AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[plavski]

11 hours ago, Xasto said:

Anybody knows what was the list that took fourth at Shefield Slaughter? Ran by Andy Hughes

Hermdar

Runemaster general, salamander cloak, warrior indominate, ember storm

Runesmiter, prayer of ash

Runefather, tyrant slayer

Bsmith, nulsidian

3 x 5 auric hearthguard

2 x 20 hearthguard berserkers

Runic firewall

LotL, Forge Brethren

1980pts

[Blisterfeet]

Hey fellow urgold addicts. I have finished my first SC box and have fallen big style for painting magmadroth! 🔥

Anyone help a crazy guy out coming up with a Lofnir list that I could take to future events (don't own a book, search in this forum proved fruitless).

Not looking to those top tables just something that in a pinch might scrap 1 or maybe 2 wins in a 2day event (depending on play of course). 

Love to run as many big beasties as possible but I know the strength of Hermdar and Vostarg in the competitive scene and don't want to overly handicap myself 😁👍

Thanks in advance

[Kantchill]

On 2/18/2020 at 6:55 PM, Phasteon said:

I know, I just realized after doing the math that Poleaxes are NEVER better or even equal than Broadaxes. Maybe against a 2+ Save rerollable but cmon

 

41 Attacks equals in 6-7 6s so 12-14 MWs. 

Not worth the damage of 2 and always having -1 imo. 

And NH are no threat anyway, so building Poleaxes just in case is no concern for me 😂

I don't think that's 100% true tho, and that's why we usually see one or two blocks of Broadaxes (usually one in LotL) and a block of Poleaxes. 

Check out the mathhammer I did below. This is based on a squad of 10 tho and not accounting for the Karl, but approximately the same applies to a squad of 20. The average Mortal Wound output for a block of 10 is statistically speaking 3,3  so I included both 6 and 8 Mortal Wounds as a possibility. 

You can see that an unsupported unit of Poleaxes can perform better then an unsupported block of Broadaxes against targets with a good save. Which means that if you need a unit to target elite or good save enemies, Poleaxes are the better option (assuming that you allready have a unit of Broadaxes inside your LotL). 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Kantchill

[Phasteon]

10 minutes ago, Kantchill said:

I don't think that's 100% true tho, and that's why we usually see one or two blocks of Broadaxes (usually one in LotL) and a block of Poleaxes. 

Check out the mathhammer I did below. This is based on a squad of 10 tho and not accounting for the Karl, but approximately the same applies to a squad of 20. The average Mortal Wound output for a block of 10 is statistically speaking 3,3  so I included both 6 and 8 Mortal Wounds as a possibility. 

You can see that an unsupported unit of Poleaxes can perform better then an unsupported block of Broadaxes against targets with a good save. Which means that if you need a unit to target elite or good save enemies, Poleaxes are the better option (assuming that you allready have a unit of Broadaxes inside your LotL). 

 

 

And now lets put mathhammer aside and be a bit more realistic about it. 

All those numbers are pretty close but those broadaxes don‘t rely on a „proc“ ability that deals MWs, so if you can make them reroll 6s to hit or have protection against MWs (which most elite units have) you basically nullify the output of Poleaxes. 

Archaon does even both. So a unit of Poleaxes will never be able to realistically hurt him while Broadaxes will slaughter him in one go. 

There will be some cases where those Poleaxes might outperform by a few points of damage but the cases are so rare that I just wouldnt bother and still go for the Broadaxe.

[Kantchill]

1 minute ago, Phasteon said:

And now lets put mathhammer aside and be a bit more realistic about it. 

All those numbers are pretty close but those broadaxes don‘t rely on a „proc“ ability that deals MWs, so if you can make them reroll 6s to hit or have protection against MWs (which most elite units have) you basically nullify the output of Poleaxes. 

Archaon does even both. So a unit of Poleaxes will never be able to realistically hurt him while Broadaxes will slaughter him in one go. 

There will be some cases where those Poleaxes might outperform by a few points of damage but the cases are so rare that I just wouldnt bother and still go for the Broadaxe.

I know we shouldn't rely on mathhammer entirely, but are there really so much units that let you re-roll 6s to hit? Maybe they're just not being played much in my local meta, but I barely encounter them. 

And this is indeed not taking shrugg saves into account, so you're right that the results are probably even more leaning towards broadaxes... 

Hmm, my unit of 10 Poleaxes is still unprimed, maybe I should rebould them with Broadaxes... 😑

[Gwendar]

I just planned to magnetize.. easily done by just magnetizing the weapon heads between broadaxes, poleaxes and magmapikes.

The bottom line here is that one can be better against certain targets but overall the broadaxes are probably always the best option considering what's out there. Magnetizing is really the best thing you can do anyway because you never know what can change in the next GHB coming this summer; for all we know the axes get nerfed and Auric Hearthguard drop points and get +1 to hit and we turn into a shooting army 😅

[Phasteon]

34 minutes ago, Kantchill said:

I know we shouldn't rely on mathhammer entirely, but are there really so much units that let you re-roll 6s to hit? Maybe they're just not being played much in my local meta, but I barely encounter them. 

I wouldnt necessarily say many, but sadly those units Poleaxes look good against on paper (eg Mortek Guard) are quite resilient against it (potential 5++ followed by 6++ followed by 4+ with Harvester, 1 Spell gives reroll 6s to hit) so I‘ve come to the conclussion that I rather have -1 rend 2 damage against everything than a chance to do a lot of mortals and otherwise rolling like Vulkite Berzerkers with Axes. 

[Kantchill]

9 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

I wouldnt necessarily say many, but sadly those units Poleaxes look good against on paper (eg Mortek Guard) are quite resilient against it (potential 5++ followed by 6++ followed by 4+ with Harvester, 1 Spell gives reroll 6s to hit) so I‘ve come to the conclussion that I rather have -1 rend 2 damage against everything than a chance to do a lot of mortals and otherwise rolling like Vulkite Berzerkers with Axes. 

 Fair enough, I came to that conclusion as well after reading your previous post and rethinking it.  

 

18 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I just planned to magnetize.. easily done by just magnetizing the weapon heads between broadaxes, poleaxes and magmapikes.

The bottom line here is that one can be better against certain targets but overall the broadaxes are probably always the best option considering what's out there. Magnetizing is really the best thing you can do anyway because you never know what can change in the next GHB coming this summer; for all we know the axes get nerfed and Auric Hearthguard drop points and get +1 to hit and we turn into a shooting army 😅

Yeah I prefer magnets as well. I fully magnetised my Magmadroth and the heroes and weapons options. But the weapon heads of the Berzekers look way to fragile for a large enough magnet.

I used really small ones to magnetize the weapon options on the Runeson and Runesmiter for example (see attached), but I don't think the Poleaxes will hold on that magnet size... If there's even enough size to put them. There's also the problem of the L-shape of the heads and the handle. 

How do you plan on doing it? 

EDIT: The Magmapikes are completely different arms anyways, so I would only try to magnetize the different Axes. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Kantchill

[Gwendar]

29 minutes ago, Kantchill said:

How do you plan on doing it? 

Not sure honestly.. I've heard others doing it but wasn't sure how. Worse case scenario I don't, use all Broadaxes and then if any changes happen and I want Poleaxes I just clip them off, reattach and repaint. Which... that's what I had to do with my Stormfiends once they changed with the battletome and everyone swapped to Ratlings and Windlaunchers 😅

[Phasteon]

Well, I think its safe to say that we are stuck with the current rules for the next years. 

Which I‘m fine with, the only Warscroll that really sucks is the Runemaster, but he can be fixed by reducing his points to 80. 

Everything else is just a matter of points as well. 

Would be cool though if they reworked the Runemaster and made him finally look like the master compared to the Smiter who does everything better for the same cost. 

They needed to change the master‘s inbuilt prayer to something actually useful. 

Edit: If he gave the terrain feature the LoS blocking Aqshy firestarter effect instead of deadly, THAT would be awesome! 

That would be 2 possible ways of blocking los for enemy shooting. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Phasteon

[Kantchill]

I don't expect more then point changes untill a new battletome indeed.  And that's propably in 2021 at earliest. And since they didn't split the Poleaxes and Broadaxes to different warscrolls (like Kurnoth Hunters for example), I think the weapon options will always be the same points as well. 

[plavski]

We'll just get new rules in the big Order Soul Wars campaign book.

[plavski]

21 minutes ago, xking said:

What Order Soul Wars campaign book? You know something we don't?

We just had the big Chaos Soul Wars book. We'll get Order, Death, and Destruction allegiance updates in the course of time. This is the AoS Psychic Awakening - new rules coming via campaign books.

[deumosd]

7 hours ago, Kantchill said:

Fair enough, I came to that conclusion as well after reading your previous post and rethinking it.  

 

Wish I had looked into all this before I built and just finished painting up my 30x poleaxes!!!!! I just liked the idea of the mortal wounds from them- oh well I will give them ago at some point and see how they do.

hopefully they will be ok- not sure I can face painting up another 30/40 fyreslayers as I finally get to the point of finishing my army.

[Phasteon]

19 minutes ago, deumosd said:

Wish I had looked into all this before I built and just finished painting up my 30x poleaxes!!!!! I just liked the idea of the mortal wounds from them- oh well I will give them ago at some point and see how they do.

hopefully they will be ok- not sure I can face painting up another 30/40 fyreslayers as I finally get to the point of finishing my army.

They are not unplayably bad, the broadaxes are just more reliable in almost every situation imo. 

[deumosd]

8 hours ago, Phasteon said:

They are not unplayably bad, the broadaxes are just more reliable in almost every situation imo.

Thanks for that- not a worried now.

Will give them a run out and see what happens.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, deumosd said:

Thanks for that- not a worried now.

Will give them a run out and see what happens.

The way I see it, the bottom line is that while the math works out one way over another.. Poleaxes are just another tool in the box. A lot of the time, they're still going to be better at dealing with those Ethereal Amulet Stonehorns, Terrorgheists, Maw Krushas, etc because they don't really care about your -1 to -3 rend. I feel like Poleaxes need less support and thus can act a bit better on their own if needed.. if there isn't any of the above targets around, they're still great at killing units with poor saves while the Broadaxes deal with everything else.

I think this initial conversation was just hinged on what was the better unit for LotL which I would say is Broadaxes.. but I still think there's a point to having a unit of Poleaxes to answer certain problems if they present themselves; and there's been a lot of the above targets showing up in the meta.

[plavski]

It's rare to see a top table Fyreslayers list that isn't 20 x Broadaxes, 20 x Polearms. In a TAC tournament list, having a way to bypass saves is important lest you get screwed by Archaon or Overpowering Stench.

[Phasteon]

28 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

The way I see it, the bottom line is that while the math works out one way over another.. Poleaxes are just another tool in the box. A lot of the time, they're still going to be better at dealing with those Ethereal Amulet Stonehorns, Terrorgheists, Maw Krushas, etc because they don't really care about your -1 to -3 rend. I feel like Poleaxes need less support and thus can act a bit better on their own if needed.. if there isn't any of the above targets around, they're still great at killing units with poor saves while the Broadaxes deal with everything else.

I think this initial conversation was just hinged on what was the better unit for LotL which I would say is Broadaxes.. but I still think there's a point to having a unit of Poleaxes to answer certain problems if they present themselves; and there's been a lot of the above targets showing up in the meta.

But all those units you listed still have a way to ignore MWs and will likely not take much damage from the normal poleaxe attacks, at which point you rely on 6s to hit. 

The broadaxes will still (against a 3+ unrendable save) deal enough damage (due to 2 damage) to take down those threats more reliable due to volume of attacks. (Poleaxes require even MORE attacks to deal estimated damage because they rely completely on 6s to hit). 

Again, the poleaxes are a tool, you are right with that, but its comparing a very specific cutting tool thats maybe efficient to cut some special material with a lightsaber that just cuts everything equally good. 

[Phasteon]

4 minutes ago, plavski said:

It's rare to see a top table Fyreslayers list that isn't 20 x Broadaxes, 20 x Polearms. In a TAC tournament list, having a way to bypass saves is important lest you get screwed by Archaon or Overpowering Stench.

Archaon is practically immune to Poleaxes. 

He lets them reroll 6s to hit AND has a 4+ Save against Mws

[plavski]

5 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Archaon is practically immune to Poleaxes. 

He lets them reroll 6s to hit AND has a 4+ Save against Mws

Yeah, my brain got muddled for a second there. Broadaxes are for those guys, polearms are for the rend ignoring stupid ass Ishlaen guard.

[Gwendar]

7 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

But all those units you listed still have a way to ignore MWs and will likely not take much damage from the normal poleaxe attacks, at which point you rely on 6s to hit. 

The broadaxes will still (against a 3+ unrendable save) deal enough damage (due to 2 damage) to take down those threats more reliable due to volume of attacks. (Poleaxes require even MORE attacks to deal estimated damage because they rely completely on 6s to hit). 

Again, the poleaxes are a tool, you are right with that, but its comparing a very specific cutting tool thats maybe efficient to cut some special material with a lightsaber that just cuts everything equally good. 

If you have the LotL unit (Broadaxes) hitting them twice then sure.. but on 1 pile-in, on average those Broadaxes aren't killing any of that in 1-go. If we take a 3+ save with 0 rend (ethereal) into account then Poleaxes are on average going to do more; even with a 5+ FNP save. Could you roll no 6's or they make good saves? Sure.. but that's the game. To me, there's a reason people bring 20 of each.. seldom are you seeing all them be Broadaxes and do well comparatively to 50/50 of each. 

Cases like Nurgle or Archaon forcing re-rolls of 6 are specific things that.. yeah, Broadaxes are going to better.

[Phasteon]

34 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

If you have the LotL unit (Broadaxes) hitting them twice then sure.. but on 1 pile-in, on average those Broadaxes aren't killing any of that in 1-go. If we take a 3+ save with 0 rend (ethereal) into account then Poleaxes are on average going to do more; even with a 5+ FNP save. Could you roll no 6's or they make good saves? Sure.. but that's the game. To me, there's a reason people bring 20 of each.. seldom are you seeing all them be Broadaxes and do well comparatively to 50/50 of each. 

Cases like Nurgle or Archaon forcing re-rolls of 6 are specific things that.. yeah, Broadaxes are going to better.

Now you say that Broadaxes are better in a „rare“ case, which is the direct opposite of the thing the mathhammer showed. 

Its a rare case were poleaxes MIGHT perform better, but still not in a way that makes Broadaxes a „worse“ choice.

 

Edit: But its not worthwile discussing it tbh, I get why people play Poleaxes, I just see no reason for it personally, but thats my opinion.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Phasteon

[deumosd]

Looks like I might still need to paint another 20 then.

Just when I thought I was nearly done 😂 

Edited February 26, 2020 by deumosd

[Phasteon]

11 hours ago, deumosd said:

Looks like I might still need to paint another 20 then.

Just when I thought I was nearly done 😂 

I thought so too... But on the + side, I can finally play the Vostarg Grandfyrd Battalion 😄👍🏻

But to be fair, I play in a mostly casual environment so if I‘d want to play Poleaxes I could just use my Broadaxes as counts as. 

I personally don‘t like it but everyone else is doing so anyway so it‘s not a big deal. 

 

Another thing to fellow Vostarg players: 

Do you use Bael-Grimnir? 

I really like the character but I think the Warscroll is lacking... I mostly use the custom Scroll for a Runefather on Magmadroth and call him „Bael-Grimnir“ , as losing the Vostarg trait really sucks and playing a Runefather and not making him the general hurts my „fluff feels“ 😕 I wish Baels CA wasnt that crappy....

Edit: They should have ruled it „other Vostarg UNIT“ - this way Vostarg would definately be in line with Hermdar as on a 4+ fighting during Herophase with any unit could be awesome

Edited February 27, 2020 by Phasteon