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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

I wouldn't. They are good, but not 140 points good. I would grudginly return to the boring, unimpressive but cheap Liberators.

I see our battlelines as cheap filler and not our workhorses, so that also bias my opinion. Spending so many points on batteline instead of elite units feels wrong to me.

You don't need elite units with a 20 block of sequitors. I proxied them for a match against khorne and they obliterated everything they touched. His bloodthirster died to the 9 grand weapons alone. They really are bonkers with all the possible rerolls. 

 

On a other note the evocators are the same. So many mortal wounds on top of the already good weapon damage. 

 

For me, those two units completely replace the old libs and paladins. Which sucks because I have to reinvest and completely lay down the old models. 

 

The Arcanum general tax is not that bad since the Arcanum itself provides lots of support options. 

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1 hour ago, Fyre said:

You don't need elite units with a 20 block of sequitors. I proxied them for a match against khorne and they obliterated everything they touched. His bloodthirster died to the 9 grand weapons alone. They really are bonkers with all the possible rerolls. 

 

On a other note the evocators are the same. So many mortal wounds on top of the already good weapon damage. 

 

For me, those two units completely replace the old libs and paladins. Which sucks because I have to reinvest and completely lay down the old models. 

 

The Arcanum general tax is not that bad since the Arcanum itself provides lots of support options. 

Yeah, but one of my self-imposed principles is that I don't use Stormcast hordes. 20 Stormcast in a single unit are too much to me. It breaks my vision of the army. Shooting myself un the foot? Pretty likely, but that's how I roll.

I agree about Sequitors and Evocators completely replacing those units, though.

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I own 20 paladin retributors, and have been running the Gavriel bomb with them.

They're just dreadful. Unless everything goes off according to plan (Rets drop in near a big point-heavy target, Gav buffs, they charge and 1-round) then they fall apart.

160pts of Ironjawz will completely maul a unit of 5, and cripple a unit of 10. Paladins just don't have any staying power. They are also mathematically objectively worse than Evocators. There's a reddit thread on the math; in exchange for on average 1.3 mortal wound output, Evocators do double the regular wounds, cast spells, dispel spells, move faster, have higher bravery, and cost less.

Anything Retributors did, Evocators do better. My 20 paladins would be better as 20 Evocators 99 times out of 100.

20 Retributors + Gavriel, 980pts, all charging a brick of 30 Vulkite berserkers is unlikely to one-round the unit. You'll be lucky to get 15-20 dwarves depending on ward saves. The dwarves going back into the paladins will do a lot of damage, between rend runes and the like. It also forces you to hyper-commit, and the inevitable 2 other hordes of Fyreslayers will annihilate half your army.

Conversely, 400pts of Sequitors with Evocator buffs or Lord Arcanum buffs will grind away 360pts of Vulkite with their eyes closed, and face-tank the return swing beautifully. 

Heck, even unspported, 400pts of Sequitors will handle a Vulkite brick, unlike Paladins.

Retributors simply don't do anything. They're too heavy in points, too slow on the table which mandates they deepstrike and then pray for 9s on the charge, or require outside support to complete it. They have no defensive tech. Rend 1 and its all over for them. And they're so points-heavy that you don't have space for support.

980pts gets you 20 paladins and Gavriel

1320pts gets you two 20 man sequitor bricks, 2x5 Evocators, and the warscroll battalion. This composition will do twice as much as the above composition, has more wounds, more attacks, anti-spell tech, better bravery and mobility.

 

I'm very frustrated with the state of Paladins. Even at 180pts I don't think they swing it. I think Retributors would also need a 3rd attack to really start justifying their existence. Alternatively, make all paladin units 200pts base and give them M5 and a 3+

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Any thoughts on the following list:

Stormhost - Hammers of Sigmar

Knight Vexillor - General, We Shall Not Fail, God Blade, Pennant of the Stormbringer

Vandus Hammerhand

Gavriel Sureheart

5 Judicators (Bows)

5 Judicators (Bows)

5 Judicators (Bows)

10 Evocators 

3 Vanguard Palladors

3 Vanguard Palladors

Celestar Ballista

Celestar Ballista

Following units on the ground - 3x5 Judicators, 2x3 Palladors, Vexillor

Following units in the air - Gavriel, Evocators, Vandus, 2x Ballista

Vexillor teleports himself to join the strike force from the air and give out the re-rolls. Gavriel uses command ability on the drop, Vandus on subsequent turns. 

Judicators provide fire support and camp objectives while the Palladors go after further afield objectives or form part of a support wave.

Ballistas drop to start pressuring support heroes from close range (casters, buffing pieces etc).

 

What do folks think?

 

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Something will have to change. GW changes things based on knee ****** reactions and public opinion just as bad as Blizzard does with their games. Once they notice every SCE list is almost exclusively Sacrosanct units then the potential nerf hammer will drop. Lets be honest here...other then points reductions here and there GW doesnt ever buff anything. It something is too popular it WILL get swatted down.

GW will either FAQ the ****** out of Evocators and Sequitors somehow. Change their profile? Increase points? Problem is GW backed themselves in a corner with these guys.

Or they could buff the old stuff to being it all up to speed. Dropping points for all Paladins and the older heroes would be a good start.

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Has anyone found a use for Prosecutors yet (besides battalions that require them)

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I just come up with my first army list in 2 year after a svery long pause. The list  for upcoming matched play event. The concept is to put out as many missile as possible while still have some manoeuvrability. But I don't know if it can sustain against hard-hitting army or not since it composes of nearly pure Vanguard Chamber. Also still haven't decided artefact yet. Any advise will be most appreciated.

 

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Edited by Lissë-Prime

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1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

GW will either FAQ the ****** out of Evocators and Sequitors somehow. Change their profile? Increase points? Problem is GW backed themselves in a corner with these guys.

Or they could buff the old stuff to being it all up to speed. Dropping points for all Paladins and the older heroes would be a good start.

I would much rather they drop the points of the older units than increase the points for sacrosanct units.  Libs to 90 and pallys to the old elite price of 180 maybe?  I don't feel like SC get many breaks on unit costs, a couple units may be 20pts  undercosted but so many more are over by 20+, so I really don't want to see  increases to new/good stuff. I already struggle to make effective balanced lists with enough bodies to cover objectives, grave sites, gnarl maws, etc...

Which brings me to this: What does a balanced army look like with new book? Previously I tried to get a nice mix of shooting and melee power.  Now with magic thrown in the mix I am having a hard time balancing everything to my liking.  It's very likely it is just me as I am not a great list designer, lol.  What do you guys think, can an effective army be had with a bit of everything(magic, combat, shooting) or is skewing to do one or two things well at the expense of the other the most effective way to go?

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41 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Has anyone found a use for Prosecutors yet (besides battalions that require them)

Taking into account those battalions are now rubbish, I doubt people will keep using them for that. On the other hand, their 3d6 charge could make them useful in min-sized units to deepstrike and tie shooters and fast units, or to kill characters without bubble wrap.

Not a lot more besides that, really. 

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10 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Taking into account those battalions are now rubbish, I doubt people will keep using them for that. On the other hand, their 3d6 charge could make them useful in min-sized units to deepstrike and tie shooters and fast units, or to kill characters without bubble wrap.

Not a lot more besides that, really. 

For sure. They're 100pts and 4+ with a little unit superweapon. They fly and shoot and do long charges. I'm not sure what people can reasonably expect of them beyond that.

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Hey guys, i have 3 Questions.

1. Evocators or Evocators on Dracoline which are better?

2. Dracolines or Fulminators.

3. Which weapon choice is the best for Evocators?

Edited by Erdemo86
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20 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Hey guys, i have 3 Questions.

1. Evocators or Evocators on Dracoline which are better?

2. Dracolines or Fulminators.

3. Which weapon choice is the best for Evocators?

1. Hard to say. Yet. I think both have their place.

2. Fulminators on the charge are going to do more damage but Dracolines are going to get that charge off better. Fulminators are a full 60 pts cheaper but only 2 vs 3. I believe that Fulminators come out slightly on top for damage done.

3. Grandstaves are better than Tempest Blades on every thing 3+ and up.

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9 minutes ago, AwareTheLegend said:

3. Grandstaves are better than Tempest Blades on every thing 3+ and up.

no rend doesn't matter? been wondering this aswell..

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4 minutes ago, nine7six said:

no rend doesn't matter? been wondering this aswell..

Honestly the difference is less than a wound at 3+ and only 2 wounds at 6+

Keep in mind none of this includes self buffing. I haven't run the numbers on rerolling failed wound rolls but I believe it makes Grandstaves even better.

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Hi new player here and abit confused. Can you take a Stormhost for free in your army list or does it work like a battalion?, If you do take a stormhost do you 'have' to take all the traits etc instead of the standard ones or is it in addition to the standard ones and you get both, or do you get to choose which one you prefer? Is there anywhere i can see what the stormhosts consist of without have to buy the new battletomb?

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8 minutes ago, AwareTheLegend said:

Honestly the difference is less than a wound at 3+ and only 2 wounds at 6+

Keep in mind none of this includes self buffing. I haven't run the numbers on rerolling failed wound rolls but I believe it makes Grandstaves even better.

nice! i wanted to run them in my tempest lords list with lord celestant on foot giving them +1 to hit and +1 to wound then buff themselves on rerolling to wounds with a knight azyros right behind so they can reroll hits aswell :)

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1 minute ago, brad said:

Hi new player here and abit confused. Can you take a Stormhost for free in your army list or does it work like a battalion?, If you do take a stormhost do you 'have' to take all the traits etc instead of the standard ones or is it in addition to the standard ones and you get both, or do you get to choose which one you prefer? Is there anywhere i can see what the stormhosts consist of without have to buy the new battletomb?

Hey there,

 

Stormhosts don't cost points. If you choose one of the Stormhosts though, your General MUST have the Command Trait described in that Stormhost and the first artifact you pick for your army MUST  be the one mentioned in that Stormhost also. You still have all the other artifacts available to take, but only if you include a battalion in your list-thus having  access in a second artifact.

 

Hope this sums it up :) 

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2 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Taking into account those battalions are now rubbish, I doubt people will keep using them for that. On the other hand, their 3d6 charge could make them useful in min-sized units to deepstrike and tie shooters and fast units, or to kill characters without bubble wrap.

Not a lot more besides that, really. 

3d6 charge is unique, but their damage output in melee is abysmal and with only 6 wounds they won't be able to tie down anything for long.

If the Grandaxe had 2" reach I might consider them as a surgical anti-horde deep strike unit... Doesn't seem like they're worth the 100pt.

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29 minutes ago, Aydwen said:

Hey there,

 

Stormhosts don't cost points. If you choose one of the Stormhosts though, your General MUST have the Command Trait described in that Stormhost and the first artifact you pick for your army MUST  be the one mentioned in that Stormhost also. You still have all the other artifacts available to take, but only if you include a battalion in your list-thus having  access in a second artifact.

 

Hope this sums it up :) 

perfectly thank you very much. Is there anywhere i can see all the artifacts and stormhosts or do i need to buy the battletomb for that in addition to all the other books ? it seems abit of a waste because apart from those i have everything else i need to start a game. Generals book, malign sorcery book and general rule book all already bought, its just seems never ending just to find out all the rules. 

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2 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Taking into account those battalions are now rubbish, I doubt people will keep using them for that. On the other hand, their 3d6 charge could make them useful in min-sized units to deepstrike and tie shooters and fast units, or to kill characters without bubble wrap.

Not a lot more besides that, really. 

I think Javelin Prosecutors are still fine-ish. 2 damage at range for 100 points isn't anything to scoff at, as a hit and run unit. Of all our shooting units, they're the fastest, so if you want to poke and scoot, they're a decent choice.

But I think now with prices the same and Scions being guaranteed, Hammer Prosecutors are quite strong. That 9" Scions charge is better than average for them, and they can tie up shooting units quite well and do good damage. A unit of 6 with 2 Grandweapons will put the hurt on most foot heroes and/or small shooting units like Judicators.

1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Hey guys, i have 3 Questions.

1. Evocators or Evocators on Dracoline which are better?

2. Dracolines or Fulminators.

3. Which weapon choice is the best for Evocators?

1) Both are ok. Foot Evocators are far better for the points, but the speed of Dracolines is not to be discounted. 12" with rerolling charges is quite good, but foot versions will blow them out of the water damage wise.

2) Fulminators have way better armor and hit harder on the charge, plus have a shooting attack so they can interact with the opponent even if they fail the charge. Dracolines have 50% more wounds (so better against MWs, weaker against regular Wounds) and are faster baseline. Both have their place, depending on the rest of the army.

3) I personally think a mix of both. More attacks is nice, but the really nice thing is that Grandstaves have a reach of 2" so you can fight in 2 ranks easier. You can mix and match.

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6 minutes ago, brad said:

perfectly thank you very much. Is there anywhere i can see all the artifacts and stormhosts or do i need to buy the battletomb for that in addition to all the other books ? it seems abit of a waste because apart from those i have everything else i need to start a game. Generals book, malign sorcery book and general rule book all already bought, its just seems never ending just to find out all the rules. 

The core book isnt necessary, the core rules are free.

Warscrolls for units are free. You need the battletome to get allegiance abilities (artifacts, spells, etc.) and battalions.

Malign Sorcery has realm artifacts and additional spells for the realm you are playing in, which are optional. The book comes with the endless spell models.

Generals handbook is the annual supplement for the game. These days it is almost exclusively for matched play, though some armies have their allegiance abilities printed in there since they don't have them in battletomes.

So if you just want to put your dudes on the table and roll dice you dont need to buy any books. If you want to get the most out of your army you should get the battletome

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31 minutes ago, PJetski said:

3d6 charge is unique, but their damage output in melee is abysmal and with only 6 wounds they won't be able to tie down anything for long.

I think the change to targeting means that a hammer+shield unit could drop in and *possibly* tie up a large shooter unit for a turn before being blasted - taking advantage of the -1 to be hit from Scions and maybe killing a couple on the charge with the grandhammer. Problem is how many armies will still be running a large unit of shooters that aren't very capable in combat? Raptors or Kunnin Rukk? I can't think of any off the top of my head...

36 minutes ago, PJetski said:

If the Grandaxe had 2" reach I might consider them as a surgical anti-horde deep strike unit... Doesn't seem like they're worth the 100pt.

100% agree, I have never understood why their axe only has a 1" range.

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15 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I think the change to targeting means that a hammer+shield unit could drop in and *possibly* tie up a large shooter unit for a turn before being blasted - taking advantage of the -1 to be hit from Scions and maybe killing a couple on the charge with the grandhammer. Problem is how many armies will still be running a large unit of shooters that aren't very capable in combat? Raptors or Kunnin Rukk? I can't think of any off the top of my head...

100% agree, I have never understood why their axe only has a 1" range.

I think an interesting change to Prosecutors would be dropping the special weapon limit and letting them all choose a weapon.

It would make the whole unit more interesting in my opinion. 

I doubt we would see that because you couldn't build that straight out of the kit.

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Quick question that ay already have been asked.

The new  Lord Castelant warscroll states that after set up you can call a gryph hound. Does this mean you don't have to include the cost of the hound in your army as this is an ability?

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Just now, Alfascozzesi said:

Quick question that ay already have been asked.

The new  Lord Castelant warscroll states that after set up you can call a gryph hound. Does this mean you don't have to include the cost of the hound in your army as this is an ability?

Exactly, it's free now. It's also the only way to get 1 Gryph Hound into your list (well him and the Veritant)

Edited by Requizen

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