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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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10 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Regarding Celestant Prime, I got into a discussion regarding his "retribution from on high", we have been playing it with the Scions of the storm rule of 1 unit on the table for each in the celestial realm, however I got to thinking, that nothing on the Primes warscroll mentions this and the ability seems completely unrelated.

For example, would it then not be possible to have 3 units of liberators on the board and 3 in the celestial realm and then also the prime in the heavens in reserve?

Yep, the Prime's deepstrike rules are separate from faction rules. He can be up after r3 and he can be +1 in the sky. He doesn't count as 1 of the units in the army in the sky.

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Do i roll for each unit or roll once for MW from Prime shooting attack? 

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8 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Do i roll for each unit or roll once for MW from Prime shooting attack? 

He does D3mw in D6". You roll once.

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And never forget that a charge roll is 2 d6 so auto 12 inch charge ;) .   Sadly he does ****** damage till turn 3. And even then it is often not enough. 

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4 hours ago, Maturin said:

He does D3mw in D6". You roll once.

I dont think so. My TO rules it that you roll for each unit. 

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1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

I dont think so. My TO rules it that you roll for each unit. 

Is it written "roll for each unit" on the warscroll ?
If yes, then proceed as the TO says.
If it's written "does D3MW in a D6" then you do as I said.
A good comparison is the Stardrake warscroll. It does say you have to roll for each unit. The Prime's one doesn't.

 

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7 hours ago, Maturin said:

then you do as I said.

Sir, yes sir.  💂 ;) 

The warscroll says; ‘ each unit within d6” of that point suffers D3 mortal wounds’ 

I’ve always interpreted this as roll the d6, check which units are within range. Roll a D3 for each unit. 

in the end it’s just annoying that GW isn’t more exact and standardised with how they word things like those. Similar abilities are/were differently worded on different warscrolls. So I think, especially with an older warscroll, that the comparison to a similar ability doesn’t make it a certainty. 

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49 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Sir, yes sir.  💂 ;) 

The warscroll says; ‘ each unit within d6” of that point suffers D3 mortal wounds’ 

I’ve always interpreted this as roll the d6, check which units are within range. Roll a D3 for each unit. 

in the end it’s just annoying that GW isn’t more exact and standardised with how they word things like those. Similar abilities are/were differently worded on different warscrolls. So I think, especially with an older warscroll, that the comparison to a similar ability doesn’t make it a certainty. 

Alright lads, atten'hut!
Yeah, GW wording's are inconsistent as they can be that's why we need to check out other scrolls to understand sutff. Pain in the buttocks.

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So this came up in a game the other day, I read it as you roll a d3 and every unit within the radius takes that many wounds rather than rolling for each but I asked my opponent to read the rule and pick what interpretation they thought fit best and they went for the same even though it meant they would lose 2 heroes from it, so take that for what you will. 

 

 

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Just now, Mattrulesok said:

So this came up in a game the other day, I read it as you roll a d3 and every unit within the radius takes that many wounds rather than rolling for each but I asked my opponent to read the rule and pick what interpretation they thought fit best and they went for the same even though it meant they would lose 2 heroes from it, so take that for what you will. 

 

 

Well that's good gesture on your behalf.
That's how we've played the prime, you can read dozens of pages in the Starcast thread with @Turragor and @Marcvs.

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3 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

So this came up in a game the other day, I read it as you roll a d3 and every unit within the radius takes that many wounds rather than rolling for each but I asked my opponent to read the rule and pick what interpretation they thought fit best and they went for the same even though it meant they would lose 2 heroes from it, so take that for what you will. 

 

 

I agree with that. It also makes the whole process shorter than rolling for each unit.

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MODERATOR POST

Ok I've just cleaned out most of that minor spat. People are free to resume posting.

NOTE its ok to disagree when interpreting rules that might have a vague wording or could be missunderstood. Disagreeing is fine, but lets leave out starting to make attacks on other peoples character or to start getting angry when people disagree with your viewpoint. Debate the rule and the point and leave personal comments out of it. 

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Trying this again then, but more PC.

The Prime’s comet strike is worded vaguely. Both interpretations can be valid by the way that it’s worded. Rolling a single D3 for the damage instead of for every unit gives you an advantage because you can change the result of the dice with the fates ability.

My preference is that when I’m given a vaguely worded rule that can be interpreted in one of two ways, I choose the one that is worse for me instead of best. I think this is generally a good way to go when looking at rules that could go either way, and it might be a reason the TO rules to roll seperately for each unit.

Finally, on the subject of other similar strike abilities in the book, the fact that they resolve damage on each unit seperate makes me feel that it adds strength to doing the same with the prime. The fact that no other language was used to qualify it, in my opinion, was both for the sake of brevity and also an assumption from the rules writers that it was clear how to do it without needing additional clarity.

 I agree after the subject’s been brought up that the rule could be worded better, and that it needs an FAQ if large pockets of players are playing it two different ways.
 

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14 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

The Prime’s comet strike is worded vaguely. Both interpretations can be valid by the way that it’s worded. Rolling a single D3 for the damage instead of for every unit gives you an advantage because you can change the result of the dice with the fates ability.

My preference is that when I’m given a vaguely worded rule that can be interpreted in one of two ways, I choose the one that is worse for me instead of best. I think this is generally a good way to go when looking at rules that could go either way, and it might be a reason the TO rules to roll seperately for each unit.

There was the same heated kind of debate about Longstrike's 24" or 30" before the movement phase, with you and some other guys.
You were a staunch supporter of the 24" rule before any movement applied. You were right as when it got FAQed, it's your vision of the rules that was applied.

Now the thing is, you as an individual always choose to take the side of  what's worst for you. That's your right. 
Now, when I play, I go for what seems to be the most logical. Not whats best for me or whats worst. Sometimes, logic dictates that my opponent gets a really strong feature. Sometimes it's my army.

When you play a 340 points, 3+ save with no invulnerable save 8 wound heroes that can miss a lot with no built in RR fails hits or wounds but has access to ONE result of his choice for ANY(almost) Roll of his choice, it just seems logic, since not contradicted by the rules, that his Scepter attack does the same amount of MW in a radius, and in this case, yes, you can choose it. It seems highly illogical to have a hero as expensive, if he doesn't get at least a trick.

 

Edited by Maturin

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On 7/30/2020 at 1:31 AM, Tizianolol said:

Guys a question about eatherwings. Can i move them 2d6 within 3" of an enemy unit that  is charging if im within 18" my longstrike unit?or i have to move maximum 3" far enemy unit like normal? Ty all!

Yes, you can. That rule is just for the movement phase.

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4 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

My preference is that when I’m given a vaguely worded rule that can be interpreted in one of two ways, I choose the one that is worse for me instead of best.

My current preference is to ask TOs before the tourney how they want me to play these kinds of rules in my SC lists. So I save myself the bother on the day. It's usually this and Stormwinged  (which I did a massive analysis of in the Starcast thread - but I never want to make a tourney opponent read it haha)

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7 hours ago, Maturin said:

There was the same heated kind of debate about Longstrike's 24" or 30" before the movement phase, with you and some other guys.
You were a staunch supporter of the 24" rule before any movement applied. You were right as when it got FAQed, it's your vision of the rules that was applied.

Now the thing is, you as an individual always choose to take the side of  what's worst for you. That's your right. 
Now, when I play, I go for what seems to be the most logical. Not whats best for me or whats worst. Sometimes, logic dictates that my opponent gets a really strong feature. Sometimes it's my army.

When you play a 340 points, 3+ save with no invulnerable save 8 wound heroes that can miss a lot with no built in RR fails hits or wounds but has access to ONE result of his choice for ANY(almost) Roll of his choice, it just seems logic, since not contradicted by the rules, that his Scepter attack does the same amount of MW in a radius, and in this case, yes, you can choose it. It seems highly illogical to have a hero as expensive, if he doesn't get at least a trick.

 

I'm not as positive about this ruling as I was the Longstrike one. My understanding at this time is that the same logic that you're applying to say it's interpreted one way (ie the rule doesn't explicitly say to do it one way, and there are some similar abilities that do) is the same logic I'm using to say it shouldn't be done that way. I feel that if they wanted it to work that way, they would have explicitly said that, and in the absence of that, I look at similar abilities in the same book and have it work in a similar way (ie resolving damage against each target seperately). I can see a good argument for either method.

My concern, as with the Longstrike debate, is the level of confidence that you're placing in your answers on the public forum. We're in a stormcast group where everyone here has a vested interest in having it work a certain way, so you're in a situation where you can easily create an echo chamber where everyone eagerly agrees with you and doesn't want to see it any other way. If you at least admit that it's open to interpretation and that the rule is vaguely worded, that's good enough for me to agree to disagree.

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My take on this is each means for each unit a D3  damage roll has to be done, whether if they had written every then I would do a single D3 roll. 

Each and every are nearly the same but then they aren't.

But as mentioned asking before the game is probably best :D

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12 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

My concern, as with the Longstrike debate, is the level of confidence that you're placing in your answers on the public forum. We're in a stormcast group where everyone here has a vested interest in having it work a certain way, so you're in a situation where you can easily create an echo chamber where everyone eagerly agrees with you and doesn't want to see it any other way.

I understand the point you make, but your next sentence is once again, very strangely worded.

12 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

If you at least admit that it's open to interpretation and that the rule is vaguely worded, that's good enough for me to agree to disagree.

I don't have to admit to anything, I'm not a criminal and I'm not guilty of anything. You're not the supreme authority on SCE rules neither am I. I don't require anything from you, you have your opinion on the rule, I have mine. Freedom of thoughts and speech.

In the end it doesn't really matters. When we play somewhere, we have to accept how the To will interpret the rules anyway.

I do wish those rules were written in a clearer way, that would save us some time "fighting" about how to interpret them.
Have a good day.

 

Edited by Maturin
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1 hour ago, Maturin said:

Each means ALL units in the D6 distance are affected. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever about how the roll has to be made.

Grammar, look it up

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13 minutes ago, Maturin said:

@schwabbele You're out because I'm french ? Wow.

Kind off, mentioning french made me assume English is not your first language, so I decided for me bringing grammar in the equation is probably not the best. ( I know as a German speaker , native translated rules can even be more confusing when compared to the english ones ) 

but nothing against you or french people :)

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