AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[prochuvi]

Vulkites 160 points makes them ome of the worst units in the game.

Hardboys are same stats or better and are non competitive army. Vs wytches,reapers,trhalls,every aos2 battletome unit they are useless.

Also magmadroth dont getting 5++ as verminlords got makes them so bad as before.

 

Battlesmith have been nerfed into the ground

 

Hearthguard berzerkers are very good now and the way to play competitive is our unique build now.

 

All out of them is at aos1 levels

Edited April 13, 2019 by prochuvi

[Chikout]

53 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Vulkites 160 points makes them ome of the worst units in the game.

Hardboys are same stats or better and are non competitive army. Vs wytches,reapers,trhalls,every aos2 battletome unit they are useless.

 

I don't agree with this at all. The new beserk Fury ability is extremely useful against all the units that strike first. 

Against a gkot,  a unit of 20 vulkites may well die,  but before they do,  they will do an average of 12 wounds back. Give them sling Shields to do a couple of mortals, and charge them into a gkot and they have a very good chance of killing it. 

If you put them into the battalion that lets them auto run 6 and charge with plus one they make a great suicide squad. 

There are multiple ways to add one to save rolls, so against units that don't do mortals they make a great tar pit. 

[Gecktron]

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

Vulkites 160 points makes them ome of the worst units in the game.

Hardboys are same stats or better and are non competitive army. Vs wytches,reapers,trhalls,every aos2 battletome unit they are useless.

Vulkites are at least equal to, or better than Ardboyz. Their offensive output is higher and they are at least as resistance as Ardboyz. Slingsshields bring them to an 4+ save and this can get improved easily trough various abilities. The units you mentioned are glass canons with low resistance and not comparable to a more defensive unit of Vulkite Berserkers. They are far from the "worst unit" in the game. 

 

[Deepkin]

Have literally never seen prochuvi post anything that wasnt extremely negative, so can't say his opinion surprises me. 

[Azamar]

So this is a nasty one. One of the command trait/artefacts I’ve dabbled with before on my runefather on magmadroth was iron of the guardian  and the smouldering helm (aqshy artefact) 

as the new version of iron of the guardian is +1 save. this combined with a battlesmith would mean your runefather has a save of 2+, with a 4+ reflecting a mortal wound back at the target.  And of course the few wounds that do get through have a 4+ chance to inflict a mortal wound back as well. 

To further lose friends and alienate people you could combine that with one of the magmadroth traits (either the reroll 1s to save or the one that reduces rend would be a best).

I think this might be a teeny bit too much cheese for my local scene (plus I’m not buying a whole new book just to use the same setup I was already using), but if you frequently have skellies or ghouls with a gazillion attacks each thrown at you, just chuck that combo in to the mix and watch entire units wipe themselves out attacking you.  

[JonnyTheKing]

So what should I build my first 20 Vulkites and my 10 Hearthguard with do you think?

 

[JackStreicher]

30 Hearthguard with polearms

30 Hearthguard with polearms

30 Hearthguard with polearms

1x Battlesmith

1x Auric Runefather on Magmadroth - General

2x Heroes of any kind or a Battalion 

—-> 2000 Points, 199 Wounds minimum of which 180 will have a 4++

Auto win.

they control the board, they cover the board, they kill anything they touch.

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by JackStreicher
Spelling

[Neffelo]

Fyreslayers are looking very good, and I am happy for the faction. I am hoping this will drive sales for them and will mean in expanded model range in the future.

I'm going to wait to see how things play out, but there is a good chance I may be picking up this faction. I just need to sit down with the tome for a bit.

There really doesn't seem to be any duds in the army, except maybe the Runeson? Everything else seems quite good! 

 

[madmac]

13 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

Fyreslayers are looking very good, and I am happy for the faction. I am hoping this will drive sales for them and will mean in expanded model range in the future.

I'm going to wait to see how things play out, but there is a good chance I may be picking up this faction. I just need to sit down with the tome for a bit.

There really doesn't seem to be any duds in the army, except maybe the Runeson? Everything else seems quite good! 

 

Even the Runeson has his place. The one on foot has a really strong command ability, and the Magmadroth version is made to be used in pairs. Two Runesons in Magmadroth within 6" of each other both get to re-roll hits on all attacks, which is insane.  Can use the command ability strategically as a line breaker, too.

It's just that his weapon options are terrible.

16 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

30 Hearthguard with polearms

30 Hearthguard with polearms

30 Hearthguard with polearms

1x Battlesmith

1x Auric Runefather on Magmadroth - General

2x Heroes of any kind or a Battalion 

—-> 2000 Points, 199 Wounds minimum of which 180 will have a 4++

Auto win.

they control the board, they cover the board, they kill anything they touch.

That's, uh, 1800 points of Hearthguard, man.

Did you think they came in units of 10 for 120?

Change that to 2x30 for 1200 points and you still need a third battleline unit.

I think people are getting a little over-excited about Hearthguard. Yeah, they're a little undercosted but just taking away the horde bonus* which GW could easily do at any time hits them hard, and a little hero sniping goes a long way.

*Without the horde bonus you're looking at 1440 for two squads of 30. That alone and people will be running x20 instead.

Edited April 13, 2019 by madmac

[TheNotebookGM]

You know, nevermind, I have no idea what I want.

 

Edited to reflect my indecision.

Edited April 14, 2019 by TheNotebookGM
Indecision

[JackStreicher]

26 minutes ago, madmac said:

Even the Runeson has his place. The one on foot has a really strong command ability, and the Magmadroth version is made to be used in pairs. Two Runesons in Magmadroth within 6" of each other both get to re-roll hits on all attacks, which is insane.  Can use the command ability strategically as a line breaker, too.

It's just that his weapon options are terrible.

That's, uh, 1800 points of Hearthguard, man.

Did you think they came in units of 10 for 120?

Change that to 2x30 for 1200 points and you still need a third battleline unit.

I think people are getting a little over-excited about Hearthguard. Yeah, they're a little undercosted but just taking away the horde bonus* which GW could easily do at any time hits them hard, and a little hero sniping goes a long way.

*Without the horde bonus you're looking at 1440 for two squads of 30. That alone and people will be running x20 instead.

Sry, I thought the Azyr points were up to date.

2x30 and 10 normal battleline dudes.

still immortal...

 

 

 

the issue is that they‘re jacks of all trades and they excell in it. They‘ll absolutely tear apart any game. They‘re priced like a horde unit while being the Uber-elite.

Imo no matter how they cost it the unit needs a rewrite to „ONE mortal wound in addition“ or put their attacks down to 1.

edit: It‘s 100 pts for 5, right?

30 cost 480 pts?

 

 

Fyreslayer%20Test%20.pdf

Edited April 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[madmac]

Hmm.

2x30 Hearthguard Berserkers=1200 Points

10x Hearthguard Berserkers=240 Points

Runefather on Magmadroth= 280 Points

Battlesmith=140 Points

That's 1860 points for 3 units and two heroes.

You can at best squeeze in one more hero. Probably a Runesmiter for 120 Points, bringing you 1980

I'm not saying that's not an army with some strong points, and I do think Hearthguard are underpriced, but I'm not really sold on that build.

Overall, I'm just not worried about it. Next Generals Handbook comes out in a couple months, if Hearthguard are a big enough problem to cause an uproar they'll get tweaked in a hurry.

[madmac]

Hearthguard, both Aurics and Berserkers are 120 points for 5. You get a discount at 30, which is why it's 600 and not 720. (I fully expect the horde discount to be axed in short order)

Vulkites are 160 points for 10, and almost all heroes got their prices bumped 20-40 points. Battalions are a touch more expensive. Fyreslayers are quite a bit more expensive now than they used to be.

Honestly though, even if you're trying to milk Berserkers, the best build is probably still good old Lords of the Lodge for the one blob of 30 that can attack twice. (1280 points to fill out the battalion, giving some space for battleline and additional hero support) Trippling down on Berserkers is simply unnecessary.

Edited April 13, 2019 by madmac

[Mikeymajq]

Very suprised they only went up 20 pts. With how many +1 save buffs we get and offensive buffs they get pretty damn crazy. 

I actually agree they should probably loose the discount at max size because holy cow..

When it comes to Vulkites will you guys be running them in 10 man squads now? It feels so freeing to actually consider it

 

[ledha]

I'm very surprised by the hearthguard berserker. Every point cost seems fine and the internal balance looks good at a first glance, except the hearthguard berserkers, who are ridiculously undercosted and way better than everything else.

A bit like the evocators/sequitors in the stormcast battletome, very obviously above everything else.

120 pts for 10 wounds with a 5+ save (easy to improve) and a 4++, 2 attacks either rend-1/2 or with mortal wounds AND with a 2" range is absolutely insane.  I don't think any unit around this cost is at their level point/efficiency speaking.

[Chikout]

Yeah, enjoy your cheap bezerkers while you can. I could see them going up to 150 pretty soon.

[Mikeymajq]

Yeah 140-160 and I'd still take em but it would make doing a horde of elites unfeasable (as it should be). 

I'm actually very happy on the magmadroth changes, runesons on droths will be a lot of fun. Especially if you bring 2-3 of them as Lofnir and have some command points to spare. 

Auric hearthguard seem kind of insane with their CA too. Especially against scary monsters (of which there seems to be more and more lately..)

[Malakithe]

I dont see HB points changing. Its 120 per 5 with no max discount. Same cost if not higher then most other elite infantry. Tzaangors, Evocators, Blight Kings, Brutes...plus those spear squigs are 100pts per 5.

If anything Vulkites points will come down in the next GHB once they see all tournament lists with no Vulkites.

[TheNotebookGM]

So far I am between Greyfyrd and Hermdar for Lodges- I like the Magmadroths but the lore for my army is that of scavengers and vagabonds and I just don't see them as having a huge bench of the beasts, besides, I want to incorporate the Skywardens I have (I love those models and they are what brought me to AoS) and maybe some Gyrocopters or a Gunhauler (although I feel like the angels of better nature will shout this down since neither of these are known for their performances)

So far this is what I have (1180pts total)

Runefather on Magmadroth

Runesmiter on foot

Grimwrath Berserker

20 Vulkite Berserkers

5 Hearthguard Berserkers

6 KO Skywardens

With a generous reading of the Allies rules I can run a 1250 point game just fine using this list, and I want to get it up to 2k by November because I'll be attending my first GT. I like what I have so far (although I'd be willing to get rid of the 5 HGB for an Auric Hearthguard centered theme), I really just need to add 820 points to what is listed here- it doesn't have to be spectacular or terribly powerful, just something to have a good weekend away from home. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks now that we have alot more info to work with.

 

 

 

 

[Bozly]

So built in vulkits get +1 to their save in melee. Add a battlesmith and its +2.

 

It might have to be mixed order but hello sisters of the thorn. Bouncing mortals back on a 4+

 

[JackStreicher]

9 hours ago, Chikout said:

Yeah, enjoy your cheap bezerkers while you can. I could see them going up to 150 pretty soon.

GW is Ultra Slow concerning point adjustments. The entire SCE book has been out if balance due to bad point values and GW did not change it.

imo the berserkers are actually gamebreaking...

[j0lt]

On 3/31/2019 at 10:47 PM, Azamar said:

It’s a horde army with kits that are priced (in money terms) like elites. A bit like DOK witch elves but without enough clout in a competitive setting to attract the competitive crowd.  The start collecting kit helped a lot, but it’s relatively expensive to build an army, and the lack of variety means not many people want to see a full army through. 

If the new battletome drops the model count needed, that might see more players willing to take the plunge with them.

Love the models and the fluff, but this is exactly why I committed to other projects despite my love for the stunties.

Hopefully this release will rekindle the fyre to get the project I planned started again.

[ledha]

8 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I dont see HB points changing. Its 120 per 5 with no max discount. Same cost if not higher then most other elite infantry. Tzaangors, Evocators, Blight Kings, Brutes...plus those spear squigs are 100pts per 5.

If anything Vulkites points will come down in the next GHB once they see all tournament lists with no Vulkites.

compare them to namaarti thralls and sequitors or bloodwarriors for instance, who are in the same point range. 

 

[Chikout]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

GW is Ultra Slow concerning point adjustments. The entire SCE book has been out if balance due to bad point values and GW did not change it.

imo the berserkers are actually gamebreaking...

The points adjustments come in the ghb which is only a few months away now. The biggest concern is that the fyreslayers may have missed the printing deadline. 

Ghb 2019 will be the first points patch for AoS 2. Stormcast came out just after the last ghb. They were never going to change their points until ghb 2019.

 

[Miscast]

People need to calm down about the HGB's price until dice have actually been rolled, they were sub-par and meh before and now actually feel like an elite unit. Their output and sustain does look potentially scary but requires further points investments in bodies and heroes to it pull off. Also remember Duardin don't have natural free access to wizards and their potential MW output, so require it in other places. There is also no healing or summoning mechanic in the army so relying on  +1 to saves is a form of sustain. The overall model count in going to be much less than before so taking the horde approach won't give your enough heroes and aura's required to make the army function in the same design as it did before. 

Also remember before you were paying 100 points for 5 wounds 120 for 10 seems more fair the 160-200 bracket usually applies to 3 wound models.