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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

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Posted (edited)

since 2017 until late last year, Fyreslayers were my main army in aos. sadly i was getting a bit bored of them, within my group i basically auto won in Duality of Death and lost everything else. i dont think the army was bad, it was definately down to how i was playing them. however i did get bored of them and moved on.

after playing 2 games with the new book vs Stormcast and Beasts of Chaos, heres a bit of what i think

-Throwing Axes: disappointed they were nerfed to 5+
-Runes: small complaints. movement one nerfed to 2" and the throwing axes one was nerfed to bring the axes back up to 4+ why?
-lack of magic defense really hurts a lot more now than it used to pre endless spells. at least our one artefact for it is no longer once per game
-Magmadroths: cool that you can take 5 with Lofnir. the abilities being tidied up is good, the extra wounds, attacks and most of the mount traits are great, still die to a stiff breeze as always
-Hearthguard Berzerkers: they always felt overcosted b efore but now i think theyre great. theyve survived better than vulkites
-Vulkite Berzerkers: extra wound is great, normal axe attacks are better, no damage save hurts a lot (see below about points costs), Berzerker Fury is a bad rule, ours is once per game yet khorne get it all the time on a unit thats much better
-Infernoth: my favourite model of the prayers and i think it hs great rules. my only issue is you need a lot of priests to really take advantage of this and the other prayers
-Grimwrath Berzerker: greatly improved, my favourite foot hero. i look forward to game 3 where i plan to try a list using 10 or more of them (since they dont have the LEADER tag, you can take as many as you want but they cant be your general)
-Points: so heres the real dowside to the new rules (apart from not getting any new units). it feels like the points are based on what the units used to do and not what they do now. Vulkites cost too much at 160 without the damage save, Hearthguard Berzerkers could maybe go up by 20. magmadroth points are around the wrong way Runesmiter should be the cheaper one. battlesmith isnt worth 140 for what he does now (+1 save instead of reroll saves)

ive got a coule of list ideas i still have to try out before i fully form my oppinion, but so far im not enjoying playing them as much as i once did and i feel like i might end up going back to my Flesh-Eaters :/

Edited by Joseph Mackay
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2 hours ago, Jetengine said:

Question.

Are Fyreslayers an elite army now ? Or are they still a (irl cash) overpriced Horde army ?

I would call them a semi-elite army now.

The thing that holds them back from being a fully elite army like Stormcast is that they're still infantry based, unless you go all in on Magmadroth.

That said, with the overall point increases and changes to make more units and heroes viable, I'd say the average unit count went down by about half.  You're looking at fielding about 40-60 guys instead of 100+, and the unit diversity is higher, so you get that unit count from a mix of guys and not painting 90 Vulkites.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I had a game with a lofnir list against death (arkhan) over the weekend with a little bit of everything aurics, hearthguards and vulkites. I was pleasantly surprised how efficient the double axes vulkites are. I had 2 10 man who both were charged by reapers at the same time, one 10 man manage to down a morghast due to berzerk fury and the other squad gets to essentially swing twice and kill 15 reapers on his turn which let me move on to his gravesites on my turn. 

Although a 2+ reroll 1s (from a nearby ancient magmadroth) reduce rend 1 magmadroth (it's own trait) is practically a tank against all the reapers. 

Aurics had no decent targets. 

Hearthguards are amazing per expectations. 

Edited by Qaz
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8 hours ago, angrycontra said:

First of all, all your examples have 1 wound (with phoenix guard being technically exception). Vulkites have literally double their survivability. Secondly, fyreslayers get easy access to save stacking so that can make vulkites even more durable. Thirdly, phoenix guard are pretty strong yes, but that is also the reason why phoenix temple based order lists have done well in tournaments. They're too good for their points. And even there... Even there the difference is only 20p and vulkites have ability to pile in after death (not to mention allegiance advantages) which should count for something. Also vulkites get full rerolls with axes. As for the dispossessed example, well getting 20 guys in melee is lot harder than getting 10 in melee (despite smaller bases) and once again, allegiance advantages for fyreslayers are the reason why they're better army than dispossessed (for now).

But seriously, do you really have nothing else to contribute to this thread (or any other thread for that matter) than constant whining and crying? Every time I see overly negative comment in this forum, I don't even need to look at the name to know it's you. It's just a game. If vulkites are bit meh, they get point cuts in the future. Same with everything else. Besides, at this point it's too early to tell and each army has it's own strenghts and weaknesses, you can't always tell straight away whether unit x is better than y.

So all is great and we cant say nothing bad about the tome?

It is a fact that vulkites are 100% useless now. Maybe i was wrong compare them to units of others tomes.

But it is so easy as compare them to stormcast,vulkites=liberators  heartguard=sequitors  it is 100% the same situation now for us.

Hearthguard are cheaper than vulkites and for less cost have more damage,same tankiness and easier to use(for same cost are half models and 2" rangue so much easier to attack with all) and have access to the same buffs than vulkites.

So how i am negative for point something that it is obvious?

 

Heartguard are better in all than vulkites for less points and have the same buffs,it is a fact 

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2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

since 2017 until late last year, Fyreslayers were my main army in aos. sadly i was getting a bit bored of them, within my group i basically auto won in Duality of Death and lost everything else. i dont think the army was bad, it was definately down to how i was playing them. however i did get bored of them and moved on.

after playing 2 games with the new book vs Stormcast and Beasts of Chaos, heres a bit of what i think

-Throwing Axes: disappointed they were nerfed to 5+
-Runes: small complaints. movement one nerfed to 2" and the throwing axes one was nerfed to bring the axes back up to 4+ why?
-lack of magic defense really hurts a lot more now than it used to pre endless spells. at least our one artefact for it is no longer once per game
-Magmadroths: cool that you can take 5 with Lofnir. the abilities being tidied up is good, the extra wounds, attacks and most of the mount traits are great, still die to a stiff breeze as always
-Hearthguard Berzerkers: they always felt overcosted b efore but now i think theyre great. theyve survived better than vulkites
-Vulkite Berzerkers: extra wound is great, normal axe attacks are better, no damage save hurts a lot (see below about points costs), Berzerker Fury is a bad rule, ours is once per game yet khorne get it all the time on a unit thats much better
-Infernoth: my favourite model of the prayers and i think it hs great rules. my only issue is you need a lot of priests to really take advantage of this and the other prayers
-Grimwrath Berzerker: greatly improved, my favourite foot hero. i look forward to game 3 where i plan to try a list using 10 or more of them (since they dont have the LEADER tag, you can take as many as you want but they cant be your general)
-Points: so heres the real dowside to the new rules (apart from not getting any new units). it feels like the points are based on what the units used to do and not what they do now. Vulkites cost too much at 160 without the damage save, Hearthguard Berzerkers could maybe go up by 20. magmadroth points are around the wrong way Runesmiter should be the cheaper one. battlesmith isnt worth 140 for what he does now (+1 save instead of reroll saves)

ive got a coule of list ideas i still have to try out before i fully form my oppinion, but so far im not enjoying playing them as much as i once did and i feel like i might end up going back to my Flesh-Eaters :/

Take care people here gonna jump to your troath if you says anithing bad about the tome

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31 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

It is a fact that vulkites are 100% useless now. Maybe i was wrong compare them to units of others tomes.

But it is so easy as compare them to stormcast,vulkites=liberators  heartguard=sequitors  it is 100% the same situation now for us.

Hearthguard are cheaper than vulkites and for less cost have more damage,same tankiness and easier to use(for same cost are half models and 2" rangue so much easier to attack with all) and have access to the same buffs than vulkites.

So how i am negative for point something that it is obvious?

 

Heartguard are better in all than vulkites for less points and have the same buffs,it is a fact 

You are either willfully ignoring all the arguments presented against you, or you seem to have different definitions of "useless" and "fact". You are only looking at one metric, potential max damage output per point, and ignoring everything else.

Hearthguard are very good but they are not strictly better than Vulkites. 

You are arguing in bad faith and it only makes you look foolish...

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I don't really see how Blood Warriors are "much better than Vulkites" personally.

Cost: 160 vs 200 (for 10 models)

Movement 4 vs 5

Wounds same

Bravery 7 vs 6

Save 5 (4) vs 4

Attacks: 2 3+/3+ - 1 dam vs 2 3+/4+ - 1 dam

Blood Warriors get to re-roll ones to hit, or take gorefists for the 6 save mortal wounds,  always have no respite and can take one glaive in a unit of 10

Vulkites get a ranged attack, Berserk Fury 1/battle, and either re-roll all hits or else get an equal save, still better attack profile, and mortal wounds on the charge.

Vulkites are mostly better and also 20% cheaper. They are quite good for their cost.

As for Hearthguard, they don't replace Vulkites because they don't fill the same role. If you want a big smashy ball of guys, yes, Hearthguard are better.  Hearthguard as screens or objective grabbers are just wasteful and not as good. Each HGB unit needs a hero babysitter to keep up their effectiveness, and putting them into small teams just pointlessly spreads out heroes and buffs for no real gain. You will never convince me the 3x HGB list is optimal.

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As someone who plays Khorne and runs Blood Warriors I'm thinking Vulkites will be pretty good. The main issue with Blood Warriors' no respite rule is that aside from the champion they don't really do much damage unless buffed (that 4+ to wound hurts). With vulkites having a 3+ to wound and rerolling hits or -1 rend (but with 4 to wound so they'll need support if you want them to do some real damage) I'm thinking they'll get some fair mileage. My only issue with them is that their Berserk Fury triggers is a once per game ability that triggers "at the start of the combat phase" so they'll still be vulnerable still to something like a Gristlegore general just charging in and killing them.

My main concerns with the new book are 2 points:

Turn 1 alpha strike lists: This is something of an issue in my meta. These lists low drop to go first then charge their whole army in (or most of it) with massive melee buffs. The only reliable counter I've found is cheap chaff units I can bubble wrap my army in which is something Fyreslayers don't have. I'm thinking of allying in dispossed warriors but I'd rather no have to go out of our battletome.

Unbinding and Dispelling Endless Spells: I've got mixed feelings about this. On one hand it leaves us very vulnerable but on the other hand the super nasty casting lists all have bonuses that mean a straight dice unbind is almost worthless.  On the other hand, Endless Spells like the rat trap need to be dispelled immediately or you risk losing the game because of it. Our dispel prayer actually makes us more reliable at dispelling endless spells than most armies.

Anyone here got some games in yet against alpha strike or casting armies? How are you feeling about the tome in regards to those lists?

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1 hour ago, Forrix said:

Our dispel prayer actually makes us more reliable at dispelling endless spells than most armies.

What dispel prayer? I haven't read anything that suggests we can even dispel endless spells.

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Posted (edited)

If you are having trouble with alpha strike armies you should use the magmic invocations to block space. Terrorgheists are fast but they have huge bases and you can make it impossible for them to finish a charge with some clever invocation placement.

Also, Magmadroths can be unbelievably tanky - along the lines of a Stardrake but with much better damage output. With a Smoldering Helm and +4 to saves they can wipe out enemy units with their own attacks.

Against magic heavy armies the Fyrewall does a great job at blocking line of sight, and if you need to stop key defensive spells you can bring a Knight-Incantor.

Edited by PJetski

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2 hours ago, Forrix said:

As someone who plays Khorne and runs Blood Warriors I'm thinking Vulkites will be pretty good. The main issue with Blood Warriors' no respite rule is that aside from the champion they don't really do much damage unless buffed (that 4+ to wound hurts). With vulkites having a 3+ to wound and rerolling hits or -1 rend (but with 4 to wound so they'll need support if you want them to do some real damage) I'm thinking they'll get some fair mileage. My only issue with them is that their Berserk Fury triggers is a once per game ability that triggers "at the start of the combat phase" so they'll still be vulnerable still to something like a Gristlegore general just charging in and killing them.

My main concerns with the new book are 2 points:

Turn 1 alpha strike lists: This is something of an issue in my meta. These lists low drop to go first then charge their whole army in (or most of it) with massive melee buffs. The only reliable counter I've found is cheap chaff units I can bubble wrap my army in which is something Fyreslayers don't have. I'm thinking of allying in dispossed warriors but I'd rather no have to go out of our battletome.

Unbinding and Dispelling Endless Spells: I've got mixed feelings about this. On one hand it leaves us very vulnerable but on the other hand the super nasty casting lists all have bonuses that mean a straight dice unbind is almost worthless.  On the other hand, Endless Spells like the rat trap need to be dispelled immediately or you risk losing the game because of it. Our dispel prayer actually makes us more reliable at dispelling endless spells than most armies.

Anyone here got some games in yet against alpha strike or casting armies? How are you feeling about the tome in regards to those lists?

Are you talking about the battlesmith's artefact totem or is there an actual prayer that I must have glossed over to dispell?

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Im a Dispossessed player and wanted to ask what units got better without allegiance synergy. So which units and combos got better as allies in your eyes? Maybe its still too soon to tell, but id like to use some to help my dispossessed mobility wise so probably a runesmiter with a unit of hearthguard berzerkers.

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9 hours ago, AlmGandix3 said:

Im a Dispossessed player and wanted to ask what units got better without allegiance synergy. So which units and combos got better as allies in your eyes? Maybe its still too soon to tell, but id like to use some to help my dispossessed mobility wise so probably a runesmiter with a unit of hearthguard berzerkers.

Well can't say there are too many. Vulkites are better in smaller units than they used to be, but I'm not really sure if they give any major value for dispossessed. Hg berz. need fyreslayer hero which limits their use as allies (you can basically only take 10 man unit, which with hero costs about 400p). Aurics are useful as allies. If you take 10 aurics, they cost 40p more than 10 irondrakes but you get double the wounds and double damage against monsters. Put hero like runesmiter there and they can be deepstriked and aurics will even protect runesmiter if you wish. Grimwraths are pretty solid allies (especially since they lack leader role, this means you could add 4 of them without ruining your army). Magmadroths are not that great as allies. Loss of artifacts, magma traits and any helpful save stacking makes them not so strong as allies.

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10 hours ago, AlmGandix3 said:

Im a Dispossessed player and wanted to ask what units got better without allegiance synergy. So which units and combos got better as allies in your eyes? Maybe its still too soon to tell, but id like to use some to help my dispossessed mobility wise so probably a runesmiter with a unit of hearthguard berzerkers.

Take 4 grimwraiths and raise hell

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Had my first  game with the new book yesterday.   I tried to bring/ test as much of the new stuff as possible, ie brought all 3 magmic invocations.  Squeaked out a 1 point victory over the skaven.

Lodge - Greyfyrd. Brought 3 grimwraiths and ran them as a 'unit' so the greyfyrd command ability was great.

Leaders

runefather on magmadroth, general. Trait and artifact from the lodge, coal-heart ancient as magmadroth trait.  He didnt do as much as I'd hoped, my opponent focused on killing him pretty quickly. The rend reduction, paired with battlesmith and pray of ash would make this a very hard to kill model.

2 runesmiters - molten infusion, and searing heat as there prayers.  Since i took all 3 magmic invocations, molten infusion was really helpful. With that said, i think there are better options for most games.

Runemaster with prayer of ash.  He manned the forge and got prayer of ash off everytime, I can see using him to man the pizza oven most games.

Battlesmith with the icon of grimnirs condemnation.  Bubble of +1 save was great, although I did miss the rerolling save.  Liked being able to unbind spells, even did a mortal wound.  Can hold his own in combat too with the damage increase.  Was very impressed overall.

Runeson with wyrmslayer javilin.  Wasn't a could test for him.  Got unlucky and rolled well below averages.

Battleline

2 5 man units of Hearthguard berzerkers, 1 with broadaxes, the other with poleaxes. Small sample size, but I was much more impressed with the broadaxes.

10 vulkites with with picks and shields.  Solid speed bump, killed a unit of rat ogres.  missed the beard save, but think it is a good unit, liked not having to take 30.  I forgot to use the berzerkers fury ability so nothing to add there.

10 Auric Hearthguard.  Love the changes to these guys.  Extra range is nice, as is the bonus damage against monsters.  Cooked a verminlod, i was very happy with these guys.

3 Grimwraiths.  Been my favourite fyreslayer unit from the beginning, so pumped they are no longer leaders.  Ran the 3 as a super elite unit and they did not disappoint.  The Greyfyrd command ability feels like it was designed for this kind of play.  They craved through everything in there path.  Love these guys.

 

Overall I was happy with the changes and new rules.  As said, this list was intended to try as much new stuff as possible, not optimized at all.  A lot of ways to play fyreslayers now, despite the limited model selection.  

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Posted (edited)

guys i try do 2k competiv list, can u give advice:

 

Spoiler

Lodge: Hermdar

Auric Runefather  - 100
General
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Tyrant Slayer
Command Trait: Warrior Indominate

Auric Runemaster 120
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Prayer: Searing Heat

Auric Runesmiter 260
Role: Leader, Behemoth
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Ash-cloud Rune
Prayer: Searing Heat
Mount Trait: Flame-scale Youngblood

Battlesmith 140
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1

Hearthguard Berzerkers 600
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 30
Upgrade: Karl

Vulkite Berzerkers  360
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Vulkite Berzerkers 360 
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Lords of the Lodge - 140

2cp 2k 

 

 

 

Edited by azmarus

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17 hours ago, Cvaldor said:

Are you talking about the battlesmith's artefact totem or is there an actual prayer that I must have glossed over to dispell?

DIdn't have my tome on me when I wrote this. Turns out I was thinking of a Khorne prayer ><. Now I'm really curious about how endless spells have been effecting games.

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7 hours ago, azmarus said:

guys i try do 2k competiv list, can u give advice:

 

  Hide contents

Lodge: Hermdar

Auric Runefather  - 100
General
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Tyrant Slayer
Command Trait: Warrior Indominate

Auric Runemaster 120
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Prayer: Searing Heat

Auric Runesmiter 260
Role: Leader, Behemoth
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Ash-cloud Rune
Prayer: Searing Heat
Mount Trait: Flame-scale Youngblood

Battlesmith 140
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1

Hearthguard Berzerkers 600
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 30
Upgrade: Karl

Vulkite Berzerkers  260
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Vulkite Berzerkers 260 
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Lords of the Lodge - 140

2cp 2k 

 

 

 

Your math is off, lad. 20 Vulks is 320, not 260. Drop 10 of them and that looks solid as hell. 

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1 hour ago, TheNotebookGM said:

Your math is off, lad. 20 Vulks is 320, not 260. Drop 10 of them and that looks solid as hell. 

His typing is off, the math is good.  I added it up with 20 vulkites at 320 not 260, and it came out to exactly 2000 points.  

 

9 hours ago, azmarus said:

guys i try do 2k competiv list, can u give advice:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lodge: Hermdar

Auric Runefather  - 100
General
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Tyrant Slayer
Command Trait: Warrior Indominate

Auric Runemaster 120
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1
Prayer: Searing Heat

Auric Runesmiter 260
Role: Leader, Behemoth
Quantity: 1
Artefact: Ash-cloud Rune
Prayer: Searing Heat
Mount Trait: Flame-scale Youngblood

Battlesmith 140
Role: Leader
Quantity: 1

Hearthguard Berzerkers 600
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 30
Upgrade: Karl

Vulkite Berzerkers  260
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Vulkite Berzerkers 260 
Role: Battleline
Quantity: 20
Upgrade: Horn of Grimnir
Upgrade: Karl
Weapon: Fyresteel Handaxe

Lords of the Lodge - 140

2cp 2k 

 

 

 

as notebookgm stated, list looks good.  I'd probably take Prayer of Ash, instead of doubling up on searing heat with your priests

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54 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Runesons: axes or javelin?

I like the javelin, but thats based largely on liking the look more

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52 minutes ago, CentralKarma said:

His typing is off, the math is good.  I added it up with 20 vulkites at 320 not 260, and it came out to exactly 2000 points.  

 

as notebookgm stated, list looks good.  I'd probably take Prayer of Ash, instead of doubling up on searing heat with your priests

Oh, even better, looks great then. 

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1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Runesons: axes or javelin?

I went Javelin for a mounted runeson and axe for one on foot- I feel the axe benefits the most from his own command ability. 

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I'm putting together a 1000-point vanguard list for an upcoming team tournament.

I've never played Fyreslayers before, and this will be my first AoS tournament as well. Here are some initial thoughts:

Allegiance: Fyreslayers

LEADERS

Auric Runefather (100) - General

Auric Runemaster (80)

Battlesmith (120)

Auric Runesmiter (120)

UNITS

10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)

5 x Auric Hearthguard (100)

10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (120)

BATTALIONS

Lords of the Lodge (110)

TOTAL: 950/1000  EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2  WOUNDS: 48

LEADERS: 4/4 BATTLELINES: 2 (2+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/2 ARTILLERY: 0/2 ARTEFACTS: 0/2 ALLIES: 0/200

 

I'm thinking I would add the Runic Fyrewall incantation for the extra 50 points (forgoing the extra command point).

My strategy is to cluster the Runefather, Battlesmith, and Runemaster to buff the Hearthguard Berserkers, with the Vulkites as a screen. A slowly mobile anvil. My parter in the tournament is bringing Stormcast with Lord Arcanum, Sequitors and Evocators as our hammer.

The Runesmiter and Auric Hearthguard would tunnel to be a deepstrinking harrasment bully.

Any comments or critiques? Ideas for Lodge, Artefacts, and weapon loadouts are also welcome. Thanks!

- Nick

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1 hour ago, multiarms said:

I'm putting together a 1000-point vanguard list for an upcoming team tournament.

I've never played Fyreslayers before, and this will be my first AoS tournament as well. Here are some initial thoughts:

Allegiance: Fyreslayers

LEADERS

Auric Runefather (100) - General

Auric Runemaster (80)

Battlesmith (120)

Auric Runesmiter (120)

UNITS

10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)

5 x Auric Hearthguard (100)

10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (120)

BATTALIONS

Lords of the Lodge (110)

TOTAL: 950/1000  EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2  WOUNDS: 48

LEADERS: 4/4 BATTLELINES: 2 (2+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/2 ARTILLERY: 0/2 ARTEFACTS: 0/2 ALLIES: 0/200

 

I'm thinking I would add the Runic Fyrewall incantation for the extra 50 points (forgoing the extra command point).

My strategy is to cluster the Runefather, Battlesmith, and Runemaster to buff the Hearthguard Berserkers, with the Vulkites as a screen. A slowly mobile anvil. My parter in the tournament is bringing Stormcast with Lord Arcanum, Sequitors and Evocators as our hammer.

The Runesmiter and Auric Hearthguard would tunnel to be a deepstrinking harrasment bully.

Any comments or critiques? Ideas for Lodge, Artefacts, and weapon loadouts are also welcome. Thanks!

- Nick

Well for one, those are old points. After quick calculation you can have everything you have there except for battalion. Your army is exactly 1000p without battalion so if you really want that battalion you need to drop 140p of something from your list. Needless to say, you don't have any wiggle room in that list for magmic invocations or command points.

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