AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[kozokus]

I do have a 1500 point tournament soon and plan to play something like this.

Does someone have an advice?

The plan is to bomb 3d3 damage on turn1 on the enemy army and kill/soften heroes.

did I made any severe mistake in list building?

thanks in advance.

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum (180)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
- Celestial Staves (Artefact): Staff of Focus
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Celestant-Prime (340)
Knight-Vexillor (120)
- Meteoric Standard

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Units
10 x Evocators (400)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Endless Spells
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 79
 

[kozokus]

Btw I am q bit annoyed. Does the staff of focus work on the everblaze comet?

[PJetski]

5 hours ago, kozokus said:

Btw I am q bit annoyed. Does the staff of focus work on the everblaze comet?

Yes, I don't see why it wouldn't

[ledha]

I would take 2 units of 5 evocators instead of 10 but the list is pretty perfect as it is

[kozokus]

 

12 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yes, I don't see why it wouldn't

Some might argue that the spell only summon a comet. And that it is the comet itself that deals New

But that is a bit playing with words

Edited August 1, 2018 by kozokus

[PJetski]

21 minutes ago, kozokus said:

 

Some might argue that the spell only summon a comet. And that it is the comet itself that deals New

But that is a bit playing with words

The comet warscroll is a spell that has a model. It's not a regular unit. 

Either way it's still a spell, so the staff of focus increases the damage it deals. The people arguing against it are being pedantic; ignore them.

[GeneralZero]

What weapon to your evocators? Is the grand staf better than dual weapons?

[ledha]

5 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

What weapon to your evocators? Is the grand staf better than dual weapons?

better in every case

[hughwyeth]

23 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

What weapon to your evocators? Is the grand staf better than dual weapons?

I can't seem to find the rules for evocators with grand stave? Here's the warscroll and there's no mention?

[PJetski]

20 minutes ago, ledha said:

better in every case

Not true. Their average expected damage is equal against 3+ saves.

Swords do more damage on average than staves against anything with a better save, like a 4+ rerollable, a 3+ reroll1, or 2+ save.

There are lots of other reasons to use Staves though:

• 2" reach
• Higher max damage
• Fighting enemies that ignore Rend-1 or Rend in general
• They look cool

In general I would use staves

[ledha]

2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Not true. Their average expected damage is equal against 3+ saves.

Swords do more damage on average than staves against anything with a better save, like a 4+ rerollable, a 3+ reroll1, or 2+ save.

There are lots of other reasons to use Staves though:

• 2" reach
• Higher max damage
• Fighting enemies that ignore Rend-1 or Rend in general
• They look cool

In general I would use staves

i said every case because the case where the sword is better than the stave are very uncommon

[RantingBob]

Okay, I've further refined my Tempest Lords Stormcast for the local Escalation League. I'd love comments, especially on the final month

500Pts: Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger, 1x10 Sequitors, Quicksilver Swords (500)
750pts: +Lord-Celestant on Dracoth, -Quicksilver Swords, +Celestian Vortex (740)
1000pts: +1x 10 Sequitors, +Quicksilver Swords (1000)
1250pts: +Everblaze Comet, Knight-Incantor (1240)
1500pts: +1x5 Evocators, +1CP (1490)
1750pts: +Cleansing Phalanx (just rules), +1x5 Evocators, -Quicksilver Swords, -1CP (1740)
2000pts: +2x5 Liberators, +1 Lord-Relictor, -Celestian Vortex

or

2000pts: +1x5 Judicators, +1 Lord-Relictor

Lord-Relictor could also be:
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Questor
Knight-Azyros
Knight-Zephyros
Lord-Castellant
Lord-Celestant

[Draviticus]

5 hours ago, PJetski said:

The comet warscroll is a spell that has a model. It's not a regular unit. 

Either way it's still a spell, so the staff of focus increases the damage it deals. The people arguing against it are being pedantic; ignore them.

They aren't being pedantic, they are just flat wrong. To give a little more context to this, the wording on Staff of Focus says "In addition, if the bearer casts a spell that inflicts any mortal wounds during that phase ... on each unit that spell affects." So the wording of the Staff itself doesn't care that the spell is a model, and that you are dealing damage based on some models placement. The only things that matter are:

Is it the Hero Phase in which Staff of Focus was used?  For our purposes here, yes. Note: this would not add damage to the beginning of the round effect.
Was the Everblazing Comet cast by the unit(bearer) who used the Staff? For our purposes here, yes.
Does the Everblazing Comet spell deal mortal wounds? Yes.

Therefore Staff would increase those mortal wounds by 1.

If the Staff said something like "When the bearer of this artifact deals mortal wounds with a spell" then I could almost understand the confusion, but it's very plain from the actual text that all the Staff cares about is a spell dealing mortal wounds when it goes to increase those mortal wounds. 

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, ledha said:

i said every case because the case where the sword is better than the stave are very uncommon

3+ rr1 or 4+ reroll are a lot more common than you think, especially in newer armies.

Either way I'm still going to build all mine with Grandstaves because we have other tools to deal with those high saves, like ballistas and mortal wounds.

 

4 minutes ago, Draviticus said:

They aren't being pedantic, they are just flat wrong. To give a little more context to this, the wording on Staff of Focus says "In addition, if the bearer casts a spell that inflicts any mortal wounds during that phase ... on each unit that spell affects." So the wording of the Staff itself doesn't care that the spell is a model, and that you are dealing damage based on some models placement. The only things that matter are:

Is it the Hero Phase in which Staff of Focus was used?  For our purposes here, yes. Note: this would not add damage to the beginning of the round effect.
Was the Everblazing Comet cast by the unit(bearer) who used the Staff? For our purposes here, yes.
Does the Everblazing Comet spell deal mortal wounds? Yes.

Therefore Staff would increase those mortal wounds by 1.

If the Staff said something like "When the bearer of this artifact deals mortal wounds with a spell" then I could almost understand the confusion, but it's very plain from the actual text that all the Staff cares about is a spell dealing mortal wounds when it goes to increase those mortal wounds. 

The pedantry is something like "well the spell creates a model and the model is doing the damage, not the spell". Ive heard that argument, and it's not a good one.

[Mark Williams]

Question on celestar ballistas:

Does it count as 3 models for holding objectives, or just 1?

Do you measure to shoot from the ballista or any of the three models?

[Richelieu]

7 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Question on celestar ballistas:

Does it count as 3 models for holding objectives, or just 1?

Do you measure to shoot from the ballista or any of the three models?

1 model for all purposes, including measurement and objective holding.

[DanielFM]

5 hours ago, ledha said:

i said every case because the case where the sword is better than the stave are very uncommon

Man, "every case" and "the most usual cases" are sooo synonimous ?

As PJetski said, those cases aren't that uncommon. 

[Charlo]

Hey all - new to AoS and currently looking at army options...

With all the support they've had it seems like Sigmarines could put together a pretty crazy shooting-based army...?

How would you go about this and would it be effective? Basically I wouldn't include a unit unless it had a ranged attack

[Lord Ein]

Hey, was wondering if I could get some critique on my 1250 army, I am quite new on AoS

Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger; General, stauch defender, keen clawed, lightning blast

Knight-Venator; luckstone

5 sequitors; 3 greatmace

5 sequitors; 3 greatmace

2 Celestar Ballista

5 Protectors (should I use starsoul mace or not?)

5 Evocators; tempest blade and stormstave

1200 pts, 50 left, spare command point for spamming LAoGC’s command ability? 

[Rod]

how good are deepstriking celestar balistas + Lord ordinator? anyone tried this configuration?  

[xaljorn14]

36 minutes ago, Rod said:

how good are deepstriking celestar balistas + Lord ordinator? anyone tried this configuration?  

I haven't tried it with the Ordinator but in a few games I've dropped my ballistas on objectives or areas that forced my opponents to have to make a choice of targets.   Also having those units set up in reserves seems to have unnerved a couple of guys I faced.  It made them make mistakes that I was able to capitalize on. 

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Rod said:

how good are deepstriking celestar balistas + Lord ordinator? anyone tried this configuration?  

Very. If you roll hot, you generally remove a unit. You won't pop hard targets like big heroes (Nagash, Stardrake, etc) or hordes, but you will generally remove regular sized units - I popped 10 Reivers and then 10 Thralls in subsequent playing against Idoneth, each just needed one hot volley. 

2+ Ballistas with an Ordinator dropping in is actually quite scary. They threaten to kill almost anything and if they drop in cover, they're quite hard to remove. 4 will table many armies without trying, with exceptions (Nurgle has lots of -hits for shooting, for instance, and Nighthaunt laugh at Rend -2). I feel like you can't go wrong with 2-3 standing behind a blob of Sequitors and/or Evocators.

 

Speaking of which, does it really bother anyone else that Libs (other than min Battleline options) and Paladins are basically shelved? I like the new stuff as much as the next guy... but man, I really don't like that they invalidate a bunch of my models.

[amysrevenge]

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

Speaking of which, does it really bother anyone else that Libs (other than min Battleline options) and Paladins are basically shelved? I like the new stuff as much as the next guy... but man, I really don't like that they invalidate a bunch of my models.

Here's the problem when we're talking about the best lists, here online.  Whether Sequitors are 40% better than Liberators or 0.000001% better than LIberators, every optimized list will use Sequitors and not LIberators.  And if it was 0.000001%, and the meta shifted or the tiniest rules change were applied such that Libs went to being 0.000001% better, then every list would immediately switch to only Libs.  When it's one or the other in your list, you take the better one, no matter how much better. 

And so we can get a skewed perception of just how good some things are and just how bad other things are, when list after list after list after list contains the one and no lists contain the other. Even if one is only the tiniest almost immeasurable bit better.

[Requizen]

Just now, amysrevenge said:

Here's the problem when we're talking about the best lists, here online.  Whether Sequitors are 40% better than Liberators or 0.000001% better than LIberators, every optimized list will use Sequitors and not LIberators.  And if it was 0.000001%, and the meta shifted or the tiniest rules change were applied such that Libs went to being 0.000001% better, then every list would immediately switch to only Libs.  When it's one or the other in your list, you take the better one, no matter how much better. 

And so we can get a skewed perception of just how good some things are and just how bad other things are, when list after list after list after list contains the one and no lists contain the other. Even if one is only the tiniest almost immeasurable bit better.

I understand that for sure. But look at, for instance, Libs vs Judis before this new Battletome. There were reasons to take both, and reasons not to take both. 

I'm unhappy that they designed Sequitors to just be Liberators, but better. Not a different option - it's not like, for instance, Darkling Covens, where you can have cheaper Battleline with Shields vs Executioners who are far more expensive but have much better attacks. That feels like a choice. This just... doesn't. It's not a "defensive vs offensive" or even a "more bodies vs better bodies" question, the only thing differentiating Sequitors vs Libs is having to take an Arcanum. Which... you'll probably want to anyway, since they're good, and Wizards are almost necessary.

Same for Evocators vs Paladins. If, for example, Evocators were worse in melee but could cast other spells, you'd have to make a choice - take the melee punch or take the trickiness of Wizards. But instead, they're just Paladins but better.

I like the new models and will continue playing, but the design just seems lazy to me. 

Ballistas are a good design - compare to Judicators. Ballistas need support, are not Battleline, and can be quite swingy in both directions. But, because they are very efficient in half range and can punch through easier with Rend -2, it's a bit more of a decision if you want a shooting unit and only have so many points to work with. Judis fill out the Battleline, but Ballistas with Scions will generally do more damage, but Judicators can hold objectives better, but Ballistas have longer range for something like Knife to the Heart... you make a choice. To some people, that choice seems obvious, to others, the opposite. Sequitors and Evocators are just replacements and it bugs me.

 

/rant

[amysrevenge]

I think the argument is by far the easiest for Evo/Pal, mostly because of the point costs.  Seq/Lib is a closer comparison (Seq comes out on top of course, but not by as much as Evo comes out ahead of Pals), and you're absolutely right that Jud/Ballista is much harder to judge and could go either way.