Like, OBR are one of the few that don't have that just casually sprinkled in. Every other remotely good army in the game almost trivially ignores distance with their speed and has the hitting power to clear most screens in a turn (OBR are good in that they can't be cleared in a turn without invest too much in defense.) So you get one turn of shooting before your shooting is compromised, and likely dead. And KO's ability to move doesn't seem to compensate for that as most armies will still catch them, or you move too far (with the fly high) to have an effect either shooting or on objectives and thus still lose.

 

Like, CoS Shoot better, have mobile assets, and teleport cheese too with the empowered bridge. What recommends KO over this? Other than enjoying the models more? That's my truest quandry. The heck is KO's place in the game? GW is just too scared of shooting. Unless it's a new hotness they want to sell models for. CoS almost feels like them making a mistake for actually being good at shooting. Like actually able to win games with shooting good. And they also still get good melee fighters (Though, since they don't effectively cheat with recursion, bounce back damage, or breaking the priority system, they're not really good enough, alas.) And good (the best even) magic. And good tough units too.

 

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

So far I‘m leaning towards Urbaz and something along the lines of an ironclad, 2 gunhaulers, a frigate, some arkanauts, some thunderers, an admiral & the new rigger guy. A few ballon boys & that‘s it. Navigator maybe. Some dispell attempt might be worth it.

Probably won‘t match pointwise, but I like the composition.

I feel the best way is an urbaz escort wing. And I want to say ironclad, but the frigate is probably better. Everyone has stars in their eyes about 6 damage. But at 510 points, a quarter of your army is a heavy investment for only 18 wounds. It's just too big a target and pure point efficiency, is actually worse shooting than the other two ships. You can print all the weapons you want on something, but if it is too many points, it isn't actually a good shooter.

 

 

GW just feels really timid with KO. They give them one strong ability but compensate by nerfing all the way they used to be played into the dirt and not really giving a replacement. Boats are better, but not better than arkanaut spam was.

[FatherTurin]

Since the warscrolls aren't updated yet, I’m going off assumptions here, but isn’t an Ironclad with 10 rifle armed thunderers, an admiral, and some endringger/Skywardens hitching along for a screen an abjectly terrifying prospect that can delete almost anything?

It can sit on the back table edge to avoid a first turn charge, then fly high and just straight up murder things.  It’s a LOT of points, to be sure, but my other army is Ogors, and it seems like everything from a full block of Gluttons to a FLoSH (without the ethereal amulet) dies to that HARD.

Sure, basic Arkanauts are looking pretty meh right now, but they are a 90 point unit of objective grabbers now, not a giant blob protecting a chemist and some skyhooks.  
 

Also, a Gunhauler yanking some balloon troops backfield to mess around with casters, support, or artillery seems awesome.

What I’m seeing so far is that KO are now pretty much the undisputed kings of movement in a game where movement is king.  We can apply pressure from unpredictable threat vectors and do it without spending any kind of resource or needing any kind of terrain or spell.  At the same time we have the tools to gimp some truly terrifying first turn or otherwise early game chargers (navigator vs FEC or Maw Krushas), drop a comet on someone’s head with a Khemist, shoot the enemy in the face, and all while the Arkanaut company are sitting on objectives with 4+ sometimes rerollable save.

In short, we are an army of distraction carnifexes, and so far I’m more than ok with that.

Edited January 5, 2020 by FatherTurin

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

@stratigo 

listen, I play an army called the legion of Azgorh. They have an infantry block designed for blocking enemy melee so my guns can shoot them to death. 

These armours troops are 9 points per model and have a 4 up save. I am positive that if I can block charges sufficiently enough to win games with them that KO can with arkanauts and boats.

Ive played bad armies. I played S2D before the new book and they are currently my largest collection (I may have more points in space marines it’s pretty close). I’ve played armies who get nearly nothing in support (Azgorh). Looking at this book I think the tools are there. Here is what’s I think

due to the fast nature of close combat armies we will need to focus on a few things to be competitive. 

1) for shooty armies our ability to continue to shoot and avoid being tied down is key. Things that keep us doing that will be priority for these lists. (Perhaps spell in a bottle emerald lifeswarm and some Endrinriggers or the character who heals)

2) for melee armies I think allies are the key. We have a port that allows us to take one of the best grindy anvils in the game. They have orange hair. Promise them a share of the gold and go win games 

3) for objectives arkanauts are decent battleline. We have lower damage then melee armies because they strike twice a round. Don’t let them do that. We have 9 inch guns so we should be able to put more models in a fight. Chokepoints are your friends. If we hit first we can beat a few people in a fair fight. But use of gold shares is key. 

4) mobility, our playstyle May evolve to one that doesn’t care about objectives in the early game. You could mess up some opponents that set up in a spread out formation. Figure out what flank you can devastate and fight a portion of your enemies army your whole army. Play like dark Eldar and never have a fair fight. You will need a plan for taking back objectives mid game but this can easily put an enemy in disarray and make them castle up in later games. A castled up enemy has less board presence. Try to play against that.

honestly the tools are there, this is a mid tier army from my first few looks. You won’t be beating the big boys but the mid tiers will be worried

 

[stus67]

thunderers with rifles only, or thunderers with the special weapons? I got 5 from the start collecting I'm building and I was wondering what would be better for right now.

[Forrix]

2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Speaking of spell in a bottle, it appears geminids specify melee weapons for one of its debuffs! I think it will be the best choice of the malign sorcery endless spells

im doing research on the faction specific ones right now. The issue with a lot of them is they either effect certain models or don’t effect specific models so aren’t no as universally effective as malign sorcery. 

I also don’t own the new set of spells but I do know they provide very good movement shenanigans, however I’m unsure we need those

I was thinking of the realmscape rupture from STD for the movement debuff and physically walling off without blocking LOS for shooting.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

2 minutes ago, Forrix said:

I was thinking of the realmscape rupture from STD for the movement debuff and physically walling off without blocking LOS for shooting.

You genius! I own S2D and somehow forgot that one! And it can hit several enemies. Definitely a solid choice for the one turn it’s used even if it Is dispelled right away.

personally after some thought I think the best ones are the  lifeswarm. It could be clutch to heal to fly high or retreat wounds threshold. Warp Lightning is the best one for damage (hard to remove plus work space multiple times a round) and your suggestion is also an incredible add on. Perhaps the best one in general due to our mobility. With an ironclad with the last word, you might get 3 different opportunities to shoot them before they even swing haha!

and oh boy am I excited for redeploying double turns. I’m thinking taking a one or 2 drop list if possible, the realmscape rupture, and taking second turn. 

Set up the spell, hit them from max range on a flank, if you get the double turn you shoot them again winning immediate board control on that flank, and if you don’t they most likely can’t charge if the endless spell hit correctly! Then shoot em again  

Let’s get this bread, I mean aether gold