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Well I am quite happy, now we can play the Vulkites in various ways, the Herthguard seems to be the key in the competitive environment, but it is still too early to say, now we can use the Magmadroth more than ever and the heroes simply have a different approach (which at least for me is very good)

Having said that, I understand the people who had 120 Vulkites in their house and now (for the moment, in the absence of seeing the book) they do not see the same use, but what is said is still soon, I see them for example on the screen. typical hard bug (Terror flesh eater), sure you think twice before loading 2 screens of vulkites that when killed (which will kill) attacked 20 pissed off dwarves .....

and we need to see the objects, the lodges ..... remember that the authentic good thing of the book of the flesh eater for example, is in the different houses .....

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Have literally never seen prochuvi post anything that wasnt extremely negative, so can't say his opinion surprises me. 

Magmadroth finished!!! For Grimnir!  

WIP of my Magmadroth! I'm currently done with the 'skin'. Now  I just need to do the head and all the horns/claws (they will get a bone-colour) and Ur-Gold runes. I'm going for more classic lizzard/dr

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3 hours ago, Chikout said:

The points adjustments come in the ghb which is only a few months away now. The biggest concern is that the fyreslayers may have missed the printing deadline. 

Ghb 2019 will be the first points patch for AoS 2. Stormcast came out just after the last ghb. They were never going to change their points until ghb 2019.

 

You just confirmed what I said. One point fix a year (especially if they keep slapping points on units as lazily as in the past) simply isn‘t enough.

 

I‘d like to see a batrep though in which s.o. Abuses the hell out of those Hearthguard since I can see no way any army can beat 2 unit’s of 30

(they hold objectives, have a huge footprint so they can actually hold 2 per 30, they cover a big portion of the map, they just don‘t die, they‘ve 60 wounds that are too hard to kill, they have mass, they have absurd damage already if they‘re unbuffed)

Edited by JackStreicher
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3 hours ago, Chikout said:

The points adjustments come in the ghb which is only a few months away now. The biggest concern is that the fyreslayers may have missed the printing deadline. 

Ghb 2019 will be the first points patch for AoS 2. Stormcast came out just after the last ghb. They were never going to change their points until ghb 2019.

 

Even DoK missed the GHB 2018 point change right? And they came out pretty early 2018.

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3 hours ago, j0lt said:

Love the models and the fluff, but this is exactly why I committed to other projects despite my love for the stunties.

Hopefully this release will rekindle the fyre to get the project I planned started again.

Everything else aside, this is definitely true. They're not the horde army they used to be and I don't see the days of 90x Vulkites every coming back.

Looking at my fairly modest Fyreslayer investment, for example. I have 40 vulkites, 20 HGB in groups of 10, and 15 Aurics.

That's 640+480+360 or 1480 points worth of just troops in 75 models. Realistically I'll never even field that many guys on the table simultaneously. Likewise my 4 Magmadroths represent 1060 points worth of leadership, My little questing band of 2 Grimwrath+Doomseeker heroes is 300 points, ect.

I've got enough guys for multiple builds and any battalion and that's enough for me.

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2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I'm far more concerned about stacking save bonuses

I mean they faq'd Skullcannons not getting extra attacks from wrathmongers, if it becomes a problem they'll slap it down. (even though people do say that was an unfair treatment)

When it comes to "vague" RAI vs RAW rules, I always try to take the safe bet that something sounds too good to be true.

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11 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I mean they faq'd Skullcannons not getting extra attacks from wrathmongers, if it becomes a problem they'll slap it down. (even though people do say that was an unfair treatment)

Because we never got the chance to test it. Considering the copy & paste errors within the new BoK book, neither did the developers.

The funniest thing is, that one of the developers said that Wrathmongers buffing the cannons was intended when asked on stream...

At least, it seems that the guys working on Fyreslayers were a lot more passionate about the army than the interns scraping together the last couple Khorne books.

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Actually a well buffed unit of 30 hb with hermdar Lodge, Lord of the lodge battalion and buff from 2 priest and battlesmith coul be an horror like this:

2+ rerollable save, 4+ fnp, - 1 to be hit - 1 to be wounded, fight 2x phase and unbreakable 

And thats not even accounting for rune Alliance ability or specific magical items. 

Regarding the wolly within the runefhather on maghmadrot with 24"diameter and large base will have no problem, the battlesmith can take standard to augment his range to 18 with 36 diameter. 

Edited by Arael
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1 hour ago, madmac said:

Everything else aside, this is definitely true. They're not the horde army they used to be and I don't see the days of 90x Vulkites every coming back.

Looking at my fairly modest Fyreslayer investment, for example. I have 40 vulkites, 20 HGB in groups of 10, and 15 Aurics.

That's 640+480+360 or 1480 points worth of just troops in 75 models. Realistically I'll never even field that many guys on the table simultaneously. Likewise my 4 Magmadroths represent 1060 points worth of leadership, My little questing band of 2 Grimwrath+Doomseeker heroes is 300 points, ect.

I've got enough guys for multiple builds and any battalion and that's enough for me.

Yes, all the reviews I've read have convinced me that they have gone back in the right direction 👌🏻

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Let's allow the faction be out for a couple months before crying "OP." People are smart and find counters to things, that's what's going on with Gristlegore and Skaven right now. New rules need time to breath on the tables. So maybe we all calm down and enjoy the wash of excitement that we'll have yet another dope army to play with/against.

Edited by Mutton
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I agree that hearthguards berzerers are very nice.

 

But a nerf in points isnt probable because we have in aos2 many units that are so good or better and havent nerfed.

 

Per example the new goblin knigths in squigs have been around months and are very very similar to hearthguard.

 

Have the same wounds(10) better regular save (4) but havent the 4++. 

Have as double move than us(2d6 are a median of 7 move)

Have the same atacks(20 attacks of 3hit 3 wound -1 1 damage is the same than us,a total of 20 damage)

But they do 2'5 mortal wounds per round that we dont

And the cost 100 so 20 less.

 

So they have a little worse save if we have the 4++,have better damage output with the same regular damage but mortal wounds,double move than us and cost 20 points less.

 

So my point is: hearthguard are veeeeery good,but aos2 tomes have units so good or better and havent been nerfed yet so it is soon to call overpower to hearthguards.

I have been pretty negative with the changues and i gonna try test them before more negative feedback.

 

I know that in offitial tournament they wont let you,but in my local tournaments i gonna use my vulkites as proxys of hearthguard with no problem

 

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4 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

When it comes to "vague" RAI vs RAW rules, I always try to take the safe bet that something sounds too good to be true.

The latest Miniwargaming video (vault) shows how 4-10 of the Hearthguard slaughter everything they touch with their MWs. A Gorgon gets oneshotted against 7?  Of them etc. they played them as one big blob of 30 and it was absurd.

I really want to see more tests with them though. Since the first impression might be wrong though the math agrees on it.

@prochuvi Hearthguard deal more dmg and are way tankier (and pretty easily buffed), they hit and wound on 3s etc.

Edited by JackStreicher
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Because do more damage?

 

Squig knigth do 20 attacks,4 hit,3 to wound,-1 rend 1 damage=6'6damage also do mortal wound by each model with a 4+ so a unit of 5 do 2'5 mortal wounds

 

So 100 points for 6'6damage with 1 rend and 2'5 mortals wound

 

Now hearthguards, have two options

 

Option1 the poleaxes are 10 attacks 3 hit 3 wound -1 rend 2 damage=8'8 damage and havent mortal wounds

 

Option2 the censer are 10 attacks 3 hit 3 wound 0 rend 1 damage=4'4 damage with no rend and do mortal wounds with the 6 to hit that are 2 extra mortal wounds that 10 attacks= 3'3 mortal wounds

So:

 

Squigs: 6'6 damage with 1 rend and 2'5 mortal wounds for 100 points

Hearthguard: 

Option1 poleaxes: 8'8 damage with 1 rend and 0 mortals,so same rend1 damage but 2'5 less mortals wound for 120 points

Option2 censer: 4'4 damage with 0 rend and 3'3 mortal wounds for 120 points that it is 2'5 less damage than squigs and with 0 ap and do 0'8 mortal wound more thsn squig for 20 more points.

 

I think that squigs do more damage than both versions of hearthguard if i havent done any math bad.

Also yes we have many buffs for them but squigs also have maybe more buffs for them than us as the moon,the colosal squig or many spells.

Also squig cost 20% less and have 16% worse save(save of 4 vs save of 5\4++ is a 16% worse save) so per points hearthguard are less tank

Dont get me wrong,hearthguard are very good but i think the game have some units so good or better than they as the squig knigth that havent been nerfed yet,so it isnt problable they are nerfed soon

 

Edit:i did some math wrong so i had to redo

Edited by prochuvi
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23 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Because do more damage?

 

Squig knigth do 20 attacks,4 hit,3 to wound,-1 rend 1 damage=6'6damage also do mortal wound by each model with a 4+ so a unit of 5 do 2'5 mortal wounds

 

So 100 points for 6'6damage with 1 rend and 2'5 mortals wound

 

Now hearthguards, have two options

 

Option1 the poleaxes are 10 attacks 3 hit 3 wound -1 rend 2 damage=8'8 damage and havent mortal wounds

 

Option2 the censer are 10 attacks 3 hit 3 wound 0 rend 1 damage=4'4 damage with no rend and do mortal wounds with the 6 to hit that are 2 extra mortal wounds that 10 attacks= 3'3 mortal wounds

So:

 

Squigs: 6'6 damage with 1 rend and 2'5 mortal wounds for 100 points

Hearthguard: 

Option1 poleaxes: 8'8 damage with 1 rend and 0 mortals,so same rend1 damage but 2'5 less mortals wound for 120 points

Option2 censer: 4'4 damage with 0 rend and 3'3 mortal wounds for 120 points that it is 2'5 less damage than squigs and with 0 ap and do 0'8 mortal wound more thsn squig for 20 more points.

 

I think that squigs do more damage than both versions of hearthguard if i havent done any math bad.

Also yes we have many buffs for them but squigs also have maybe more buffs for them than us as the moon,the colosal squig or many spells.

Also squig cost 20% less and have 16% worse save(save of 4 vs save of 5\4++ is a 16% worse save) so per points hearthguard are less tank

Dont get me wrong,hearthguard are very good but i think the game have some units so good or better than they as the squig knigth that havent been nerfed yet,so it isnt problable they are nerfed soon

 

Edit:i did some math wrong so i had to redo

The problem is your calculated normal heartguards vs squigs in charge. Outside of charging, the squigs damage go down A LOT (no mortal wounds, -1 to wound), while heartguard are consistent and kick ass in every situation against everyone.

the 4++ save change absolutely everything too, and make the heartguard extremely sturdy, and is easy to have ( a single hero WITHIN 10").

Plus, the heartguard have a 2" range, which isn't the case of the squigs (only the spear have a 2" range).  So big units of hearthguards will do much more damage (cause more people in range), don't rely on the charge (unlike the squigs), making them more consistent, and don't have a 5" bravery making them going away as soon as they take a few casualties.

Plus fyreslayers have access to a lot more buffs (army wide) that the gitz can't pile-up.

Edited by ledha
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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

The latest Miniwargaming video (vault) shows how 4-10 of the Hearthguard slaughter everything they touch with their MWs. A Gorgon gets oneshotted against 7?  Of them etc. they played them as one big blob of 30 and it was absurd.

I really want to see more tests with them though. Since the first impression might be wrong though the math agrees on it.

Oh my comment wasnt on Hearthguard, it was the Armor Stacking. Something tells me you're not suppose to have 2+ Armor Save fyreslayers!

 

Unless you are and every army should have 2-3 battlesmiths all hugging each other! Naked Slayers being tankier than Ironbreakers sure sounds weird.

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3 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Oh my comment wasnt on Hearthguard, it was the Armor Stacking. Something tells me you're not suppose to have 2+ Armor Save fyreslayers!

 

Unless you are and every army should have 2-3 battlesmiths all hugging each other! Naked Slayers being tankier than Ironbreakers sure sounds weird.

People like to say they're just "naked dwarfs," but to be fair, they do have magical god-metal infused into their bodies. But I do think that rule will get changed.

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11 hours ago, j0lt said:

Love the models and the fluff, but this is exactly why I committed to other projects despite my love for the stunties.

Hopefully this release will rekindle the fyre to get the project I planned started again.

I’m glad a lower model count is how things seemed to have worked out. I started my fyreslayers about a year ago but got burnt out painting them- I didn’t hate painting them as such, but after doing 20 vulkites the idea that I’d probably have to do another 30-40 at least killed it for me. I actually toyed with the idea of a large unit of hearthguard back then, but decided not when I realised how expensive (in £) that was going to be. Then deepkin came out and I got distracted. 

I tried to get the army going again at the start of the year as I’d enjoyed small games with them, and was just starting to get burned out again when the news of the new book came out, which really gave me a boost. It means now, far from still having a seemingly endless hoard of Vulkites still to get through, I’ve actually got enough to field a 2000 points army, with enough spare to tinker with a few different builds. It’s really got me excited to get them out into the table, and I dare say I even enjoyed painting the last few vulkites I had as a result! 

I do feel sorry for anyone who did soldier on through 90 Vulkites, although that’s still perfectly usable (just not optimal anymore) but for you and anyone else thinking of jumping in, now feels like a good time.  2 start collecting kits is basically a 1000 point army, and you’re not shooting yourself in the foot by taking small berserker units anymore, so it’s far easier to get going now. 

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Just to have different opinions, I'm assembling Vulkites and now that we can play them by group of 10 I thought it might be better to put shields on them to make them guardian units. However the double axes remain interesting especially with the berserker aptitude ...

Any thought?

 

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Hi all, looking into starting fyreslayers myself in the near future. I’ll likely end up with 20 or so HGB but I’m not sure what to equip them with? The poleaxes look great for mortal wounds but the Broadaxes seem a little more reliable. Which way would you guys go?

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What better time to get back onto TGA than now ;) I'm over the Bad Moon about my army getting an update. Mixed feelings, trying to take it all in stride and most importantly wait until I get my book to read and know the scrolls, options, etc. in context. Going to easily cross the 300 games solo Fyreslayers mark by Midwest Meltdown (USA) in July :) 

I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks. Apologies, just now got back onto this forum so I haven't gone back through all the post since I last was active like a year ago. When the Fyreslayers group on Facebook crossed 1,000 members we made dice. Yesterday with the release it crossed 2,000 members (something I could never have imagined when I started it 3 years ago with only myself and 2 other members) and we're discussing what item to create to celebrate--maybe a 9" ruler or something, so if you have ideas I'm open to hearing them.

Anyway...the biggest change I'm focusing on and need to wrap my brain around is a move from a hoard army (cuz, y'know, we only have 3 non-hero units) to now seems pointed for an elite army.  Less models will be an adjustment, though I am also starting Stormcasts so that's an elite army with less than 100 models on the table). Excited to hear your thoughts about what we know so far. I've already seen some interesting lists on the Facebook group. I plan on trying all the lodges and item/trait combos for a month or so try see what suits my play style and unholy bad Kennynomics dice rolling curse.

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14 minutes ago, Xelotath said:

Hi all, looking into starting fyreslayers myself in the near future. I’ll likely end up with 20 or so HGB but I’m not sure what to equip them with? The poleaxes look great for mortal wounds but the Broadaxes seem a little more reliable. Which way would you guys go?

I've built another 40 poleaxes (70 now in total) to deal with Flesh Eaters and Skaven so I'll have to see the full arsenal in the new tome but they still seem miles ahead of broadaxes IMO, and they actually didn't lose their Hair Save. :) 

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1 hour ago, Phalanx said:

Just to have different opinions, I'm assembling Vulkites and now that we can play them by group of 10 I thought it might be better to put shields on them to make them guardian units. However the double axes remain interesting especially with the berserker aptitude ...

Any thought?

 

 

I think double axes are probably better if you're going to just have groups of 10 roaming around semi-independently. They can hit reliably without buffs and it pairs well with the new Berserker fury.

OTOH, for a group of 20 Vulkites with hero support, picks and shields all the way, IMO. They have better baseline stats/abilities for use as a buff platform, you can pretty easily make them a 2+ save unit with rend attacks and a little bit of mortal wound damage, which totally beats out double axes in terms of potential.

It's what I plan to do anyway, I've already got 20 of each built and painted so I'm planning to run a group of 20 w shields and two groups of 10 with double axes and see how it goes.

Edited by madmac
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I think that folks should probably slow down a little bit with the panic about Hearthguard. By the numbers, they are indeed very good. 

Auric Hearthguard are super efficient when shooting monsters and merely fine when shooting at any other target. 

Hearthguard Berserkers with broadaxes are a little more efficient than poleaxes if you don't have rerolls to hit. If you do have reroll all hit rolls, the poleaxes are more efficient (note: you must re-roll all non 6's, not just misses, in order to get this level of efficiency). If you have rerolls both to hit and to wound, then the broadaxes are a bit more efficient. In each case though the numbers are reasonably close.

Hearthguard overall are also very defensively efficient as long as they have a hero around. This is an easy condition to meet, but if the opponent is one of the armies that can reasonably snipe out your heroes you could be in trouble.

Regardless, it's clear that Hearthguard are a very, very good unit at their current cost. That said, there are many units with comparable efficiency. Witch Aelves, Bestigors, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Morsarr Guard, and Boingrot Bounders are all good comparisons on efficiency. No unit is an exact match, but they are in the same ballpark. Plague Monks are a bit worse on defensive efficiency but their offensive efficiency is actually FAR higher than Hearthguard (like, it's not even close.) All of these are tournament caliber units, but none of them have really been shown to be broken. The most dominant warscroll on this list is probably Witch Aelves, but even these have mellowed a bit of late. DoK certainly has far overperformed over the past year, but since the release of the last several battletomes (particulary Skaven and FEC) they aren't showing the same level of dominance.

People are also ignoring the one glaring weakness of this unit, which is speed. Movement is really important in AOS. I'll add the huge caveat that I haven't seen the allegiance abilities yet, but unless there are a TON of buffs which improve movement, this unit is REALLY slow. Every unit that I listed above is faster than this one, and many of them are much faster. Even the "slow" units like Witch Aelves and Bestigors move 6" and can run and charge by default, and many can be easily buffed to move much faster than their baseline. Only Witch Aelves have had a lot of success without access to high movement. The slowest unit of the ones I mentioned (Plague Monks) is still faster than Hearthguard, and despite it being ultra efficient (again, to a degree that makes Hearthguard look like a joke) it hasn't exactly ruined the metagame (at least yet). 

People who are imagining two units of 30 locking down the entire board are dramatically overestimating their defensive capability. High damage concentration units are pretty common in the metagame right now, and if you spread out a unit of 30 as wide as you can, you are going to get hit hard and only be able to retaliate with a few models. 30 Hearthguard can soak a ton of damage, no doubt, but there are plenty of units out there that can deal a ton of damage as well. I don't think you can count on holding out long enough. The folks who are imagining holding multiple objectives with a single unit of 30 should remember that a unit can only claim one objective at a time.

I fully expect Fyreslayers to be solid, and Hearthguard are probably the single most competitive warscroll. I don't think we need to worry about them ruining the meta though, not when there are plenty of other things out there that are super strong in their own right.

 

EDIT: I'll also note that stacking multiple +1 to save from the same source is something that will be very easy to FAQ, and if Fyreslayers do end up being kinda broken because you can stack them up to 2+ rerollables this will be the kind of fix that won't need to wait for a points adjustment opportunity.

Edited by swarmofseals
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