AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[Malakithe]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:07 AM, Ulfast said:

I´m thinking to restart my fyreslayers. I´m looking forward to start with a new paint work, geting some extra models etc. Do you have any nice advice for me?

 

Second, do you think GW has forgotten us? Because I think they could do so many fun things with our faction. Like some cavalery, dwarf with molten lances on smaller lizards, perhaps some female miniatures operating some sort of warmachine, perhaps a avatar of Grimnir (huge dwarf slayer with a big axe roaming around), etc. Or what do you think? Are GW planing something for the future or will they let us rest for a while?

Everyone has forgotten Fyreslayers as a whole. If it wasnt for HB being the single best melee unit in the game the faction as a whole would be non-existent.

[Malakithe]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:00 PM, Joseph Mackay said:

I would prefer Fyreslayers, Dispossessed (splitting away from Cities Of Sigmar) and Kharadron Overlords remain seperate, however my wish for them to merge comes from a point of view that if gw aren’t going to bother expanding Fyreslayers then at least give them the other duardin to help them out.

there is so much potential for fyreslayers new models
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Chariots
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast packs (think Gryph Hound sized beasts)
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Calvary (think goat riders from Middle-earth)
-warmachines like a Fyreslayers version of the old Grudge Throwers/Flame Cannons etc
-Vulkite Berzerkers with great axes (like the one guy from The Chosen Axes have)
-more heroes on Magmadroths, like the Runemaster who was listed in one of the Realmgate Wars narrative battalions 

from a rules point of view
-Runefather and Runemaster become Unique. The lore states quite clearly that there’s only ever one per Lodge. Either make them unique or disallow the Lodge rules when taking multiples.
-remove Battleline from Hearthguard Berzerkers and Auric Hearthguard. In the lore, they come across as more of a elite bodyguard unit than the core of an army.
-Vulkite Berzerkers get the old Berzerker Fury rule back, either on the warscroll or as an allegiance ability for the whole army. The damage save fyreslayers get is explained in the lore as coming from the Ur-Gold runes, which all fyreslayers have, so why do only some units have a damage save?
-Ur-Gold mechanic like Aetherquarts/Aethergold.
-Battlesmith gets an innate ignore spells on a 4+ wholly within 18” rather than needing an artefact, the rule would continue to apply from a unit using None Shall Defile The Icon rule. We need anti-magic and spending valuable artefact slots on our only defence against it is feels bad

Pretty much nailed it all right there.

The save from Ur-gold runes has bothered me even from their release. The rules are completely contradicting to the lore. All Fyreslayers have the runes but none of the heros have the save and only 1-2 units ever had the save. Made no sense at their release and it still doesnt. Easy solution: Make the save like bonesplitterz. Faction wide 6++ with the ability to enhance via other sources like warscroll abilities or Runsmiters 

[Ulfast]

Its very intersting that GW release so many AoS factions(which I love) but has seem to forgot some of original factions, like fyreslayers, sylvanth and ironjaws. All iconic for AoS but sadly not geting anything new(except for some endless spells). This is not critisms but rather for GW to see a window for selling more miniatures. They should do classic revival of the orginal factions! Would be cool too. While Nagash and everyone has been waring, the old factions is back with new weapons and units!

 

 

[Clan's Cynic]

11 hours ago, Ulfast said:

Its very intersting that GW release so many AoS factions(which I love) but has seem to forgot some of original factions, like fyreslayers, sylvanth and ironjaws. All iconic for AoS but sadly not geting anything new(except for some endless spells). This is not critisms but rather for GW to see a window for selling more miniatures. They should do classic revival of the orginal factions! Would be cool too. While Nagash and everyone has been waring, the old factions is back with new weapons and units!

 

 

Sylvaneth being expanded by Kurnothi seems a case of When and not If.

Ironjawz feel like they're set for something in 3.0 with Excelsis being built up.

Only Fyreslayers seem to have sweet ****** all suggesting they've a future.

[Joseph Mackay]

I think Fyreslayers are in a situation of a self-fulfilling prophecy sadly. Army isn’t popular, army doesn’t sell, army doesn’t sell because it’s too small and no verity. Because army doesn’t sell gw don’t release more (even though that’s what would increase sales).

my strong opinion is this: if gw don’t want to release new fyreslayers then combine them with Dispossessed and Kharadron in a mixed Duardin book (like Orruk Warclans) so they at least have more options. Keep the separate allegiance abilities for each while adding a 4th combined faction allegiance too (like how Orruk Warclans still has Bonesplittas and Ironjawz separate with a 3rd combined allegiance). To the people complaining about Kharadron should remain its own book, you guys don’t have a lot of units to choose from either. The combined book wouldn’t take anything away from you and doesn’t prevent you getting new stuff later on either, it would simply provide all 3 Duardin factions with more choices.

in regards to the fact we haven’t received a Battleforce box, I’m disappointed about that too but realistically what can they put in it? In nz they’re about $330ish, the start collecting is $195, Hearthguard are $85 and heroes are $60 (Vulkites are $115 but I can almost guarantee that if Vulkites are in the battleforce it’s because they’ve included a start collecting box anyway). So the question is what really can they do? They aren’t going to load the box with Hearthguard and a hero, so I reckon we’d be looking at a Start Collecting box, 2 boxes of Hearthguard (maybe, I think 1 is more likely) and a hero (Battlesmith or Auric Runemaster)

[Doko]

We have 1 unit and magmadroth in our sc. Total fyreslayers units are 3

Kharadrons have 3 units and one hero in their sc. Total khara units are 6

So in our sc we have the 25% of our units and ko have the 50%(or 65% if we take in count that they can build the ballon as two versions)

But ko have got two battleforced and one dual box.

Even the dual box is almost 100% the same units that the start collecting.

Very posible have a battleforce with:

Magmadroth

10 hearthguard berzerkers

10 hearthguard shooting

Yes same box but diferent unit,and many battleforce repeat same box but showed as diferent builds.

 Also with the runesmitter on foot and runeson on foot from the magma kit we have a great battleforce is diverse.

Yes it havent battleline but this last ko box neither had any company.

I have only 1500 points(really only 1250 or so but with a runemaster proxy and batallion it get to 1500) and i need bring gotrek to play 2000

Im waiting for any battleforce or other box with any unit to get it to 2000. Or new units but that seem imposible.

And also i would be very happy to have a joined tome,i have dispossesed and fyreslayers and this would be a great chance to get some khara 

 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Been looking at some of the other smaller factions I have experience with, and while I acknowledge my bias for Cavalry, it really does stick out as the most obvious "gap" in the line.

Clearly Fyreslayers aren't lacking for HERO options, having as many if not more options than FEC, Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz and filling most of the same roles (if you're willing to switch Prayers for Spells, and arguably as there is no unbind option against ours so...) absent FEC's summoning and that is less a line size issue than a faction mechanics issue.

Looking at MONSTERS certainly we can debate how well ye olde Magmadroth stacks up to these comparison but we have it (and three rider options...) and thus we check the same box that FEC checks with their Royal Terrorgheist & Zombie Dragons, Ironjawz checks with their Mawkrusha and Bonesplitterz used to check with the Rogue Idol.

Similarly looking for a (relatively) Big Blob Battleline we can throw 30x Vulkite Berzerkers out there to match up against FEC's Crypt Ghouls, Ironjawz's Ardboyz or Bonesplitterz Savage Orruks.

Looking for something a little more hard hitting and we can put out our Hearthguard Berzerkers up against the best of any faction, nonetheless FEC's Crypt Horrors, Ironjawz's Brutes or Bonesplitterz... well actually Bonesplitterz don't have this tool really being an even smaller faction than Fyreslayers until they got lumped in with the bigger armored cousins.

But them we turn to the unit that rounds out these other factions and for Fyreslayers we get Auric Hearthguard.  Again, I'm on record of loving the look of the our dragon axe flamethrowers.  And it is nice to get some shooting in that is NOT dependent on the # of models in the target unit (looking at you side eye Mr. Magmadroth) or what I can only figure is dice rolling exercise for your wrist because nothing ever seems to come of it (looking at you throwing axes...).  Yet, looking at these other armies it is clear that they just aren't what Fyreslayers is missing.

Rounding out FEC we see the Crypt Flayers,  which while not mounted have all the movement of Cav.  Ironjawz get Goregruntas.  Bonesplitterz get their Boars.  So yeah, even when looking at other very small unit option factions this gap is an obvious start point for GW if they're looking to fill in the line.

Again, not exactly revelatory but of course it gets to the point that even though say, Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz had most of the tools they were still combined to have even more tools.  I didn't put Gutbusters or Beastclaw Raiders in the above but there is an example of armies that were missing a few tools but gained them by getting together.  So while it would be great if GW just, you know, filled in the line with some Cav and maybe a couple other variations if we're being greedy, I lean into believing Duardin will go the way of Orruks and Ogors and see a family reunion.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Doko]

We have many old world heroes back:tyrion,teclis,eltharion,malekith,morathi,allarielle,durthu,sigval etc

 

So why cant dwarfs have some old heroe back??? Umgrim seems 100% the perfect option,he is rebornt because he become a god when he got the fyre wind in end times(the same reason that tyrion have been rebirthed in his tome).

Also he is a half dispossesed and a fyreslayer and he got the fyre wind so is great if he come back as the avatar of fyre,or grimnir and he is the hero that unite dispossesed and fyreslayers in a new tome.

 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

The Fyreslayers list I had created was 4-0 in the tournament.  The list I was piloting against it was 0-4.

But I had a theory...

And I truly believed that this was my best chance in the tournament at “Ultimate Bragging Right” where I beat my opponent with my list and then flipped the tables and beat him with his own.  Key to this belief was the Battleplan.  Scorched Earth starts with 8 objectives which is a lot to cover with Fyreslayers since they work best when they’re clustered together.  In the first go round I’d pulled out the victory but it had been a close call as I’d let myself get stretched to where my key Hearthguard Berzerkers had gotten out of the buff bubbles and exposed to counter attack.

As I read through the war scrolls, battalion buffs, faction abilities, etc. I was convinced that the Bonesplitterz had the ability to stretch that Fyreslayers list even further, probably to a breaking point.

But it didn’t start off well.  Both lists were six drops so the first roll would determine who got to pick who went first.  That meant I’d have to make my pre-R1 Bonesplitterz 5” moves before I knew whether I was going first or second.  I caught a break though when my opponent placed the Hearthguard Berzerkers down early so that I knew which flank (East in this case) I would be chaffing with Arrowboys and Savage Orruks deep in the backfield and which side I would be overloading with the Rogue Idol and all my WIZARDS to hopefully capture and burn objectives in my opponents backfield.   Sticking the Savage Big Stabbas, viewed by my opponent as key to the list they’d built, in the middle was the best distraction I could come up with as my best hope was to throw them into the Runefather in Magmadroth for their bonus against MONSTERS but I’d accepted that they might just be a speed bump, delaying the HBs another turn before they could get into my territory and start burning my objectives.

Having trouble uploading photos for the moment but to summarize in the East, spread across two objectives I had the 10x Savage Orruks.  Behind them I had the Savage Big Boss from their battalion then the 20x Arrowboys.  Across from them was the 20x HBs  & Battlesmith, flanked by the Runefather on Magmadroth beside the Forge with the Runemaster behind the Forge.  In the middle I had the other 10x Arrowboys screening the 2 units of 2x Savage Big Stabbas and the Battalion Big Boss.  All the way over to the West I had the Rogue Idol and my three Wizards.  Across from them was the Runesmiter on Magmadroth and both the 20x Vulkites w/shields & warpicks and behind them the 10x Vulkites with paired axes.  My opponent had put the 5x Auric Hearthguard in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on Foot.  

So my opponent had already stretched their initial deployment more than I had.  I used my pre-moves to move up the Rogue Idol and Wizards and to reposition the 10x Arrowboys to backfill the gap they’d opened a little bit.  When my opponent had me go first I buffed up the Rogue Idol and charged him and the Maniak Weirdnob forward into the Runesmiter on Magmadroth and the 20x Vulkites.  The Rogue Idol largely focused on the Vulkites and did enough damage to kill 11.  I’d come in at the far edge to limit Berzerk Fury as much as possible and between that and some great Saves Pebbles was still feeling good at end of R1.1 even if not much damage had yet been done to the Magmadroth.  Was surprised when my opponent didn’t CP it but the rest fled from battle shock.

On their turn my opponent used the Vostarg move buffs to get the HBs and Battlesmith to the middle of the table.  My Savage Big Stabbas had failed their charge into the Runefather on Magmadroth so they were able to advance a little farther with a charge but sustaining the 12” bubble limited them just enough on the first pile in.  In the West they popped the Grand Ritual and charged the 10x Vulkites into Pebbles hoping the Saves would preserve them.  The West fought to a standstill and my Savage Big Stabbas fell but at least took some HBs with them.  

I got lucky and won initiative despite a low roll.  (This somehow is very rare for me.  I once went to whole games without winning an initiative, and have even lost ties on 6s so was shocked but grateful to have this one go my way. )  I was able to clear out the West and burn one of the objectives but in the East all I did was plink away at the HBs (the 100+ shots with the battalion ability to shoot in Hero Phase only translated into a few wounds but I was happy for what I could get) and a little repositioning of the Savage Orruks meant that the HBs should only be able to charge and pile into them, preventing a follow through pile in fro  Lords of the Lodge into the Arrowboys.

My opponent would get into the Savage Orruks and bring the units out of the tunnel in the East as well to charge the other objective in that half, but I would finish with enough models around each to just barely hold onto the objective for one more turn.  And I’d somehow manage to again win the initiative.  The Rogue Idol would clear the Runefather off the other Western objective but a flying Maniak Weirdbob only managed to race across the battlefield to get into a pillow fight in the East with the Runemaster.

By their turn my opponent was looking at a slightly better than half strength unit of HBs (11x) that would clear off the remaining Arrowboys and take one of the Eastern objectives.  The Battlesmith was hanging on with 1 Wound left, vulnerable to any shooting or magic in my turn.  In their own territory all they had left was the Runemaster and the Runesmiter on foot.  I had the mobility and power to take the rest of the objectives in their territory, and with the HERO bonus.  They had the power but likely lacked the mobility, especially if I was able to move the remaining Arrowboys out of Charge range, and might not have any HEROES left to garner bonus points.  In other words the VP gap I had already opened was more likely to expand in R4&5 than contract.  

With the concession “Ultimate Bragging Rights” were secure.

Even having cracked my own list though I still like it a lot.  There is a bit of an anvil without a hammer issue to using a single block of 20x HBs instead of two.  Positioned well though and you can try and force your opponent to break their hammer against it.  If your opponent declines then you’ve got to be a lot more creative.  If the Auric Hearthguard was larger could definitely see the virtue of putting them in the tunnel and popping them up to shoot a key unit (in this game they did snipe one of my Savage Big Bosses even at lower strength) but I think the Vulkites remain the better choice.  I can definitely see the appeal though of lists that use gyrocopter allies instead.

And this type of problem solving is appealing across the table as well.  As seen in another post above I really enjoyed trying to crack this list with Khorne Daemons.  Think I had the right idea but was too far behind on VP by the time I’d taken out the Battlesmith to take advantage.  Here a lot of patience and a very different play style that I normally use secured me the victory.  Fully acknowledge this isn’t the double 20x HB Hermdar list that is the actual source of most complaints but here’s at least some counter evidence to the argument that Fyreslayers are no fun to play against.  Two games in a row I’ve had a blast and can’t wait to try again with Mawtribes next week!

 

 

 

[Doko]

You used the alegiance with bonespliter to ignore the special save? With that the game is heavy favored for the orcs,without that is for dwarfs.

Glad read your reports are fun

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

You used the alegiance with bonespliter to ignore the special save? With that the game is heavy favored for the orcs,without that is for dwarfs

In building their Bonesplitterz list opponent had chosen to go without a sub-faction.  Given strength of Drakkfoot relative to both Mawtribes and Fyreslayers personally think this was a mistake and significant contributing factor to list having gone 0-4 until this match up as the generic CT not worth it and unlimited Artefact choice obviously less important when you’re choosing three...  

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Shoot the Heroes is so 2020.

In 2021 we eat them!

Gutbusters and Swifthawk Agents were the first two armies I bought when I made a second try at Age of Sigmar (first failed attempt had been in WFB days with the dwarves & goblins starter set).  Especially since Swifthawk Agents got squatted that means I’ve probably played more Ogors than anything else.  Thus while the list was very different from one I would’ve built when the tables flipped and it came time to pilot the Mawtribes list against my Fyreslayers list I felt reasonably comfortable.

I was actually okay when I lost the first roll as once I knew he would finish his set up first and choose priority I knew I could hold back on most of my deployment to see what he would do.  I did have to put the Mawpot out early, a clear tell in a list with a Butcher that he responded to by dropping the 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers across the table from it in the West.  That made it pretty clear that my best chances lay in the East and hopefully the center objective in Focal Points.

So I hoped that the Mawpot’s frontage and a screen of 2x Mournfang on either side would be enough to keep the Butcher alive for one turn when his 7nits would be in range of Voracious Maw.  The rest of my army went East with a unit of Ironguts not too far off center to go for the center objective if possible but all three Stonehorns (of the Frostlord, Huskard and Beastriders varieties) in front of the Eastern objective in my territory.  (The Icebrow Hunter and 2x Frost Sabres started in Ambush as per usual).

Sure enough Fyreslayers went first and used the extra R1 movement from Vostarg plus the Vostarg run& charge command trait to get across the board in the West.  The width of the Mawpot and the need to keep the units in a 12” bubble meant they could only go after one side of the Mournfang Pack, and at that only get a few models into combat.  (Though maybe some should’ve started trying to climb the Mawpot instead of going around it?  Maybe I’ll try that approach next time...) That and a few good Save Rolls meant that it took both pile ins to kill the Mournfang, preserving the Butcher.

The Runesmiter on foot had come out of the magmic tunnel in the center of my backfield line but the unit of 10x Vulkites that came with them failed their 9” charge and the CP reroll, leaving my three Stonehorns free to move in my turn.

In my turn, was able to get Voracious Maw off and boy oh boy was it hungry!!!  For those of you not familiar with arguably my favorite spell it does d3 Damage when it goes off, but then you roll d6 again and on a 4+ it is still hungry and takes another bite (for another d3).  Rinse and repeat until you fail a 4+ and it is satisfied or the target unit dies and the Maw is satisfied.  In this tournament we’d seen a lot of nibbling (1 bite) some snacking (2 bites) and even a couple light meals (3 bites).  In this match the Voracious Maw tucked in for a full meal going off four times.

So, as tempting as it was to go after the Hearthguard Berzerkers and as risky as it was with the Sworn Protector Auric Hearthguard there to eat wounds for the Battlesmith with 4 attempts enough Damage had gone through and stuck on him to kill the Battlesmith.  The Runefather was still there for the 4++ and Lords of the Lodge  but was farther East and in combat with the Ironguts so even after they decided not to defend the icon it was going to be tough for the HBs to stay in the bubble if they went any farther West.

Of course that was what I wanted so after the Hero Phase I Promptly ran the remaining Mournfang and Butcher Westward.  Figured they couldn’t ignore the Butcher after that (though the chances of it going off like that again were low...) so hoped to draw the HBs even further West.  Meanwhile my Stonehorns were able to rampage in the East and Center wracking up points.

When my opponent took the Butcher Bait in their turn they came out of the buff bubbles and thus were both weaker and, with only 4” moves left if they wanted to Charge, I could ignore them for a turn and mop up the rest of the issues in the West leaving us at the end of R2 essentially reversed with the Mawtribes now in control of the North and the Fyreslayers in the South.  Movement limitations meant I could set up the Charges I needed much easier than my opponent so R3 was mainly about me setting up the pins and knocking them down.

By end of R3 Mawtribes had an insurmountable VP lead and the match was conceded.

Again, learned a lot about the list and it’s strengths and limitations by playing against it three times.  It takes a lot of discipline to maintain those buff bubbles and it is difficult against armies with magic or shooting with good range to protect the key support Heroes.  But you do have some tools to do it if you stay patient in R1&2.

The obvious risk to patience even when it does work out is by R3+ your foot units aren’t going to be going very far unless your opponent is obliging with the charge opportunities.  That’s why in this list I think part of the patience is holding back the Magmadroths in the first two rounds.  Yes, their range makes them good for reaching out early but they just aren’t that resilient so if you really want them to shine you need to hold them for later rounds when maybe you can pick your battles a little better after hopefully your anvil has broken a few of your opponent’s hammers...  With the right Ur-gold Rune they might even do some real damage if they get to hit first.

That said, as much as I want to like Magmadroths having two attacks very limited against small units (the fyrestream missile attack and the lashing tail) just hamstrings these units).  Would love to see Magmadroths get an IDk-esque upgrade in a future BR tome...

Edited March 7, 2021 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Clan's Cynic]

Whilst the wisdom of the words "Never trust an Elf" can never be understated, what're peoples thoughts on potentially including Ellania and Ellathor?

[Doko]

Useless for us, because they can cast two spells but fyreslayers havent spells.

So it is wasted casting mystic shield.

[Joseph Mackay]

On 3/27/2021 at 6:09 PM, Doko said:

Useless for us, because they can cast two spells but fyreslayers havent spells.

So it is wasted casting mystic shield.

As an Ally they wouldn’t get access to the spells even if we had them

[Verminlord]

On 3/27/2021 at 12:09 AM, Doko said:

Useless for us, because they can cast two spells but fyreslayers havent spells.

So it is wasted casting mystic shield.

You ignoring endless spells?

Soulscream bridge could be interesting

Edited April 2, 2021 by Verminlord

[Verminlord]

Has anyone tried a Grimwrath spam list?

Does the Greyfyrd CA (all heros within 3 swing simultaneously) interact with the Grimnirs fury prayer (hero phase attack with a hero)? 

The trouble will obviously be getting them up the board.

Pic plus 6 Grimwrath and the flamespitter is my first mock up.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Verminlord

[Joseph Mackay]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:54 AM, Verminlord said:

Has anyone tried a Grimwrath spam list?

Does the Greyfyrd CA (all heros within 3 swing simultaneously) interact with the Grimnirs fury prayer (hero phase attack with a hero)? 

The trouble will obviously be getting them up the board.

Pic plus 6 Grimwrath and the flamespitter is my first mock up.

When the book came out and Grimwraths weren’t Leaders, I was toying around with the idea including the Greyfred command ability. I had about 10 Grimwraths in the list 😂 never actually got to play it though and I certainly wasn’t keen to go out and spend $600nz on 10 Grimwraths for it lol

[Verminlord]

28 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

When the book came out and Grimwraths weren’t Leaders, I was toying around with the idea including the Greyfred command ability. I had about 10 Grimwraths in the list 😂 never actually got to play it though and I certainly wasn’t keen to go out and spend $600nz on 10 Grimwraths for it lol

I love the official model, but if I were to build the list I would definitely be converting a bunch of them 😂

[Clan's Cynic]

Updated Grimwrath Berzerker and Doomseeker Warscrolls.

Grimwrath Berzerker is now 110pts, Doomseeker is 90pts, they went up and down 10pts respectively.

No other changes to the army.

[Doko]

Doomseeker is bad yet and grimwrath have been deleted,nerf in points and now we only can have one with the 5++.

Glad i never buy one

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Grimwrath such a great model but don’t get weakening the war scroll AND increasing the price.  Had just had a lot of fun running one in our last series but now just that much harder to justify fitting into a list.

[LordRhulak]

Yeah, Broken Realms was very dissappointing for Fyreslayers. I really want to play my Fyreslayers, but I can't bring myself to while the faction is so small. The fact that they nerfed the Grimwrath and didn't nerf Hearthguard while buffing Vulkites is, again, dissappointing. I honestly don't know what their goals were with the Fyreslayers changes. 

[Hannibal]

Why do you think the Grimwrath Berzerkers were nerfed?

 

Second, you could play a Grimwrath Berzerker heavy force once (Greyfyrd Lodge?) but now it seems to me that this is no longer possible due to the fact Grimwrath Berzerkers became heroes. Is this right?

 

Thanks!

[Doko]

They do the same damage than before(ranged do 0'4 damage that is the same than 0) 

Nerfed a 10% the cost

Now we cant have more than one with 5++

 

So where you see some positive there?