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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Phalanx said:

Just to have different opinions, I'm assembling Vulkites and now that we can play them by group of 10 I thought it might be better to put shields on them to make them guardian units. However the double axes remain interesting especially with the berserker aptitude ...

Any thought?

 

 

I think double axes are probably better if you're going to just have groups of 10 roaming around semi-independently. They can hit reliably without buffs and it pairs well with the new Berserker fury.

OTOH, for a group of 20 Vulkites with hero support, picks and shields all the way, IMO. They have better baseline stats/abilities for use as a buff platform, you can pretty easily make them a 2+ save unit with rend attacks and a little bit of mortal wound damage, which totally beats out double axes in terms of potential.

It's what I plan to do anyway, I've already got 20 of each built and painted so I'm planning to run a group of 20 w shields and two groups of 10 with double axes and see how it goes.

Edited by madmac

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Posted (edited)

I think that folks should probably slow down a little bit with the panic about Hearthguard. By the numbers, they are indeed very good. 

Auric Hearthguard are super efficient when shooting monsters and merely fine when shooting at any other target. 

Hearthguard Berserkers with broadaxes are a little more efficient than poleaxes if you don't have rerolls to hit. If you do have reroll all hit rolls, the poleaxes are more efficient (note: you must re-roll all non 6's, not just misses, in order to get this level of efficiency). If you have rerolls both to hit and to wound, then the broadaxes are a bit more efficient. In each case though the numbers are reasonably close.

Hearthguard overall are also very defensively efficient as long as they have a hero around. This is an easy condition to meet, but if the opponent is one of the armies that can reasonably snipe out your heroes you could be in trouble.

Regardless, it's clear that Hearthguard are a very, very good unit at their current cost. That said, there are many units with comparable efficiency. Witch Aelves, Bestigors, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Morsarr Guard, and Boingrot Bounders are all good comparisons on efficiency. No unit is an exact match, but they are in the same ballpark. Plague Monks are a bit worse on defensive efficiency but their offensive efficiency is actually FAR higher than Hearthguard (like, it's not even close.) All of these are tournament caliber units, but none of them have really been shown to be broken. The most dominant warscroll on this list is probably Witch Aelves, but even these have mellowed a bit of late. DoK certainly has far overperformed over the past year, but since the release of the last several battletomes (particulary Skaven and FEC) they aren't showing the same level of dominance.

People are also ignoring the one glaring weakness of this unit, which is speed. Movement is really important in AOS. I'll add the huge caveat that I haven't seen the allegiance abilities yet, but unless there are a TON of buffs which improve movement, this unit is REALLY slow. Every unit that I listed above is faster than this one, and many of them are much faster. Even the "slow" units like Witch Aelves and Bestigors move 6" and can run and charge by default, and many can be easily buffed to move much faster than their baseline. Only Witch Aelves have had a lot of success without access to high movement. The slowest unit of the ones I mentioned (Plague Monks) is still faster than Hearthguard, and despite it being ultra efficient (again, to a degree that makes Hearthguard look like a joke) it hasn't exactly ruined the metagame (at least yet). 

People who are imagining two units of 30 locking down the entire board are dramatically overestimating their defensive capability. High damage concentration units are pretty common in the metagame right now, and if you spread out a unit of 30 as wide as you can, you are going to get hit hard and only be able to retaliate with a few models. 30 Hearthguard can soak a ton of damage, no doubt, but there are plenty of units out there that can deal a ton of damage as well. I don't think you can count on holding out long enough. The folks who are imagining holding multiple objectives with a single unit of 30 should remember that a unit can only claim one objective at a time.

I fully expect Fyreslayers to be solid, and Hearthguard are probably the single most competitive warscroll. I don't think we need to worry about them ruining the meta though, not when there are plenty of other things out there that are super strong in their own right.

 

EDIT: I'll also note that stacking multiple +1 to save from the same source is something that will be very easy to FAQ, and if Fyreslayers do end up being kinda broken because you can stack them up to 2+ rerollables this will be the kind of fix that won't need to wait for a points adjustment opportunity.

Edited by swarmofseals
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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

The folks who are imagining holding multiple objectives with a single unit of 30 should remember that a unit can only claim one objective at a time.

Huh? I thought a big unit that claim multiple objectives. Is there anywhere that is said that a unit could only control one? 

"A model can only be counted towards gaining control of one objective per turn. If one of your models could be counted towards gaining more than one objective, you must pick which one they are counted towards that turn"

Edited by Qaz
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

EDIT: I'll also note that stacking multiple +1 to save from the same source is something that will be very easy to FAQ, and if Fyreslayers do end up being kinda broken because you can stack them up to 2+ rerollables this will be the kind of fix that won't need to wait for a points adjustment opportunity.

There is no need to stack battlesmith to arrive to 2+ (it's quite clear battlesmith will be faqed) they start with 5+ , 4+ with 1 battlesmith, 3+ with the prayer, then u can go 2+ with cover or with the Auric battalion. 

Speaking of movement HG with prayer or Trait can run and charge , considering they can auto-run 6 and that the runefhather CA give them +1 charge stackable they can cover a lot of ground, we are speaking of 17-20 inch in one round. With vostarg Lodge u don't even need to use cp to run 6 and to add the first +1 charge. 

As @Qaz was saying a model cannot contest more than 1 objective but a unit can contest even all the objective simultaneously. 

BTW just to be clear, I'm not moaning about how op fyreslayers are :D just pointing out combo and strength I see in the new battletome, I'm converting a force of fyreslayer too :D

Edited by Arael
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Posted (edited)

As mentioned previously,  The Smouldering Helm looks like it has a tonne of potential on a Magmadroth. With all the +1's to save (even without the soon to be FAQ's Battlesmith stacking) the rend reducing Magmatrait and the reroll save Magmatrait  (Magmadroth subfaction required for magmatrait stacking) we can Tokyo Drift a Magmadroth into a -1 rend horde and still be reflecting a majority of saves as mortal wounds. 

This might be too janky to rely on as a central gameplan (mortal wounds  and shooting counter it) but it doesn't seem to be much of an investment, so strikes me as a cool bonus to tack on to existing strategies, rather than an all-in strategy that loses you the game if it flubs.

Edited by Mikarovic
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Alright so, my planned 2k army list for KO included a 30x Vulkite Berserkers unit to act as a meatshield/melee platform at 360 points total. With the big changes to Fyreslayers, I could use some help in updating this.

So what'd be a good fit for this slot? Doesn't have to be Vulkites since I don't have any of the models yet. But what'd fit the role at about the same point value of 360?

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12 minutes ago, DavionStar said:

Alright so, my planned 2k army list for KO included a 30x Vulkite Berserkers unit to act as a meatshield/melee platform at 360 points total. With the big changes to Fyreslayers, I could use some help in updating this.

So what'd be a good fit for this slot? Doesn't have to be Vulkites since I don't have any of the models yet. But what'd fit the role at about the same point value of 360?

Off the top of my head, 10 hearthguard and a grimwrath berserker would be 340 points and a solid blocking unit. Alternatively changing the grimwrath for a battlesmith would make the unit more tanky at 380 points. 

Or just 20 Vulkites- they’re not quite as ridiculous anymore but with two wounds each they’ll still serve the same purpose, and you could split into 2 units if you preferred without compromising their  survivability.  

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Sounds good, @Azamar, thanks for the input! I think I'll go with the 10 Hearthguard idea. I'm assuming you mean the Berzerkers in this case. I'll see if I can tweak some points to decide between the Grimwrath or Battlesmith. Hoping that Battlescribe and/or Warscroll Builder update their points values soon to make it easier to build and check my points on the fly. :P

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35 minutes ago, DavionStar said:

Sounds good, @Azamar, thanks for the input! I think I'll go with the 10 Hearthguard idea. I'm assuming you mean the Berzerkers in this case. I'll see if I can tweak some points to decide between the Grimwrath or Battlesmith. Hoping that Battlescribe and/or Warscroll Builder update their points values soon to make it easier to build and check my points on the fly. :P

Sorry, yeah the berserkers- I wish they’d changed the names a bit as that’s still annoying. Auric hearthguard are much better now as well, now they don’t vanish off the table as soon as something looks at them, but the extra shooting feels a bit redundant in a KO army! 

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With the book in front, I can say that the Hearthguard are and will be very good, but the truth is that I do not know to what extent, people are saying about the '' horde '' of 30, but gentlemen ... even with the discount of horde we are talking about a unit of 600 points ... it does not seem at all efficient, in fact I do not consider it a horde ... because on top of that we have to add the heroes so that it becomes really effective, I think its use is in units of 10 or one of 30, but no, it's my opinion

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I played two small games agaist my friends fyreslayers using the new rules, and hearthguard berserkers are scary! And the army as a whole has become a lot better. His list wasn't at all optimal but neither where mind.

he had

10 vulkite berserkers

5 hearthguard with the axe

5 auric shootydudes

And a whole assortement of heroes including a magmadroth with a keyguy on it. 

My first list was throggoths and I won on objectives because my friend wanted to just test the damage his guys could deal and had we not played knife to the hearth that ended by turn 3 he would've tabled me hard.

my second list was a shooty/magicy stormcast list that really highlighted the weaknesses of the fyreslayers, yes the hearthguards could easily dispatch two groups of 5 sequitors worth double their points, but every turn he lost more heroes to my magic, longbow guys  and ballista and by the time he was close enough to engage his heroes where dead.

 

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2 hours ago, Warfiend said:

I played two small games agaist my friends fyreslayers using the new rules, and hearthguard berserkers are scary! And the army as a whole has become a lot better. His list wasn't at all optimal but neither where mind.

he had

10 vulkite berserkers

5 hearthguard with the axe

5 auric shootydudes

And a whole assortement of heroes including a magmadroth with a keyguy on it. 

My first list was throggoths and I won on objectives because my friend wanted to just test the damage his guys could deal and had we not played knife to the hearth that ended by turn 3 he would've tabled me hard.

my second list was a shooty/magicy stormcast list that really highlighted the weaknesses of the fyreslayers, yes the hearthguards could easily dispatch two groups of 5 sequitors worth double their points, but every turn he lost more heroes to my magic, longbow guys  and ballista and by the time he was close enough to engage his heroes where dead.

 

he should have used the wall of block line of sight? I assume no preists were used but incantation will help againt sniping characters. Also since Grimwrath and doomseekers are not leaders you can take a bunch of solo speed bumps.

Also the runeson on mag is amazing if you have 2 close to eachother since they let you reroll all hits even the magmadroth which is huge

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Posted (edited)

So I'm getting to work on my first dorfs, and I'm not a fan of the way the throwing axes look on the battleline guys. I know local games no one will care, but what about at bigger things like Warhammer world events or adepticon? I wanna go to those someday and I want to have no problems haha!

Edited by Ludicola

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Posted (edited)

Between the firewall, multiple ways to get save bonuses, the battlesmith artefact to ignore spells on a 4+, hit debuff prayer, allied Incantors, magmadroth rend reduction, a -1 wound auara lodge, 4+ ignore on berzerkers... Fyreslayers should be the most durable army against shooting and one of the best at dealing with magic.

Edited by PJetski
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Posted (edited)

Cute interaction in the Forge Brethren battalion. The +1 to save ability happens in your opponent's Hero phase and lasts until your hero phase, at least according to 2+ Tough. So if you get double turned you can have this buff up twice, perhaps even on the same unit... perhaps on a Smoldering Helm wielding Magmadad. :P

Edited by Mikarovic

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1 hour ago, Mikarovic said:

Cute interaction in the Forge Brethren battalion. The +1 to save ability happens in your opponent's Hero phase and lasts until your hero phase, at least according to 2+ Tough. So if you get double turned you can have this buff up twice, perhaps even on the same unit... perhaps on a Smoldering Helm wielding Magmadad. :P

This might be FAQ'd, but honestly, I'd like to see more anti-double-turn tech like this in other armies. If we're going to keep double turns around, it'd be nice to have some ability to protect yourself.

Also as someone mentioned above, we might finally be getting an elite army that can perform well, aside from Stormcast. Almost every "elite" army in AoS wanes when put up against horde-focused armies, for a variety of reasons. The problem is usually that fewer models who are only slightly better are outperformed by big units who are slightly worse. With Fyreslayers units looking like they'll be pretty beefy on multiple fronts (but with fewer models), they should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the big names in horde-play.

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Got my battletome. I'm heavily thrilled by that army. So many choices, don't know where to start...

 

Magmadroth heavy?

Hearthguard Berzerker Spam?

Shooty approach?

Elites?

which lodge...

 

No matter how strong this army might be, I enjoy the many routes you might go regarding army composition. 

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I really love the design of lodges in this army. I can see myself playing all of them. Even lodgeless army can work due to some really potent command traits.  Every lodge has at least one or two extremely useful tools at their disposal and they really encourage different army builds. I'd argue that Lofnir is the worst but it is still the best option for magmadroth and auric hearthguard -heavy lists. My personal favorite lodge is Hermdar, that command ability that allows melee activation at the start of combat phase is just awesome plus that -1 to wound command trait is pretty insane too.

All in all, this book feels pretty cool option-wise, I think gw really managed to at least encourage (even if they're not all viable) different army builds for fyreslayers.

I still kinda feel that they missed real opportunity with molten infernoth. Had gw removed it from the magmic incant. Box, replaced it with some other decent looking spell, and then put it in its own box with 1 extra hand and couple extra head -options, it would've been fantastic new unit for the army ('cause the model looks great).

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image.png.2fffad7bb78a8470ae7c3ddd8af0a9dc.png

Another interesting interaction: Volcanic Blood and an ability that rolls to ignore wounds.

Since they activate at the same time ("each time a wound is allocated to this model") and you control both abilities, you can roll for Volcanic Blood first and then check to see if you ignore the wound.

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So how viable is droth spam and what will a standard list look like? 

Thinking about selling my BCR for red dwarfs depending on what BCR gets in their update.

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Pretty excited to try a couple of lists, not 100% on the points cost yet but gonna try this on the weekend:

Lofnir

  • Runesmither on Magmadroth, Lofnir artefact, +1 Save Prayer
  • Runeson on Magmadroth
  • Runeson on Magmadroth 
  • Runemaster - General, +1 Save Prayer (for redundancy) 
  • Battlesmith - Spell immune 4+ artefact aura
  • 5 Auric Hearthguard
  • 5 Auric Hearthguard
  • 5 Auric Hearthguard
  • 15 Broadaxes Hearthguards
  • Forge Brethen
  • Flamespiter
  • Runicwall

Don't think you'll leave the magmahold without bringing some Hearthguard berzerkers. Those guys are choppy. Magmadroth will have at least 3+ save rerolling 1, a couple might have 2+ rerolling 1s. Would struggle against non-spell mortal wounds. 

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11 hours ago, Verminlord said:

So how viable is droth spam and what will a standard list look like?

To be honest, I think it´s not the best list. too few attacks / damage per point. The cheapest Magmadroth equals in 10 Hearthguard which seems to be the better buy most of the time.

That being said, I really love the models and will paint a bunch of them.

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18 hours ago, Hannibal said:

Hearthguard Berzerker Spam?

At 600pts per 30 your not spamming them lol

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I've definitely seen the new magmadroths put in some good work.  When you've got a Runefather swinging for 3 damage hits, with an artifact bonus, and all the other droth attacks, and the mortal wounds from breath/tail and Volcanic Blood dishing back  mortal wounds, it's a lot more damage added together than you might expect at first.

The ability to buff armor saves on Magmadroths combined with the extra wounds also makes them quite a bit less squishy than they used to be.

That said, I haven't seen a full Magmadroth list in action yet. Lofnir definitely is geared towards including Forge Brethren, but it's not the most intuitive build.

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I could totally see a bunch of Droths being a scary opposition as they have a lot of tools between breath attacks, some serious melee, blood taking down opponents when they get attacked and the tail swipe. Two (or three) runesons drothing about woulf be pretty scary, especially if they tag team units. You could also send up foot slogging sons to buff them. Maybe give them javelins and hurt monsters that may oppose them on their way in. Can't wait to try out Lofnir lists

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