AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[CaptainSoup]

1 hour ago, sloane_paints_stuff said:

Only one Fyreslayers player at Blood and Glory... why no representation? Is the uphill in 2.0 that steep for us?

I can take a broad guess with an even broader brush. Fyreslayers are in a state that many factions across AoS and 40k are in right now. They've been figured out. Everything you could ever possibly do effectively with the Fyreslayers has been tried and tested and in certain tournament scenarios, found wanting. You throw as many V. Beserkers on the table as you can, back them up with some buffing heroes, and pray to Grimnir that you'll survive the coming turns with your awesome saving throws and FNPs.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fyreslayers. They are naked dwarfs with mohawks that throw axes at people one minute, then grabs another axe from their loin cloth to swing with in combat. They are awesome.

But they are an older AoS army with a poorly written tome that has been around for a long time. Thanks to GHB they've become fairly good in the right hands, but it isn't enough. I believe in the competitive scene Fyreslayers aren't that interesting or strong enough a choice, people are bored of them.

...

That or it just so happened no one who attended B&D wanted to play Fyreslayers this time. Who knows, I'm just a skeleton! Ho ho ho!

Edited November 7, 2018 by CaptainSoup

[sloane_paints_stuff]

1 minute ago, CaptainSoup said:

I can take a broad guess with an even broader brush. Fyreslayers are in a state that many factions across AoS and 40k are in right now. They've been figured out. Everything you could ever possibly do effectively with the Fyreslayers has been tried and tested and in certain tournament scenarios, found wanting. You throw as many V. Beserkers on the table as you can, back them up with some buffing heroes, and pray to Grimnir that you'll survive the coming turns with your awesome saving throws and FNPs.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fyreslayers. They are naked dwarfs with mohawks that throw axes at people one minute, then grabs another axe from their loin cloth to swing with in combat. They are awesome.

But they are an older AoS army with a poorly written tome that has been around for a long time. Thanks to GHB they've become fairly good in the right hands, but it isn't enough. I believe in the competitive scene Fyreslayers aren't that interesting or strong enough a choice, they're bored of them.

...

That or it just so happened no one who attended B&D wanted to play Fyreslayers this time. Who knows, I'm just a skeleton! Ho ho ho!

So you think it's more a case of "its a faction you can see a mile away with no new tactics, very predictable and any competitive person would know how to counter in a tournament setting" rather than the usual "we have no magic so we're useless this meta"? Because I definitely am inclined to agree with you! I don't think on paper slayers are all that different to how we were last edition, its more just a case if you want to win a tournament (and B&G is a big deal tourny for competitive types) you'd take the more competitive factions.

As someone who has played a fair bit of competitive games run by a smart company i'm no stranger to revolving meta to up sales and what not but oh man do I hate it! haha i'm a romantic at heart and just want to run my beloved dwarfs and not feel like i've handicapped myself by running them despite taking the most tactical list I can formulate.

Maybe narrative is for me haha

[CaptainSoup]

3 minutes ago, sloane_paints_stuff said:

So you think it's more a case of "its a faction you can see a mile away with no new tactics, very predictable and any competitive person would know how to counter in a tournament setting" rather than the usual "we have no magic so we're useless this meta"? Because I definitely am inclined to agree with you! I don't think on paper slayers are all that different to how we were last edition, its more just a case if you want to win a tournament (and B&G is a big deal tourny for competitive types) you'd take the more competitive factions.

As someone who has played a fair bit of competitive games run by a smart company i'm no stranger to revolving meta to up sales and what not but oh man do I hate it! haha i'm a romantic at heart and just want to run my beloved dwarfs and not feel like i've handicapped myself by running them despite taking the most tactical list I can formulate.

Maybe narrative is for me haha

I guess that's one way of putting it, yeah lol.

Some magic denial would be nice for dwarfs, but at the end of the day it won't make or break anything, especially with the bread and butter VBs having an awesome defense. If you had to tho you can throw in one of those new zappy Stormcasts as an ally. An expensive magic denial but one none the less.

Like I said 40k has a very similar issue with some of their factions. Dark Angels for example are very figured out right now. There are one or two ways to build them and that's it, and its decent at best in the right hands just like Fyreslayers.

We can hope for upcoming changes to help but realistically GW is probably happy with the way Fyreslayers are right now and unless there is a mass exodus coming for older battlestomes, then I guess poor old Fyreslayers have to take the "L" this time.

[sloane_paints_stuff]

1 minute ago, CaptainSoup said:

I guess that's one way of putting it, yeah lol.

Some magic denial would be nice for dwarfs, but at the end of the day it won't make or break anything, especially with the bread and butter VBs having an awesome defense. If you had to tho you can throw in one of those new zappy Stormcasts as an ally. An expensive magic denial but one none the less.

Like I said 40k has a very similar issue with some of their factions. Dark Angels for example are very figured out right now. There are one or two ways to build them and that's it, and its decent at best in the right hands just like Fyreslayers.

We can hope for upcoming changes to help but realistically GW is probably happy with the way Fyreslayers are right now and unless there is a mass exodus coming for older battlestomes, then I guess poor old Fyreslayers have to take the "L" this time.

Yea there are options if you really want to push it into magic but honestly there's not a lot that we'd want from a spell caster outside of clutch dispells. We get a lot of buffs on our own as is

It's hopeful and probably clutching at straws but rumours abound of new tomes keep my fyre stoked haha

It's not going to stop me finishing my 2k fyreslayers list though of course!

[CaptainSoup]

4 minutes ago, sloane_paints_stuff said:

Yea there are options if you really want to push it into magic but honestly there's not a lot that we'd want from a spell caster outside of clutch dispells. We get a lot of buffs on our own as is

It's hopeful and probably clutching at straws but rumours abound of new tomes keep my fyre stoked haha

It's not going to stop me finishing my 2k fyreslayers list though of course!

Indeed! I got some burly dwarfs to paint myself. I'm thinking a burning blue kind of mohawk...

[CentralKarma]

On 11/6/2018 at 10:53 PM, CaptainSoup said:

Indeed! I got some burly dwarfs to paint myself. I'm thinking a burning blue kind of mohawk...

Can confirm the blue mohawks look amazing. 

 

I've done some of my heroes and hearthguard berzerkers with blue mohawks, to go a long with my white and blue magmadroth.  Give the whole army a fyre and ice theme. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

I think it's the fact that it is small faction (unit wise) with little variety and is expensive to collect as much as anything. One new dual-kit for Fyreslayers and Ironjawz would make both much more collectible and interesting to play. Ironjawz have remained more popular because there are no real alternatives in Destruction since release. Just my opinions of course.

[Malios]

I'll admit that I've been a large fan of the reimaged Duardin in Age of Sigmar from a fluff point. Both the Kharadron Overlords and Fyreslayers took a fresh perspective on "dwarfs" that was refreshing from the tolkein-esque standard that we've come to know in the genre.

From what I've seen locally, which isn't a hyper competitive crowd but likes a good scrap, fyreslayers never tend to do badly but also never tend to win spectacularly. This is partly because I agree with previous statements that the fyreslayers currently are a one trick pony: an extremely reliable pony in what they do (ie hordes of vulkite berserkers get in close and force multiply the grind until they win), but a pony that people have figured out due to time. Being a small, on release faction with three non-hero units (of which two are reliable and the third not so much), its hard not to be a one trick pony compared to newer factions like daughters of Khaine that have seven non-hero units and four "themed battalions" to play with.

I don't think any immediate fixes are warranted as Fyreslayers are not in dire straits, but an additional two units to the lineup, a re-review of the Hearthguard Beserkers and runemaster and a few additional lodge batallions or themes in line with  the Kharadron Overlords format would go a long way to reinvigorate the faction.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Malios

[Deepkin]

I think giving Hearthguard Berzerkers two attacks baseline would be a good way to go. Give Runemaster and Runesmiter access to a "Lore of Grimnir" style list of prayers, similar to the Lord-Relictor from Stormcast or the Slaughter-Priests from Khorne. Give Runemaster some better rules in general, particularly an unbind. Give us the "chapter tactics" rules all new factions have gotten for our lodges. Make Grimwrath Berzerkers a unit instead of a hero, 0-1 for the entire army, retain the same points cost but make it something like a unit of 1-5 hero models. Three Grimwraths would be 240 points for a unit that has 18 wounds, and can put out some serious hurt.

All that could be done without releasing new models, just a new tome ( or hell, an FAQ update, though that would be too nice even for new-GW). A single dual-kit that adds something like a chariot drawn by smaller magma dragons that can be built as either a heavy melee chariot or some kind of ranged one with a goblin-hewer-esque axe thrower on the back would be cool, and fit the "barbarian" aesthetic of the fyreslayers.

[Gmburg]

On 11/7/2018 at 1:47 AM, sloane_paints_stuff said:

It's hopeful and probably clutching at straws but rumours abound of new tomes keep my fyre stoked haha

Speaking of new tomes... as a store co-owner we currently can't order fyreslayer battletomes or skaven and a few others because they are being updated for 2.0. This is what we were told by our GW rep at least.

 

I am very new to the hobby but I am having a ton of fun with the fyreslayers.

 

[Aeryenn]

4 hours ago, Gmburg said:

Speaking of new tomes... as a store co-owner we currently can't order fyreslayer battletomes or skaven and a few others because they are being updated for 2.0. This is what we were told by our GW rep at least. 

What others? Please tell. 

[CaptainSoup]

5 hours ago, Gmburg said:

Speaking of new tomes... as a store co-owner we currently can't order fyreslayer battletomes or skaven and a few others because they are being updated for 2.0. This is what we were told by our GW rep at least.

 

I am very new to the hobby but I am having a ton of fun with the fyreslayers.

 

If this is true then at the very least they'll update the books to match what has been in the last few GHBs. If we're lucky they'll put in other updates as the assumed new books come out but I wouldn't hold your breath too long.

[Aeryenn]

What I believe Fyreslayers need to be more popular among players is more diversity in their ranks. Painting 70-or-so naked dwarfs is hard for me to imagine. Some magmadroth cavalery, fire golems, earth/fire/magma elementals, more focus on runes. Something that stands out of their current range. 

[Hannibal]

On 11/11/2018 at 12:09 PM, Aryann said:

What I believe Fyreslayers need to be more popular among players is more diversity in their ranks. Painting 70-or-so naked dwarfs is hard for me to imagine.

That´s the reason why I´ve refused to collect them. Second reason is that I would like to field an army mixed of Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth (love them both due to the look of the models) but I simply can´t find a nice list...

[Kharneth]

I want to buy the start collecting box for fyreslayers and I was wondering how to build/equip everything. What would you guys recommend? 

[Almace038]

As far as Vulkites go, all of their weapon options are decent, the Picks and Slingshields are quite nice against high armor/big things, and the paired axes are quite nice for more aggressive damage output in melee with other battleline. 

[angrycontra]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

I want to buy the start collecting box for fyreslayers and I was wondering how to build/equip everything. What would you guys recommend? 

For magmadroth, technically all options are decent, however, runesmiter one is usually the best option. Problem is though that taking runesmiter on foot is better than taking one on magma. Runefather magma is good as general if you want hg berzerkers as battleline (or you want to wield lords of lodge battalion), while runeson magma is best if you're planning to take warrior kinband battalion. For weapon options for runeson magma, it really doesn't matter, axe is better melee while javelin is decent at range (if it ever hit/wound the target...).

For vulkites as mentioned above, any options are good. Axes are actually better these days than they used to be, thanks to the existence of nighthaunt. One mention though (if it wasn't obvious): Vulkites are only really good at units of 30. At units of 20 they're ok but don't just have the same staying power, at msu (10) they are bad and die like flies. This is of course thanks to their ability which gives them better bonus feel-no-pain-save the more you have (something I actually wish were to change in future battletome, so annoying to waste 300+p for every battleline in this army).

[Kharneth]

Are Fyreslayers a very hero-heavy army (like Blades of Khorne)? The plan is to use the starter box by itself for a bit, but if 10 Vulkites are trash alone it might be the best idea. The box comes with a runesmiter on foot, so got that. Are the Runefather and Runeson different models? Perhaps I'll keep the rider unbuilt or unattached to the mount and try out some different versions. 

Do Fyreslayers have any "mandatory" battalions or any decent/good ones? I take it lords of lodge and warrior kinband are at least worth considering? 

[CaptainSoup]

45 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Are Fyreslayers a very hero-heavy army (like Blades of Khorne)? The plan is to use the starter box by itself for a bit, but if 10 Vulkites are trash alone it might be the best idea. The box comes with a runesmiter on foot, so got that. Are the Runefather and Runeson different models? Perhaps I'll keep the rider unbuilt or unattached to the mount and try out some different versions. 

Do Fyreslayers have any "mandatory" battalions or any decent/good ones? I take it lords of lodge and warrior kinband are at least worth considering? 

To put simply, there is only one effective way to play Fyreslayers right now, and that is to put as many Vulkite Berserkers on the table as you can, then buff them with heroes. With enough buffs the VBs become really tough to take off the table. Magmadroths are in most cases not worth their points as the only reason to bring them would be to buff the VBs, so you could only get away with putting at most two on the table. 

The only other reason you would consider bringing other units would be if you plan on countering an army you know you will be facing, but even then Fyreslayers are not really spoiled for choices. 

So while yes Heroes are really important to a Fyreslayer army, they will always play second fiddle to your VBs which will be doing most of the work. 

Runefather and Runeson are different models as they provide different buffs. Also remember that the buffs they give differ depending on if they are on a Magmadroth or not. 

I would argue that their Battalions are decent but none are actually required. Also remember that they have additional battalions from the GHB which combines their better battalions together. 

[Kharneth]

59 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

To put simply, there is only one effective way to play Fyreslayers right now, and that is to put as many Vulkite Berserkers on the table as you can, then buff them with heroes. With enough buffs the VBs become really tough to take off the table. Magmadroths are in most cases not worth their points as the only reason to bring them would be to buff the VBs, so you could only get away with putting at most two on the table. 

The only other reason you would consider bringing other units would be if you plan on countering an army you know you will be facing, but even then Fyreslayers are not really spoiled for choices. 

So while yes Heroes are really important to a Fyreslayer army, they will always play second fiddle to your VBs which will be doing most of the work. 

Runefather and Runeson are different models as they provide different buffs. Also remember that the buffs they give differ depending on if they are on a Magmadroth or not. 

I would argue that their Battalions are decent but none are actually required. Also remember that they have additional battalions from the GHB which combines their better battalions together. 

Does that mean a Runefather is a very important hero so the berzerkers are battleline? (is there a difference between Vulkites and Vulkite Berzerkers)

What about having a Runefather on a magmadroth and runesmiter on foot? Having at least 1 magmadroth is good, yeah? 

To be honest, I'm buying this for my friend. I'd like to get it built and painted for him, so I want to make the correct modeling decisions. He plays 40k but hasn't played AoS and I don't know Fyreslayers. Our group has Skaven, Idoneth Deepkin, Maggotkin/Slaves, Disciples of Tzeentch, and Free Guild. 

I appreciate the insights. I've asked him to look at the units and battalions to see if there's anything he'd like. 

[CaptainSoup]

39 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Does that mean a Runefather is a very important hero so the berzerkers are battleline? (is there a difference between Vulkites and Vulkite Berzerkers)

What about having a Runefather on a magmadroth and runesmiter on foot? Having at least 1 magmadroth is good, yeah? 

To be honest, I'm buying this for my friend. I'd like to get it built and painted for him, so I want to make the correct modeling decisions. He plays 40k but hasn't played AoS and I don't know Fyreslayers. Our group has Skaven, Idoneth Deepkin, Maggotkin/Slaves, Disciples of Tzeentch, and Free Guild. 

I appreciate the insights. I've asked him to look at the units and battalions to see if there's anything he'd like. 

There are two units with the name "Berzerker" in it, the "Hearthguard" and the "Vulkite." The Berzerkers I mentioned before were of the "Vulkite" variety. They are battleline regardless of who the general is. 

I could be wrong, but I think the general consensus is the Runefather on Magma is better than being on foot while the Runeson can be decent on Magma and on foot. This is all depending on what you think your army needs more of if anything. Keep in mind this is purely from their command abilities and nothing else, so if you don't have enough command points to use the abilities then there isn't a point and bringing them anyway. 

[Kharneth]

23 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

There are two units with the name "Berzerker" in it, the "Hearthguard" and the "Vulkite." The Berzerkers I mentioned before were of the "Vulkite" variety. They are battleline regardless of who the general is. 

I could be wrong, but I think the general consensus is the Runefather on Magma is better than being on foot while the Runeson can be decent on Magma and on foot. This is all depending on what you think your army needs more of if anything. Keep in mind this is purely from their command abilities and nothing else, so if you don't have enough command points to use the abilities then there isn't a point and bringing them anyway. 

Sometimes there is the advantage of having the option of using on command ability or the other in a given situation. Do lists often have extra command points either from battalions or points? 

Sounds like the smartest thing to do would be to make a Runefather on Magmadroth, Runesmiter and Runeson on foot (since those are not optional). I'm intentionally avoiding reading the Fyreslayer rules so we're both surprised by each other's armies when we battle. I might have to get him to look at the book and decide which command abilities and weapons he prefers. 

[CaptainSoup]

6 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Sometimes there is the advantage of having the option of using on command ability or the other in a given situation. Do lists often have extra command points either from battalions or points? 

Sounds like the smartest thing to do would be to make a Runefather on Magmadroth, Runesmiter and Runeson on foot (since those are not optional). I'm intentionally avoiding reading the Fyreslayer rules so we're both surprised by each other's armies when we battle. I might have to get him to look at the book and decide which command abilities and weapons he prefers. 

That's true. You could always use some battalions or shave off 50 points or so to have an extra CP, that would be up to the player. 

Don't forget to consider the Battlesmith, He is probably the best force multiplier in the army by allowing units (ignoring the wholly within rule) to reroll all saves. You give that to your VBs and you'll be hard pressed to find a tankier unit on the field. 

[Kharneth]

8 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

That's true. You could always use some battalions or shave off 50 points or so to have an extra CP, that would be up to the player. 

Don't forget to consider the Battlesmith, He is probably the best force multiplier in the army by allowing units (ignoring the wholly within rule) to reroll all saves. You give that to your VBs and you'll be hard pressed to find a tankier unit on the field. 

That does sound useful, but the starter box doesn't come with one. That'd be up to my friend as he's expanding, which sounds like it'll involve buying a lot of vulkite berzerkers lol. He'll have a Runefather (smiter or son) on Magmadroth,  a runesmiter and runeson on foot, and 10 vulkite berzerkers. 

In terms of choosing a general, is any hero more suited for this role (I'd assume Runefather is the designed general) and in regards to the command traits are there any reasons why a general would be better off on a magmadroth or on foot? Or does the decisions mostly revolve around which command abilities you prefer? 

[CaptainSoup]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

That does sound useful, but the starter box doesn't come with one. That'd be up to my friend as he's expanding, which sounds like it'll involve buying a lot of vulkite berzerkers lol. He'll have a Runefather (smiter or son) on Magmadroth,  a runesmiter and runeson on foot, and 10 vulkite berzerkers. 

In terms of choosing a general, is any hero more suited for this role (I'd assume Runefather is the designed general) and in regards to the command traits are there any reasons why a general would be better off on a magmadroth or on foot? Or does the decisions mostly revolve around which command abilities you prefer? 

In my opinion choosing whether to use a Magmadroth or not would depending on which Command Ability you want to use and maybe have the Magmadroth be a distraction carnifex, though on second thought that probably isn't smart since you want him alive. 

As for command traits, remember that the army is built around propping up the Berzerkers so traits like Fury of the Fyreslayers, Exemplar of the Ancestor and Spirit of Grimnir would be your go-to traits to pick. Your heroes (except for the single hero berzerker. Don't get your berzerkers confused!) will want to stay behind your VBs most of the time to stay alive so they wont be seeing much battle unless they have to.