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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

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So got the full battle report up in Zoom League blog but thought I’d reach out to the more experienced Fyreslayer players out there on what I felt was my biggest missed opportunity - popping Berzerk Fury at the right moment.

Clearly getting hit by a super profile Skarbrand meant I was going to be losing a lot of models.  That I happened to have the -2 Rend Ur Gold Rune  going at that moment makes it all the more painful I forgot it was activated in the Combat Phase itself, instead of confusing it with the Runesmiter on Magmadroths eating Ur Gold in the Hero Phase.  Enough pain there that I am unlikely to forget again.

My question though is, in my next match vs Bonesplitterz I think it may be tougher to identify the right moment to activate.  Clearly if I can get the: into the Rogue Idol known as Pebbles it makes sense.  But the rest of the army?  Are the Savage Big Stabbas worth it?  They’re much better into Monsters so not sure how many they’ll kill but making sure I get rid of them may be worth it.  Doubt the 20x Arrowz can do enough in melee to merit it.  And 10x Savage Orruks may not hit hard enough either.

Thoughts?  Don’t want to forget it 2x in a row and will have plenty of choices against Mawtribes a week after but will admit only see that one target and not sure I can force that opportunity.

Edited by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

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@Beer & Pretzels Gamer

Bonesplitters are a tough one as they are basically a more aggressive version of Fyreslayers. They don't have a single unit like Bloodthirsters that spike so hard (Rogue Idol being their exception, but you noticed that). BUT, they have a LOT of potential buffs. If they bring their suite of mages, they can stack, like, 4 different exploding 6s abilities. That can be a LOT of attack spikes...  So if they stack those buffs, that is the unit worth popping the Vulkites for. If they spread the buffs around, there isn't much of a point. 

Props on the battle reports, it is cool to see how others are faring. Don't get many games myself, obviously, despite having a big and growing community around me. Gotta keep this part of the forum alive! lol

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6 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said:

BUT, they have a LOT of potential buffs. If they bring their suite of mages, they can stack, like, 4 different exploding 6s abilities. That can be a LOT of attack spikes...  So if they stack those buffs, that is the unit worth popping the Vulkites for. If they spread the buffs around, there isn't much of a point. 

Thanks for the advice.

My other big concern is playing Scorched Earth has me concerned about protecting enough of my own objectives while still contesting my opponent’s (all while retaining those buff bubbles...).  Saw Mawtribes struggle with that last match and they have more mobility than I do.  Gonna have to maximize “width” (having my bigger units potentially contesting two objectives) and any other shenanigans (e.g. Magic Tunneling) I think. 

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So I did get Berzerk Fury off into Pebbles the Rogue Idol...

ABB4E866-2937-4CB2-A101-17E055776C8A.jpeg.0794065989efd315ddba1044b4c99293.jpeg

Unfortunately it was with the unit of 10x Vulkite Berzerkers w/Paired Axes and they just didn’t have enough oomph to get through the defenses, doing a total of 4 Damage before they evaporated.

Triggered the 20x block when they went into a big mess of Arrowboyz, Savage Big Stabbas and a Savage Big Boss after a charge, thinking that it would be the most attacks they’d face AND they were w/out their shield Saves that turn.  But only got modest benefit from it as my opponent rolled cold.

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 Okay, so apparently had to learn the hard way about breaking my buff bubbles and just barely got away with it vs Bonesplitterz.  That won’t work against Mawtribes up next in Zoom League so hopefully I don’t make that mistake again.

As noted above did a little better with Berzerk Fury and just think Mawtribes a more target rich environment.  Have to be cognizant though that it is only Combat Phase so risk of model loss from Charge Damage must be accounted for.

Mawtribes also feels like a match where I will have to spend the Forge.  Given their movement I feel like this could be an R1 or even R2 event.  Unlike the Mawpot though no way to recharge so there’s a risk but if I’m at risk of a double turn from the go I’m debating whether I just need to go all in on defense as soon as I get a chance...

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In my first two games the Auric Runefather on Magmadroth had largely been there to give the Hearthguard Berzerker the run & charge Command Trait buff from Vostarg but otherwise hadn’t done much (ignominiously losing head-to-head against a defensively buffed Maniak Weirdnob last match).  His attack output hadn’t been even decent, not helped by bad rolls for his Axe, which brought decent damage output in theory with the Vostarg Artefact.

Finally got his moment to shine against Mawtribes.  First, we were playing Focal Points so he gave bonus VP when I got him up on the central objective.  But when a unit of Ironguts contested that objective he actually almost managed to wipe them out before they got a chance to activate, killing 3x and leaving the survivor with only 1 wound left.

The difference maker?  Had the enhanced Rune of Fury going so got the re-rolls and the extra attack.  The Mount’s attacks softened them up but the Latchkey Grand(Vos)axe finally went off forcing two saves at -2 Rend for 3 Damage each and one at 4 Damage for good measure.

F9E592CF-9D9C-4436-A7BE-F32A576CA416.jpeg.c02e3eb314c931f79efd899129b5ef03.jpeg

7AF95DC9-946F-40E1-94A9-EBCDD9B956EF.jpeg.8d9c0dee04ed539a4f2d46936b711e70.jpeg

As this was the first Fyreslayers unit I ever owned (bought as an ally for a big 8K+ total points blowout battle to end our gaming group’s first big narrative cycle) it was nice to finally see its output feel as impressive as the model looks.

 

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Too little, too late.

The tables have flipped in Zoom League so this time it was me trying to crack the Fyreslayers list with my opponent’s Khorne list.  Having seen his “hammer” break on my Hearthguard Anvil I had a plan.  Unfortunately Fyreslayers were just too good in the two rounds it took me to execute my plan and were helped by some failed charges,

I expected him to imitate my success in moving the Hearthguard Berzerkers with Battlesmith plus Bodyguards into the middle.  I even got lucky that the primary objective landed in the West so he couldn’t just camp on it if I made him go first like I had when it had fallen in Center first two rounds.  That forced him to bring the 20x Vulkites in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on foot out onto that objective R1.1.  He also ran his 10x Vulkites out onto the East objective.

Okay, stunk starting off down 7 VP but felt I was in a good position to claw back 5 as I started the first part of my plan.  FURY and two units of 5x Flesh Hounds went to the West.  FURY was even able to snipe the Runesmiter in the Shooting Phase with his whip and all three of them made their charges so I was hopeful that I would be able to clear enough to force a painful battle shock he couldn’t CP without a HERO in range.

Meanwhile RAGE and 5x Flesh Hounds headed East to clear of the Vulkites.  Unfortunately despite rerolls, they failed their charges.

867B0440-1A73-4F78-9D9E-97D53DD9CE24.jpeg.20a4a3d87bcd7475d10494f73d18c12d.jpeg28E26F3F-7CCB-497D-9BDD-C88C6C6C50BB.jpeg.f99d524adcfde9ca26c97b4804558530.jpeg

When FURY and the Flesh Hounds in the West couldn’t get the job done I was left with... 0 VP.  Any hope to make it up with a double turn was quickly evaporated when I rolled (yet another...) 2 for initiative.  

In leaving a unit of Flesh Hounds and WRATH back my hope had been to draw forward the Hearthguard Berzerkers far enough to open a gap between them and the Battlesmith.  My original hope had been to wipe the Vulkites in the East and the take advantage of Baleful Lords Run & Charge to fly RAGE into that gap and deal out enough damage and MWs to clear him and the Auric Hearthguard bodyguards.  This would deprive the HBs of one of their +1 Saves, potentially their 4+ HERO shrug, and ideally their battalion ability to pile in and attack a second time.  All in perfect time to slam Skarbrand into them.

In R2.1 this plan partially worked.  The gap did open up.  But my opponent popped the Runesmiter on Magmadroth Grand Ritual and moved him into position for the HBs to get a +1 to Save (and thus the HERO 4+ shrug) even if I killed the Battlesmith.  Meanwhile the 20x Vulkites were also in the Runesmiter Grand Ritual buff bubble so they held out in the West another turn.  Thus I was down 12-0 by the time I got my second turn.

0207352C-8957-4795-9C39-416D95875405.jpeg.65f9f63f0b60b9bda062cefc64e152e8.jpeg

RAGE would fly over and wipe out the Battlesmith but with 4+/4++ the Hearthguard handled the Skarbrand hit better than hoped.  By that point the VP deficit was too much. 

From the Fyreslayers perspective the 20x Vulkites Berzerkers were MVPs.  The +1 Save from the Bladed Slingshield made a difference, especially when paired with the +1 from the Runesmiter’s Grand Ritual, in tying up a big chunk of my forces.  To finally clear them R3 I’d need to summon 10x  more Flesh Hounds.  Now was that Khorne’s hammer?  No.  But by holding out in the West so long they prevented the Tyrants from converging in the middle against the rest all while wracking up VP.  The Warpick’s Rend, especially when doubled to -2 in R2 when the tune was in effect, also made sure they wore down the units tied up with them.  Add in Berzerker Fury, allowing pile in on death and points wise they came out at least even.  I’ve definitely come to appreciate the value of this block in the list.

Again, this is far from a fully optimized list but I like that it has more tools than I expected.  It can put 20x semi-resilient Vulkites bodies on an objective, especially with Vostarg movement or Runesmiter’s tunnel,  with the knowledge that the opponent probably has to turn their hardest hitters in the direction of the Hearthguard Berzerkers.  Meanwhile, in later rounds the Magmadroths get chances to shine.

 

Edited by Beer & Pretzels Gamer
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13 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Too little, too late.

The tables have flipped in Zoom League so this time it was me trying to crack the Fyreslayers list with my opponent’s Khorne list.  Having seen his “hammer” break on my Hearthguard Anvil I had a plan.  Unfortunately Fyreslayers were just too good in the two rounds it took me to execute my plan and were helped by some failed charges,

I expected him to imitate my success in moving the Hearthguard Berzerkers with Battlesmith plus Bodyguards into the middle.  I even got lucky that the primary objective landed in the West so he couldn’t just camp on it if I made him go first like I had when it had fallen in Center first two rounds.  That forced him to bring the 20x Vulkites in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on foot out onto that objective R1.1.  He also ran his 10x Vulkites out onto the East objective.

Okay, stunk starting off down 7 VP but felt I was in a good position to claw back 5 as I started the first part of my plan.  FURY and two units of 5x Flesh Hounds went to the West.  FURY was even able to snipe the Runesmiter in the Shooting Phase with his whip and all three of them made their charges so I was hopeful that I would be able to clear enough to force a painful battle shock he couldn’t CP without a HERO in range.

Meanwhile RAGE and 5x Flesh Hounds headed East to clear of the Vulkites.  Unfortunately despite rerolls, they failed their charges.

867B0440-1A73-4F78-9D9E-97D53DD9CE24.jpeg.20a4a3d87bcd7475d10494f73d18c12d.jpeg28E26F3F-7CCB-497D-9BDD-C88C6C6C50BB.jpeg.f99d524adcfde9ca26c97b4804558530.jpeg

When FURY and the Flesh Hounds in the West couldn’t get the job done I was left with... 0 VP.  Any hope to make it up with a double turn was quickly evaporated when I rolled (yet another...) 2 for initiative.  

In leaving a unit of Flesh Hounds and WRATH back my hope had been to draw forward the Hearthguard Berzerkers far enough to open a gap between them and the Battlesmith.  My original hope had been to wipe the Vulkites in the East and the take advantage of Baleful Lords Run & Charge to fly RAGE into that gap and deal out enough damage and MWs to clear him and the Auric Hearthguard bodyguards.  This would deprive the HBs of one of their +1 Saves, potentially their 4+ HERO shrug, and ideally their battalion ability to pile in and attack a second time.  All in perfect time to slam Skarbrand into them.

In R2.1 this plan partially worked.  The gap did open up.  But my opponent popped the Runesmiter on Magmadroth Grand Ritual and moved him into position for the HBs to get a +1 to Save (and thus the HERO 4+ shrug) even if I killed the Battlesmith.  Meanwhile the 20x Vulkites were also in the Runesmiter Grand Ritual buff bubble so they held out in the West another turn.  Thus I was down 12-0 by the time I got my second turn.

0207352C-8957-4795-9C39-416D95875405.jpeg.65f9f63f0b60b9bda062cefc64e152e8.jpeg

RAGE would fly over and wipe out the Battlesmith but with 4+/4++ the Hearthguard handled the Skarbrand hit better than hoped.  By that point the VP deficit was too much. 

From the Fyreslayers perspective the 20x Vulkites Berzerkers were MVPs.  The +1 Save from the Bladed Slingshield made a difference, especially when paired with the +1 from the Runesmiter’s Grand Ritual, in tying up a big chunk of my forces.  To finally clear then R3 I’d need to summon 19x more Flesh Hounds.  Now was that Khorne’s hammer?  No.  But by holding out in the West so long they prevented the Tyrants from converging in the middle against the rest all while wracking up VP.  The Warpick’s Rend, especially when doubled to -2 in R2 when the tune was in effect, also made sure they wore down the units tied up with them.  Add in Berzerker Fury, allowing pile in on death and points wise they came out at least even.  I’ve definitely come to appreciate the value of this block in the list.

Again, this is far from a fully optimized list but I like that it has more tools than I expected.  It can put 20x semi-resilient Vulkites bodies on an objective, especially with Vostarg movement or Runesmiter’s tunnel,  with the knowledge that the opponent probably has to turn their hardest hitters in the direction of the Hearthguard Berzerkers.  Meanwhile, in later rounds the Magmadroths get chances to shine.

 

Seems like you enjoyed it 😄

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6 hours ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

Seems like you enjoyed it 😄

Certainly the most fun I’ve had losing!  (By double digits none the less.)

It is fascinating to see your list played by someone else.  The list dictated certain approaches but my opponent still made different choices than I would’ve in certain areas as they are a bigger gambler.  Here it paid off.  (Would be curious how it would’ve played had I made those charges...)

But while I’m not a big tournament player (normal conditions 2-3 small locals a year) this will now be a regular part of my tournament prep.  Learned a lot playing the list the first three matches but learned a lot trying to “crack it”, and expect to learn even more next two matches as I get ahold of new tools to try and accomplish that task.

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I´m thinking to restart my fyreslayers. I´m looking forward to start with a new paint work, geting some extra models etc. Do you have any nice advice for me?

 

Second, do you think GW has forgotten us? Because I think they could do so many fun things with our faction. Like some cavalery, dwarf with molten lances on smaller lizards, perhaps some female miniatures operating some sort of warmachine, perhaps a avatar of Grimnir (huge dwarf slayer with a big axe roaming around), etc. Or what do you think? Are GW planing something for the future or will they let us rest for a while?

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Gw have forgotten us in the aspect of battleforces or dualbox.

But in releases......really every non daemon,elf or stormcast have got the same number of new units than us(0), because the new hero of dual box dont count.

And we have got scenary,endless spells,shadespire warband and even we have fyreslayers in the soulbund rpg game.

So even if some dwarf hater in other post want us deleted seems gw hadnt forgotten us.

 

I really hope new releases soon after all this spam of elfs

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2 hours ago, Ulfast said:

I´m thinking to restart my fyreslayers. I´m looking forward to start with a new paint work, geting some extra models etc. Do you have any nice advice for me?

 

Second, do you think GW has forgotten us? Because I think they could do so many fun things with our faction. Like some cavalery, dwarf with molten lances on smaller lizards, perhaps some female miniatures operating some sort of warmachine, perhaps a avatar of Grimnir (huge dwarf slayer with a big axe roaming around), etc. Or what do you think? Are GW planing something for the future or will they let us rest for a while?

I’m in the camp that thinks Fyreslayers will get rolled into a United Duardin Tome a la Orruk Warclans or Ogor Mawtribes.  My hope is with that will come some new models.  At a minimum just imagine dropping off 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers anywhere on the battlefield from a KO ship....

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Im actually hoping we are not being rolled into a united tome as I like our unique aspect. What I would like is to expand with more units and make some background (fluff) more clear. 

 

I´m really looking forward and as I bought my fyreslayer when they where released I´m going to buy the new endlesspells, our terrain and ofc the new book. After that I will try to get some more Hearthguards

 

Btw, most of my gamestores around where I live has sold out most of the things for fyreslayers. Is that just bad luck for me or is it similiar in other stories too (thinking specially about armybook, terrain and endless spells)?

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1 minute ago, Ulfast said:

Im actually hoping we are not being rolled into a united tome as I like our unique aspect. What I would like is to expand with more units and make some background (fluff) more clear. 

 

I´m really looking forward and as I bought my fyreslayer when they where released I´m going to buy the new endlesspells, our terrain and ofc the new book. After that I will try to get some more Hearthguards

 

Btw, most of my gamestores around where I live has sold out most of the things for fyreslayers. Is that just bad luck for me or is it similiar in other stories too (thinking specially about armybook, terrain and endless spells)?

I’d love if it there was a nice expansion a la Slaanesh.  But having played a lot of Mawtribes and seen a lot of Warclans think there are ways both keep the unique flavors of the sub-factions whether BCR and Gutbusters implicitly in Mawtribes or Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz a lot more explicitly in Warclans.  If they do combine I’d prefer the latter with pretty explicit options for pure Fyreslayer and KO lists but then a Big Waaagh!!! Equivalent that allows a unique United Duardin faction including both and Dispossessed. 

As far as bad luck I know from speaking to both my locals (an actual GW and a broader gaming store) that they typically only stock 1 SC kit and 1 box of Hearthguard, replacing only with sale.  This pretty common for older factions (e.g. until BR only stalking SC IDK and eels, or SC BCR and Gluttons or Ironguts) to my understanding.  Retailers want to minimize slow turn inventory and outside of new Tome releases most older factions have low turn.

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I would prefer Fyreslayers, Dispossessed (splitting away from Cities Of Sigmar) and Kharadron Overlords remain seperate, however my wish for them to merge comes from a point of view that if gw aren’t going to bother expanding Fyreslayers then at least give them the other duardin to help them out.

there is so much potential for fyreslayers new models
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Chariots
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast packs (think Gryph Hound sized beasts)
-mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Calvary (think goat riders from Middle-earth)
-warmachines like a Fyreslayers version of the old Grudge Throwers/Flame Cannons etc
-Vulkite Berzerkers with great axes (like the one guy from The Chosen Axes have)
-more heroes on Magmadroths, like the Runemaster who was listed in one of the Realmgate Wars narrative battalions 

from a rules point of view
-Runefather and Runemaster become Unique. The lore states quite clearly that there’s only ever one per Lodge. Either make them unique or disallow the Lodge rules when taking multiples.
-remove Battleline from Hearthguard Berzerkers and Auric Hearthguard. In the lore, they come across as more of a elite bodyguard unit than the core of an army.
-Vulkite Berzerkers get the old Berzerker Fury rule back, either on the warscroll or as an allegiance ability for the whole army. The damage save fyreslayers get is explained in the lore as coming from the Ur-Gold runes, which all fyreslayers have, so why do only some units have a damage save?
-Ur-Gold mechanic like Aetherquarts/Aethergold.
-Battlesmith gets an innate ignore spells on a 4+ wholly within 18” rather than needing an artefact, the rule would continue to apply from a unit using None Shall Defile The Icon rule. We need anti-magic and spending valuable artefact slots on our only defence against it is feels bad

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3 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Calvary (think goat riders from Middle-earth)

I would love a Fyreslayer Cavalry unit.

I’d be worried though if Vulkites became the only battleline option.  I enjoy taking a nice block of them but wouldn’t want to start every list with three.  Still only three games played as and two against in my Fyreslayers journey but know from FEC the value of “Batttleline IF...” in keeping an army fun and fresh.  I wouldn’t mind at all though if they shifted the conditions away from who your general is to make them Lodge specific.

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I have dispossesed and fyreslayers.  Im a dwarf lover but i cant buy kharadrons because i hate steampunk style so to me they are soooo ugly.

 

So i would be happy to have a big wagg tome with dispossesed alegiance,fyreslayer alegiance and a joined alegiance of dispossesed and fyreslayer.

 

Also new units:

Ungrim reborn,as the avatar of fire

New units half dispossesed half fyreslayers(as umgrin was)

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1 hour ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

I would love a Fyreslayer Cavalry unit.

I’d be worried though if Vulkites became the only battleline option.  I enjoy taking a nice block of them but wouldn’t want to start every list with three.  Still only three games played as and two against in my Fyreslayers journey but know from FEC the value of “Batttleline IF...” in keeping an army fun and fresh.  I wouldn’t mind at all though if they shifted the conditions away from who your general is to make them Lodge specific.

I understand your concern about Vulkites being the only Battleline, but sadly I believe Hearthguard need to lose Battleline If status to discourage people from spamming them, they aren’t supposed to be the core of your army

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One of the thing  I like about the fyreslayers is that much is unexplored and a good writer with a nice team of minatures makers could do so much. It seems that right now the army is not so popular but that could easy change, if GW really put some into them. Perhaps they have allready done(as we now GW some times have minatures waiting for up to three year before release). Would be nice if they just could spoil a bit if something is on it´s way. Also, introduce some female models, we don´t need to be a full male faction. I really like the fluff behind Vostags that was in the white dwarf about, Grimnir (I think his name is) him having a daughter and it seems her destiny is to take up the crown! 

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3 hours ago, Ulfast said:

One of the thing  I like about the fyreslayers is that much is unexplored and a good writer with a nice team of minatures makers could do so much. It seems that right now the army is not so popular but that could easy change, if GW really put some into them. Perhaps they have allready done(as we now GW some times have minatures waiting for up to three year before release). Would be nice if they just could spoil a bit if something is on it´s way. Also, introduce some female models, we don´t need to be a full male faction. I really like the fluff behind Vostags that was in the white dwarf about, Grimnir (I think his name is) him having a daughter and it seems her destiny is to take up the crown! 

According to the Fyreslayers lore, like traditional dwarfs, females are very rare and as such are kept away from the battlefield to protect the reproductive capabilities of the Fyreslayers so they don’t all die out

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9 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

I understand your concern about Vulkites being the only Battleline, but sadly I believe Hearthguard need to lose Battleline If status to discourage people from spamming them, they aren’t supposed to be the core of your army

Again, still relatively new to Fyreslayers but do think that making “Battleline If” tied to Lodge not General would help if this is really an issue.  To my understanding the big external complaint around Hearthguard Berzerkers is running two blocks of 20x in Hermdar w/a Lords of the Lodge Battalion.  If Hermdar was NOT the Lodge that allowed HBs to be battleline my guess is that would drop to a single unit of 20x for the battalion.

That said your argument seems to be more fluff oriented than player experience oriented?  I’m primarily (at least in non-COVID-19 times) a narrative player so I am empathetic to the arguments I’ve seen here and in other threads (such as AoS 3.0) for lore based limitations.  That said I’m overall lukewarm to the idea as I don’t struggle all that much to accommodate any non-HERO based ones.  Simply put I make no personal assumption that a particular point level equates to the “platonic ideal” of a faction’s army size.  In fact much of the lore I do read suggests that an Alfrostun for Mawtribes would be much larger than 2K points would allow.  In most cases the Super Battalions best reflect what the true army size would be.

So as regards any 2k list weighted more strongly to HBs (or if it so happened AHs) my mind has no problem adjusting to this is not some fresh Fyrd that just marched out of the Magmahold in full force but one that has been whittled down by combat.  Makes perfect sense that the stronger units such as HB would have more survivors than the Vulkites.

Alternatively my mind frequently has come to see any individual 2K match up as largely reflecting a slice of the larger battle (this was a common set up for the historical war games I started playing before AoS, where for model reasons maybe only one flank of a battle was reflected, or only a few hours of the engagement that didn’t include certain units that arrived later or were held in reserve).   So again, this is an easy mental adjustment for when I see big blobs of HBs (as in ahh, this is the core the army so the best troops are represented).

But net-net until Fyreslayers gets more multiple model units I see limited reason to restrict the use of ones we have.

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One of the thing that can me this faction more intersting is a bigger range. I think the few option, specially as many see them as similiar (I dont really agree but I can understand it) is the big brake for our faction. Just two three new units would help. It would help visual and tactial. 

 

I think vulkite berzekers should be our battleline, and the rest more elite. but I´m also more of a lore background, I would never use more then one runefather in my army :)

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9 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Again, still relatively new to Fyreslayers but do think that making “Battleline If” tied to Lodge not General would help if this is really an issue.  To my understanding the big external complaint around Hearthguard Berzerkers is running two blocks of 20x in Hermdar w/a Lords of the Lodge Battalion.  If Hermdar was NOT the Lodge that allowed HBs to be battleline my guess is that would drop to a single unit of 20x for the battalion.

That said your argument seems to be more fluff oriented than player experience oriented?  I’m primarily (at least in non-COVID-19 times) a narrative player so I am empathetic to the arguments I’ve seen here and in other threads (such as AoS 3.0) for lore based limitations.  That said I’m overall lukewarm to the idea as I don’t struggle all that much to accommodate any non-HERO based ones.  Simply put I make no personal assumption that a particular point level equates to the “platonic ideal” of a faction’s army size.  In fact much of the lore I do read suggests that an Alfrostun for Mawtribes would be much larger than 2K points would allow.  In most cases the Super Battalions best reflect what the true army size would be.

So as regards any 2k list weighted more strongly to HBs (or if it so happened AHs) my mind has no problem adjusting to this is not some fresh Fyrd that just marched out of the Magmahold in full force but one that has been whittled down by combat.  Makes perfect sense that the stronger units such as HB would have more survivors than the Vulkites.

Alternatively my mind frequently has come to see any individual 2K match up as largely reflecting a slice of the larger battle (this was a common set up for the historical war games I started playing before AoS, where for model reasons maybe only one flank of a battle was reflected, or only a few hours of the engagement that didn’t include certain units that arrived later or were held in reserve).   So again, this is an easy mental adjustment for when I see big blobs of HBs (as in ahh, this is the core the army so the best troops are represented).

But net-net until Fyreslayers gets more multiple model units I see limited reason to restrict the use of ones we have.

Well, in my mind, no, restricting Battleline If to a certain Lodge would just change the Lodge people use. Hearthguard were still spammed in the old rules too, but The 3x30 Vulkite list was also quite common then. The other issue is still the lore side, the rules currently allow you to take more than the lore would suggest you should, and that rubs me the wrong way because people aren’t spamming Hearthguard because they look cool, it’s because they’ve found some strong power combo.

but yes that’s true, 2000pts isn’t the full battle but rather a small section of the battlefield. However, the problem I see with trying to use that to justify things like spamming Hearthguard is why do we even need Battleline at all? In this particular area of the battlefield maybe the Battleline have all died or moved to help out in a different area

ultimately we need more units to choose from. Lack of options is probably the only reason gw allow Hearthguard spam and multiple Runefathers, the army is too small to restrict choices

Edited by Joseph Mackay

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7 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

but yes that’s true, 2000pts isn’t the full battle but rather a small section of the battlefield. However, the problem I see with trying to use that to justify things like spamming Hearthguard is why do we even need Battleline at all? In this particular area of the battlefield maybe the Battleline have all died or moved to help out in a different area

ultimately we need more units to choose from. Lack of options is probably the only reason gw allow Hearthguard spam and multiple Runefathers, the army is too small to restrict choices

Again, all for more unit choice (particularly if Cavalry!).  

Think there are good questions re:battle line.   Personally prefer the Ironjawz everything is battleline except Heroes for smaller factions to you get one and then “Battleline if”.  Personally don’t spam HBs at moment, just run on block in Lords of Lodge, and wish it was easier to fit in more AH because I do love the idea of a dragon axe flamethrower combo, but as they can’t be battleline at same time as HBs.  So my ideal likely something like 20x HBs w/Flamestrike (I do like the look of those over the regular axes), 20x VBs w/pick axe and shield, and 10x/5x AHs.  But that build not valid undercurrent restrictions.

 

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