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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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17 hours ago, Roark said:

No offence, but how can you be comfortable playing them this way when it's obviously an error?

The true offence was to even think i would decieve my opponent with (proverbial) bad french translation.

Am a bit sad.

 

BTW what is everyone's opinion on tzeentch Sirmar's Disk? 

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2 hours ago, CountryMou3e said:

keen to know which favorite stormhost people have and why ? 

Hammers of Sigmar because that's what I painted. Nothing to do really with choice. As for my experiences playing with the new rules, they are fine. I haven't gotten a unit of redeemers back on the table yet after playing for several weeks. However the +1 to bravery is extremely powerful, and essentially makes my army fearless unless someone pulls off some kind of "bravery bomb" thing. Being "fearless" frees up the command points for other things, which is nice. I usually have a surplus of command points at the end of my games, as there's nothing particularly useful to spend them on.

The commander artifact and ability are fine. In some ways worse than staunch defender, but in some ways better. The artifact weapon is about the same as the previous offensive artifact that I was using, so in the end not much changed about my army except that it got quite a bit tougher and more stubborn than before.

 

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37 minutes ago, kozokus said:

BTW what is everyone's opinion on tzeentch Sirmar's Disk? 

I've been thinking about it quite a bit. I like it to an extent, but I don't think it adds a lot of value. The best use for it is to get your Wizard quickly onto an objective and keep them safe on a 2+. As a 40 point upgrade, that's not bad, but the Arcanum can just take his mount for a 60 point difference between foot/mounted. The Exorcist is still not really worth taking. And the Incantor doesn't really want to be that far forward by herself. 

It's fairly useful on Duality of Death/Places of Arcane Power/Relocation Orb/Three Places of Power - but there's also the serious downside of getting surrounded and dying to a dispel. For the same price, I think the Geminids are better.

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On the topic of bravery bombs, do you think they are worth investing in?

Both an Anvils of the Heldenhammer Lord Veritant with Shriving Light and God-King aspect and AotH Lord Arcanum on Dracoline with Terrifying Aspect can inflict -3 to bravery by themselves. If you add Decimators or a Celestant Prime, it goes up to -5. You can go further by combining several or all of those options together.

How much feels like overinvesting? Do you think it would be worth it?

Edited by DanielFM
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My opinion is that bravery bombs only really work on turn 1 or turn 2 when your opponent doesn't have command points. Someone can get caught out  flat-footed by it, but most people aren't going to get fooled by it, and it seems like a really risky thing to do. I admit I'd be curious to see someone get a multiple charge off with a large unit and cause several units to run away in a single turn, but realistically that probably isn't going to happen, and the energy you would expend trying to make that work would probably be better invested in just trying to dish out more damage.

My current army can do a bravery bomb of sorts with the Celestant-Prime and a scions strike from the heavens with a large group of shooting units. However, I have to pull it off on turn 1 basically or my opponent just uses a command point to ignore bravery tests. It can be really devastating against an opponent who doesn't expect it, but I wouldn't say it's all "that" strong.

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So, this is what I have been working on

Warscroll Builder on www.warhammer-community.com
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Mortal Realm: Hysh
LEADERS
Lord-Aquilor (200)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Mount Trait : Wind Runner
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- Artefact : Mirrorshield 
- Spell : Speed of Lightning
- Mount Trait : Wind Runner
UNITS
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
9 x Castigators (240)
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
9 x Castigators (240)
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Starstrike Javelins
5 x Liberators (100)
-Warhammer & Shield
- 1 x Grandhammers
WAR MACHINES
Celestar Ballista (100)
BATTALIONS
Soulstrike Brotherhood (120)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

1900/2000

Can't quite figure out what I want to do with the last 100 points. Either more bodies, a hero, or maybe another ballista.I think the play style is going to be a lot like aetherstrike the damage from the castigators the turn they come down is going to be horrendous with arcanum command ability, and the palladors will act like shock cav that can put some hurt on key targets

Edited by Hoodwizard
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35 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

My opinion is that bravery bombs only really work on turn 1 or turn 2 when your opponent doesn't have command points. 

I've been thinking about this.  Maybe the true power of bravery bombs is to force your opponent to spend a CP where maybe they didn't want to?  Perhaps it's too much effort to put into it, but it's still a benefit.

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3 hours ago, Hoodwizard said:

So, this is what I have been working on

Warscroll Builder on www.warhammer-community.com
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Mortal Realm: Hysh
LEADERS
Lord-Aquilor (200)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
- Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Mount Trait : Wind Runner
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- Artefact : Mirrorshield 
- Spell : Speed of Lightning
- Mount Trait : Wind Runner
UNITS
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
9 x Castigators (240)
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
9 x Castigators (240)
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Starstrike Javelins
5 x Liberators (100)
-Warhammer & Shield
- 1 x Grandhammers
WAR MACHINES
Celestar Ballista (100)
BATTALIONS
Soulstrike Brotherhood (120)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

1900/2000

Can't quite figure out what I want to do with the last 100 points. Either more bodies, a hero, or maybe another ballista.I think the play style is going to be a lot like aetherstrike the damage from the castigators the turn they come down is going to be horrendous with arcanum command ability, and the palladors will act like shock cav that can put some hurt in key targets

Do you have only a single battle line?

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The vanguard hunters are battleline with the aquilor and they are needed for the battalion. I tried to figure a way to use sequitors,  but I think you have to make the hunters battleline to have room for enough castigators. To be honest I'm not sure if I have enough castigators, but I am kind of afraid of not fitting all of them around the arcanum.

Edited by Hoodwizard
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5 hours ago, DanielFM said:

On the topic of bravery bombs, do you think they are worth investing in?

I think they are rarely worth building towards - the exception would be elite, high-cost units with low bravery. Stormfiends are a perfect example, 100 points per model and a bravery of 6. Kill at least 1, debuff bravery, force a roll with a real shot at wiping out the rest. The Celestant Prime and Decimators combo can give a -4 bubble, that will make a lot of players sweat the battleshock roll. Likely works best on round 1 (before the enemy has command points), or if you can spread the tests around to several units it will make them spend what they have and leave the rest to chance. 

I've theory-crafted a couple lists, but have never tried them. 

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Right now there seems to be a lot of discussion on the utility of different shooting units, and good debate of their merits. Has anyone tried SCE lists without any shooting at all? I'm contemplating purely melee, counting on the raw strength of our hammers, swords and faith in the God-King. I also think that if we're going to be using Realm Rules, I don't want to depend on shooting at all since so many ruthlessly nerf shooting.

As far as I see it there are a variety of shooting units competing for our attention:
- Judicators with 24" Longbows or Judicators with 20 short-range Crossbow shots, which are the best and most important given the need to fill Battleline,
or:
- Castigators, either as small units or giant units, Raptors with Crossbows or Raptors with Longstrikes, which fulfill distinct tasks.

As far as I'm concerned, Castigators get booted from serious competition simply by virtue of not being Battleline. I played most of 1.0 with 2x5 Judicators with Skybolt/Shockbolt Bows and came to really lean on their ability to snipe and weaken units. Now, however, I'm finding that character sniping is a far more difficult process (given how many characters can get -1 or -2 to hit, easily). I'm doubtful that mass Crossbow fire (either from Judicators or Raptors) is useful, either, since they won't kill enough cheap screening models to be worth sacrificing 140 or 160pts of Stormcast dropping in that close to the enemy. The Longstrikes are alright but I am queasy at the thought of paying 180pts for 6 wounds of 4+ models that my opponent is going to nuke immediately. Moreso now that Anvils got nerfed, too.

So, my question is: SCE without shooting - is it possible? Do we fundamentally need something to harass or weaken that key enemy unit? Is it compulsory to have those rending long range bows to snipe at enemy giant monsters? Or can we do it without shooting support and beat the enemy to death in glorious melee?

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6 hours ago, DanielFM said:

On the topic of bravery bombs, do you think they are worth investing in?

For the number of models it will kill, I'd rather just spent 100pts for a Comet cast by a character with the Staff of Focus. 2-4 MW per unit in a colossal radius.

All the effort required to coordinate a bravery bomb scenario would be better spent focused on directly killing enemy models, in my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, Galamund said:

Right now there seems to be a lot of discussion on the utility of different shooting units, and good debate of their merits. Has anyone tried SCE lists without any shooting at all? I'm contemplating purely melee, counting on the raw strength of our hammers, swords and faith in the God-King. I also think that if we're going to be using Realm Rules, I don't want to depend on shooting at all since so many ruthlessly nerf shooting.

As far as I see it there are a variety of shooting units competing for our attention:
- Judicators with 24" Longbows or Judicators with 20 short-range Crossbow shots, which are the best and most important given the need to fill Battleline,
or:
- Castigators, either as small units or giant units, Raptors with Crossbows or Raptors with Longstrikes, which fulfill distinct tasks.

As far as I'm concerned, Castigators get booted from serious competition simply by virtue of not being Battleline. I played most of 1.0 with 2x5 Judicators with Skybolt/Shockbolt Bows and came to really lean on their ability to snipe and weaken units. Now, however, I'm finding that character sniping is a far more difficult process (given how many characters can get -1 or -2 to hit, easily). I'm doubtful that mass Crossbow fire (either from Judicators or Raptors) is useful, either, since they won't kill enough cheap screening models to be worth sacrificing 140 or 160pts of Stormcast dropping in that close to the enemy. The Longstrikes are alright but I am queasy at the thought of paying 180pts for 6 wounds of 4+ models that my opponent is going to nuke immediately. Moreso now that Anvils got nerfed, too.

So, my question is: SCE without shooting - is it possible? Do we fundamentally need something to harass or weaken that key enemy unit? Is it compulsory to have those rending long range bows to snipe at enemy giant monsters? Or can we do it without shooting support and beat the enemy to death in glorious melee?

Other than the extreme Soulstrike list I posted a few pages back, I've been leaning towards lists with minimal shooting.  I just don't think it's terribly necessary now that we can reliably get where we need to go via scions or command abilities.  I will be experimenting with running a single unit of Judicators to see if it's enough to hold the back field.

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I was kicking the idea of this kind of melee based list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
- Mount Trait: Pack Leader
Lord-Castellant (100)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Vexillor (120)
- General
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Trait: We Cannot Fail 
- Artefact: God-forged Blade 
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Azyros (100)
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
2 x Concussors (260)
10 x Retributors (440)
- 4x Starsoul Maces
Lords of the Storm (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
 

It's really just all in on vandus the dracoths and paladins, if you drop the vexillor and azyros with the combat portion of it and you get in with just 2 of the 3 combat units it's going to melt something 

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1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

Other than the extreme Soulstrike list I posted a few pages back, I've been leaning towards lists with minimal shooting.  I just don't think it's terribly necessary now that we can reliably get where we need to go via scions or command abilities.  I will be experimenting with running a single unit of Judicators to see if it's enough to hold the back field.

Shooting units have their place imho. Either feet on the ground units which contribute something from afar to the Scions guys, or as Scions drops which can do something worthwhile without needing to land a charge this turn (for the ones who are still not into the Gavriel CA spam train).

You can definitely play pure close combat lists with SCE, but for me it feels one-dimensional, boring and a waste of good options.

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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/26/26th-july-tactics-champions-of-the-sacrosanct-chambersgw-homepage-post-4/

evocators on draco are on their way (pre order probably in 8 days/available in 2 weeks?). I was looking at their warscroll and point cost. 300 is something you're thinking about twice before including them in your list! I don't say yet they are overprived nore under priced.

I'm just comparing them to my beloved fulminators. Model wise, I'm still prefering the dracothians: they are massive and impose some respect in addition to being  effective on the battlefield. But how do Evo on Drac compare to those Fulmi? I like the new cavalry, I'll get one unit for just my collection at least.

My thoughs are that you can get 2 units of fulmi in a list (or 4 models in 1 unit). It is solid for the points and has some usefull shooting. But at 300p, the evo are big: you can't think about 2 units (or 6 in 1) without building the list around them. Maybe I'll try 4 fulmi + 3 evo (I'm so in love with cavalry) (even if I think that 4 fulmi+heraldor+evo on foot is more efficient at the same cost)

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Still think that normal evocators are better. They cost 100 points less, have same wounds per unit and do more damage. The only thing dracolines are better in is mobility, but with the new scions and gavriel i feel like that we dont need that mobility. And if you need that mobility i feel like fulmis are the way to go. But still awesome looking models.

Edited by Erdemo86
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1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Still think that normal evocators are better. They cost 100 points less, have same wounds per unit and do more damage. The only thing dracolines are better in is mobility, but with the new scions and gavriel i feel like that we dont need that mobility. And if you need that mobility i feel like fulmis are the way to go. But still awesome looking models.

If I read once again about Gavriel as if he was a part of every SCE list I will throw up.

Not only he force you into Hamners (which I don't like at all), but he also needs 2 CPs (thus battalion/bought CP) to be good. People can(and will) want to try other Stormhost, and then Scions is incredibly unreliable for CC units.  There is a place for fast units on the ground with shooty units in Scions and foot-slogging mobility tricks (Heraldor, 6 run CA, Tauralon CA, Hallowed Knights CA, etc). In this context, 12 move and reroll charge are really good. Plus starting on the table allows Dracolines to buff themselves before the charge (while Scions Evocators can't) and hit even harder.

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17 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

I wrote "questionable" because the design  is far from making the unanimity. That means some people love it (seem to be minority) but some other don't (well, hate it). I didn't make judgement. So, I'm speaking for everyone then :P

Maybe controversial, then? Questionable had a lot more implicit negativity. Well, that's being quite nitpicky :D

An example of a Hallowed Knights list taking advantage of a fast, buffed, foot-slogging Evocators on Dracoline unit.

It's not a tournament winner and spells and items weren't fine tuned, but you get the idea .

Shooters and Evocators on foot/Incantor go into Scions, the rest leg it. Evocators on Dracoline get HKs CA + Tauralon CA to charge first turn after shooters soften screens/support. Sequitors act as a second wave.


Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hallowed Knights

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (340)
- General
- Trait: Martyr's Strength 
- Artefact: Parchment of Purity 
- Spell: Thundershock
- Mount Trait: Steel Pinions
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Lord-Castellant (100)
- Mystic Light (Artefact): Lantern of the Tempest

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
6 x Castigators (160)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

Edited by DanielFM
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