AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[AwareTheLegend]

4 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Does we got any informations on upcoming stormcast errata? I think we need a lot of explanations, most for stapling CA‘s.

Rumours I've heard is this week.

[Grailstorm]

23 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

"Combining all their stats into one model" is irrelevant though, as that isn't how units should be evaluated. Instead you have to account for slow speed, so-so hitting power, and x number of massive 40mm bases trying to squeeze into combat together. While they might seem "brutal in hordes" on paper, in practice they are very unwieldy.  Liberators pale spectacularly to Sequitors in nearly every way (which should probably be the new name of the thread at this point). 

And yet they were the driving force behind the SCGT winning list.

It’s silly to say they’re not very good. Yes, the underpriced Sequitors are better, but as far as battleline goes across the game, Liberators are pretty good. 

[Mark Williams]

The main issue with liberators is a lack of damage output, compared to many other army's battle lines. You can't avoid getting into assault in AoS, due to missions that require you to move forward and sit on objectives, which are often in the middle of the board or in enemy deployment zones. Liberators have decent defense, but when they attack back, they hit like a wet noodle. They don't give as good as they take, and so an army built around them basically only has middling defense and not much else. You can't win games if you can't make your opponent roll saves. It's basic, and barely should need explaining.

Liberators have a few basic jobs:

1. They can camp an objective and defend it as long as they aren't the focus of attention.

2. They can escort more valuable units and stop an enemy from surrounding you and getting a 100% charge.

3. They can act as sacrificial pawns, standing 6-8 inches in front of your main army, and acting as the first line of defense, which will allow you to retaliate without losing your best forces earlyon.

4. They can act as sacrificial pawns, to tie up or occupy enemy units for a round or two, with the goal of dividing your enemy or distracting them from the mission.

That's basically it... in each case, the real "work" of your army isn't being done by liberators. At no point is any of their worth involved in killing the enemy or capturing an objective that's being held by opposing forces. They are essentially a harassment unit. They work fine for that goal, but you can't win games with them, and if you keep adding more and more to your army at some point you've lost so much killing power that you're nothing more than an inanimate punching bag for your opponent to punch through on the way to winning. An annoyance at best, but never a threat.

Combined with some of your other "good units" however, liberators in small quantities can be quite useful, and almost every army needs some cheap unit/s out front keeping the "murder force" from ramming straight into the heart of you on the first turn. That's Lib's job, and they are fine at it. But you need something behind them that will actually kill whatever hits the liberators - ie. not more liberators.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Mark Williams

[Wars]

I'd appreciate any feedback on the below list for a 1000-point game.

===
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar

LEADERS

Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240) - General 
Command Trait : We Cannot Fail
Artefact : God-forged Blade 
Spell : Celestial Blades 
Mount Trait : Keen-clawed

Gavriel Sureheart (100)

UNITS

10 x Evocators (400)

5 x Liberators (100) -Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers

5 x Judicators (160) -Skybolt Bows - 1 x Shockbolt Bows

TOTAL: 1000/1000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 62
===

My plan is to deploy the LAoGC, the Liberators and the Judicators on the board and scions in Gavriel and the Evocators first turn to charge the enemy in their deployment zone. Hopefully by using a command point to activate Gavriel's ability (+3") the charge will succeed. Regardless, the Evocators tie up the enemy while my other forces deploy to secure objectives. I'll move my LAoGC up to support the Evocators as soon as possible.

Problems I anticipate: the usual problem of not enough units for SCE as well as the chance of a failed Evocator charge. 

I briefly considered swapping LAoGC and Gavriel with Astreia and a Knight-Vexillor but I'm not sure if it's better.

 

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, Grailstorm said:

It’s silly to say they’re not very good.

Show me where I said that. 

1 hour ago, Grailstorm said:

Yes, the underpriced Sequitors are better, but as far as battleline goes across the game, Liberators are pretty good. 

This is exactly the point I made - Sequitors are flat out better. Reading is fundamental. 

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Grailstorm said:

And yet they were the driving force behind the SCGT winning list.

It’s silly to say they’re not very good. Yes, the underpriced Sequitors are better, but as far as battleline goes across the game, Liberators are pretty good. 

I dont think they are underpriced. Any more points and they become useless as battleline. And if they arent battleline then they have no role to fill.

Libs are overpriced compared to them but not overpriced compared to the rest of the game. 

Thats the problem right there. GW backed themselves into a corner and soon something big and probably bad will happen to one or both units

[Hanners]

Ok so I am very new to AoS and have been perusing this topic and the old Let's chat thread for ideas.  Thank you everyone for your thoughts and analyses, it helps a newbie out a lot!  While I don't envision me ever going to a tournament - I'm much more of a beer and pretzels player - I do like to make "Friendly-Competitive" lists where I at least have a shot at winning, or barring that, my opponent isn't put to sleep playing me / tables me turn one.

The trouble is - I really like the Stormcast Vanguard models.  I gather from the last lets chat they are...not good.  Which is fine, like I said, but I am hoping I can at least make something that is 1) fun, and two) at least viable, (I recognize it won't be optimal).

Here's what I have to work with:

1 Stormcast Vanguard Brotherhood box:

• 1 Lord Auquilor
• 10 Vanguard Hunters
• 3 Vanguard Raptors / 3 Aetherwings
• 3 Vanguard Pallidors
• 12 Gyrph Hounds

Neave Blacktalon

Soul Wars (You all know what comes in this )

My main question is - is there anything I can put together to make a workable army here?  Some sort of Mix of Vanguard and Sacrosanct? My local GW store was sold out of the Battletome but I should be able to pick one up tomorrow so I am not sure of what does what at this point.

Is there anything else I should be looking to pick up right away? The old thread recommended running Pallidors in units of 6 to get the most value out of them, is that still the case?

Thanks all, appreciate the help. Looking forward to building and painting all of this!

Edited July 19, 2018 by Hanners

[AwareTheLegend]

19 minutes ago, Hanners said:

Ok so I am very new to AoS and have been perusing this topic and the old Let's chat thread for ideas.  Thank you everyone for your thoughts and analyses, it helps a newbie out a lot!  While I don't envision me ever going to a tournament - I'm much more of a beer and pretzels player - I do like to make "Friendly-Competitive" lists where I at least have a shot at winning, or barring that, my opponent isn't put to sleep playing me / tables me turn one.

The trouble is - I really like the Stormcast Vanguard models.  I gather from the last lets chat they are...not good.  Which is fine, like I said, but I am hoping I can at least make something that is 1) fun, and two) at least viable, (I recognize it won't be optimal).

Here's what I have to work with:

1 Stormcast Vanguard Brotherhood box:

• 1 Lord Auquilor
• 10 Vanguard Hunters
• 3 Vanguard Raptors / 3 Aetherwings
• 3 Vanguard Pallidors
• 12 Gyrph Hounds

Neave Blacktalon

Soul Wars (You all know what comes in this )

My main question is - is there anything I can put together to make a workable army here?  Some sort of Mix of Vanguard and Sacrosanct? My local GW store was sold out of the Battletome but I should be able to pick one up tomorrow so I am not sure of what does what at this point.

Is there anything else I should be looking to pick up right away? The old thread recommended running Pallidors in units of 6 to get the most value out of them, is that still the case?

Thanks all, appreciate the help. Looking forward to building and painting all of this!

Depending on the level you play running a full Vanguard list while not the best isn't going to stop you from winning games. Also as Stormcast you are unlikely to be shot off the table in turn 1 because you probably don't have everything on the table. About the only thing I'd argue against using is the 12 Grpyh hounds. Even at their cheaper point cost I still think they are horrible. I personally don't think that anything in the Stormcast arsenal is objectively bad. Worse than other things that Stormcast can field yes, but definitely not worst units in the game.

I run a almost pure Vanguard list at 1000 points that a guy at my old shop absolutely hates. He is straight up afraid of Vanguard Hunters coming in off the board edge.

Biggest thing you are going to have to figure out is who is going to be the general. With the Lord Aqulior as general the Hunters become battleline or the Lord-Arcanum with Sequitors as battleline.  You are going to have to buy either a box of Liberators (or find some cheap on Ebay which is really doable) or Judicators to fill out your 3rd battleline for 2000 point games. Side point the Souls Wars box doesn't give you enough Sequitors to make 2 full units so to make them usable you need to buy the easy to build kits or one of the new smaller starters that come out on Sat (which are just easy build kits anyways).

Honestly best advice is to put together a list you think is the best and try it out. Get the new battletome and work on it from there.

 

 

[DanielFM]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I dont think they are underpriced. Any more points and they become useless as battleline. And if they arent battleline then they have no role to fill.

Libs are overpriced compared to them but not overpriced compared to the rest of the game. 

Thats the problem right there. GW backed themselves into a corner and soon something big and probably bad will happen to one or both units

Libs are not overpriced compared to the rest of the game, but they are really average. Nothing that stands out. Longbeards are way tougher and attack better with greataxes. Orruk Ardboys are cheaper per model and not really softer (rolling 6 in 1 dice is equivalent to rolling a 1 and rerolling, if not better), with the Orruks not armed with shields attacking way better. Tzaangors are once again cheaper by model, way faster and their offensive output is insanely better. Direwolves are a lot  cheaper, faster and hit similarly on the charge. Even Sword& Shield Freeguild Guard offer the same resilience for less points, only by wounding on 4+ instead of 3+ (you don't bring Liberators for those punny attacks anyway). I could keep going on and on.

2 hours ago, Hanners said:

Ok so I am very new to AoS and have been perusing this topic and the old Let's chat thread for ideas.  Thank you everyone for your thoughts and analyses, it helps a newbie out a lot!  While I don't envision me ever going to a tournament - I'm much more of a beer and pretzels player - I do like to make "Friendly-Competitive" lists where I at least have a shot at winning, or barring that, my opponent isn't put to sleep playing me / tables me turn one.

The trouble is - I really like the Stormcast Vanguard models.  I gather from the last lets chat they are...not good.  Which is fine, like I said, but I am hoping I can at least make something that is 1) fun, and two) at least viable, (I recognize it won't be optimal).

Here's what I have to work with:

1 Stormcast Vanguard Brotherhood box:

• 1 Lord Auquilor
• 10 Vanguard Hunters
• 3 Vanguard Raptors / 3 Aetherwings
• 3 Vanguard Pallidors
• 12 Gyrph Hounds

Neave Blacktalon

Soul Wars (You all know what comes in this )

My main question is - is there anything I can put together to make a workable army here?  Some sort of Mix of Vanguard and Sacrosanct? My local GW store was sold out of the Battletome but I should be able to pick one up tomorrow so I am not sure of what does what at this point.

Is there anything else I should be looking to pick up right away? The old thread recommended running Pallidors in units of 6 to get the most value out of them, is that still the case?

Thanks all, appreciate the help. Looking forward to building and painting all of this!

Hi! There is nothing wrong with Vanguard, and with the changes un the new battletome they are at the very least a bit better. If you think outside of the box and get the most out of their flexibility and deployment tricks, you can surprise many players and do a lot more than they are supposed on paper.

Look here for an example of a list combining Vanguard and Sacrosanct units: 

In my opinion, the Soulstrike Brotherhood Battalion is a nice, easy way to get a Command point, extra Artifact, less deployment drops and a rule that takes Castigators from meh to interesting.

Don't be discouraged and don't follow the clone netlists blindly!

Edited July 19, 2018 by DanielFM

[Incineroar87]

What's the best way to go with all the new support ?   Are there any older units or characters that can take advantage of what Sequitors and Evocators can do at 2K?

[Kugane]

A random question ~ If a Aquilor uses his command ability on a unit of Raptors that did not move during that movement phase and you re-deploy them elsewhere, do they count as having moved after that? Or do they still count as not moved and their bonusses apply?

[Mark Williams]

Redeployments do not count as moving for special abilities, they just prevent you from making a “normal move”  in the movement phase.

[Kugane]

11 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Redeployments do not count as moving for special abilities, they just prevent you from making a “normal move”  in the movement phase.

Thank you very much!

[Richelieu]

7 hours ago, DanielFM said:

In my opinion, the Soulstrike Brotherhood Battalion is a nice, easy way to get a Command point, extra Artifact, less deployment drops and a rule that takes Castigators from meh to interesting.

I think soulstrike has the potential to be good.   Everyone talks about using longstrikes with Anvils, but a soulstrike will drop in close, blast away a rank and then next turn you can use anvil CA to continue the carnage.  

The only reservation I have is that your hunters have to be on the board a whole turn to trigger the battalion ability.

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

I think soulstrike has the potential to be good.   Everyone talks about using longstrikes with Anvils, but a soulstrike will drop in close, blast away a rank and then next turn you can use anvil CA to continue the carnage.  

The only reservation I have is that your hunters have to be on the board a whole turn to trigger the battalion ability.

 

Just deploy 1 unit at set up surely?

 

[Richelieu]

17 minutes ago, AdamR said:

 

Just deploy 1 unit at set up surely?

 

Yeah, I was thinking they both had to be deployed using the astral compass but I read it again and they both just have to HAVE an astral compass.  

[Rusted Weapons]

How do SCE muster up any mortal wound protection?

[amysrevenge]

Huh.  I finally got through the new battletome (it has been a crazy week for both work and family).  Didn't want to read ahead and spoil it, so I read it page by page and hadn't looked at the warscrolls yet until last night.

I don't think I can muster the troops for a single battalion.

I've got well over 100 regular models (Libs, Judicators, Sequitors - actual units), a couple Ballistas, and over a dozen various heroes.  But the tiny handful of Heroes and units I don't have seem to be the limiting factor.  I've got everything I need except an Ordinator, or everything except Vanguard-Hunters, or everything except a second 5 Evocators, or...  I'm even just one Hero away from that crazy all-hero one, as I don't have a Castellant or Veritant and one or the other of those is one of the requirements.

Wait, the one with 3 units of Prosecutors.   Vanguard Wing.  Could do that one, barely, with my 9 Prosecutors.  And I suppose I could do the one with all the Libs and Judicators (but why? I want to use Sequitors and new stuff). 

But I'm sad.  I thought, here I am, finally going all-in on a modern current army with a brand new battletome.  Time to cash in on all those CPs and artefacts for once, that I can't get with my Ogors and Spiders and such.  And I have to spend a quarter of my points on Prosecutors just to get one....

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, carrigher82 said:

How do SCE muster up any mortal wound protection?

Vs spells - Lens of Refraction like everybody else!
Vs effects is tougher. Hammers of Sigmar Stormhost for 6++?

 

55 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Huh.  I finally got through the new battletome (it has been a crazy week for both work and family).  Didn't want to read ahead and spoil it, so I read it page by page and hadn't looked at the warscrolls yet until last night.

I don't think I can muster the troops for a single battalion.

I've got well over 100 regular models (Libs, Judicators, Sequitors - actual units), a couple Ballistas, and over a dozen various heroes.  But the tiny handful of Heroes and units I don't have seem to be the limiting factor.  I've got everything I need except an Ordinator, or everything except Vanguard-Hunters, or everything except a second 5 Evocators, or...  I'm even just one Hero away from that crazy all-hero one, as I don't have a Castellant or Veritant and one or the other of those is one of the requirements.

Wait, the one with 3 units of Prosecutors.   Vanguard Wing.  Could do that one, barely, with my 9 Prosecutors.  And I suppose I could do the one with all the Libs and Judicators (but why? I want to use Sequitors and new stuff). 

But I'm sad.  I thought, here I am, finally going all-in on a modern current army with a brand new battletome.  Time to cash in on all those CPs and artefacts for once, that I can't get with my Ogors and Spiders and such.  And I have to spend a quarter of my points on Prosecutors just to get one....

Seriously, how have you collected Stormcast and not got a Castellant?! ?

Edited July 19, 2018 by AdamR

[amysrevenge]

17 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Seriously, how have you collected Stormcast and not got a Castellant?! ?

lol I didn't actually play them much in AoS1.  But of all the heroes in the entire army, the only ones I don't have* are:  Castellant, Veritant, Ordinator, and Exorcist (and I only have the Soul Wars Arcanum, but he's enough to meet battalion requirements).  And the lack of those prevent pretty much any battalion I could otherwise easily meet.  hahahaha

 

*And Errant-Questor I suppose, as he went on sale about a week after my only overseas visit to Warhammer World.....

[AwareTheLegend]

1 hour ago, amysrevenge said:

Huh.  I finally got through the new battletome (it has been a crazy week for both work and family).  Didn't want to read ahead and spoil it, so I read it page by page and hadn't looked at the warscrolls yet until last night.

I don't think I can muster the troops for a single battalion.

I've got well over 100 regular models (Libs, Judicators, Sequitors - actual units), a couple Ballistas, and over a dozen various heroes.  But the tiny handful of Heroes and units I don't have seem to be the limiting factor.  I've got everything I need except an Ordinator, or everything except Vanguard-Hunters, or everything except a second 5 Evocators, or...  I'm even just one Hero away from that crazy all-hero one, as I don't have a Castellant or Veritant and one or the other of those is one of the requirements.

Wait, the one with 3 units of Prosecutors.   Vanguard Wing.  Could do that one, barely, with my 9 Prosecutors.  And I suppose I could do the one with all the Libs and Judicators (but why? I want to use Sequitors and new stuff). 

But I'm sad.  I thought, here I am, finally going all-in on a modern current army with a brand new battletome.  Time to cash in on all those CPs and artefacts for once, that I can't get with my Ogors and Spiders and such.  And I have to spend a quarter of my points on Prosecutors just to get one....

Just build a 1950 point force and get extra CP. Easy peasy.

You don't want to use most of the battalions anyways......

I do wish they would let us buy Relics for points though. It would probably be really unbalanced though.

[amysrevenge]

Just now, AwareTheLegend said:

I do wish they would let us buy Relics for points though. It would probably be really unbalanced though.

Yeah it's artefacts I'm mostly after.  I'm 99% certain to be doing Anvils of the Heldenhammer for my army, and that means I don't even get to pick artefacts unless I squeeze in one battalion somewhere, and I'd love to be able to mess around with Realm-specific (and even other battletome) items.

[AwareTheLegend]

6 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Yeah it's artefacts I'm mostly after.  I'm 99% certain to be doing Anvils of the Heldenhammer for my army, and that means I don't even get to pick artefacts unless I squeeze in one battalion somewhere, and I'd love to be able to mess around with Realm-specific (and even other battletome) items.

Don't take a Stormhost rule and you will. I do understand though. I'm likely to be using Cleansing Phalnax so I'll get 2. I'm still waiting for more Sequitors though.

[amysrevenge]

I'll likely be picking up an Evocator box to get to 10, so that will open up for me too.  Meanwhile, I might proxy an Ordinator (I've got a loose and accepting community).

[Aggesut]

Thoughts on this future list appreciated:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

LEADERS

Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline (240) - General 

• Command Trait : Single-Minded Fury
• Artefact : Stormrage Blade 
• Spell : Celestial Blades 
• Mount Trait: Pride Leader

Knight-Incantor (140)

• Mindlock Staff
• Stormcaller

UNITS

15 x Sequitors (360)

5 x Sequitors (120)

5x Sequitors (120)

OTHER UNITS

6x Evocators on Dracolines (600)

5x Evocators (200)

Chronomatic Cogs (60)

Balewind Vortex (40)

WARSCOLL BATTALION

Cleansing Phalanx (120)

TOTAL: 2000/2000
===

Ideas is simple: Drop Dracolines behind enemy lines, charge on 7 with Cogs, Empower and rerolls. Empower the Sequitors with reroll hit and wounds from Phalanx. Stormcaller and support from Incantor on Vortex.