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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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5 hours ago, Juicy said:

Really hope that our liberators getting some kind of defensive buf and our judicators drop 20 points.  

I dunno, are Judicators worth it at 140? Still p expensive if you ask me for a Liberator with a bow. I'd rather they be good shooters than cheap shooters.

Liberators are in a bad spot due to being the baseline unit for much of AoS. Compare to stuff like Chaos Warriors who are strictly superior in virtually every dimension and are still one of the crappier units in their own book. I honestly doubt GW is up to fixing them since it would require a deep dive overhaul of probably both SCE in totality, and the Liberator warscroll individually. Especially since new rules probably means SCE battleline opens up like everyone else's has and there are good odds that leaves Liberators in the dust if anything else becomes remotely take-able.

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Im not sure, 140 points for judicators could see them being played more and wouldnt be to OP to field as allies. I would love it to be even lower points at some where around 120 but i cant see that hapening. I couldnt believe my eyes when after 2 point adjustments these judicators are still 160 points for this insanely low damage output they have.

for Liberators i think they should be a defensive unit that can sit like a roadblock. Think we need a new book for that.  And so many people have liberators in there shelves that i dont think they get a huge buff. GW needs to make money from units we hardly play. Incoming prosecutors being battleline and doing everything 

 

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Lets give judicators a little bit of statshammer:

A 5 man squad will do an average of ~3.72 damage to a 6+ save.  To compare a similar shooting unit, lets take a look at the Cities of Sigmar irondrakes.  Irondrakes cost 150/10, have a 4+ save (3+ vs shooting), and get to shoot twice if they don't move and no one is within 3" of them.  A unit of irondrakes will deal ~4.9 damage on average to a 6+ save, IF they move AND they don't have any buffs running.  Keep them stationary?  Congrats, you just doubled their damage to a solid ~9.8.

This is a direct comparison of just the raw warscroll power between the two units.  Judicators should probably have a little bit less damage than irondrakes because they can decend from the sky in stormcast armies, and they have a 24" range as well.  But about 1/3 the damage of unbuffed drakes?  This is getting a little ridiculous.  On top of that, drakes have easy ways to get +1 to hit (hurricanum, or greywater command ability), a few easy ways to get +1 to wound (tempest eye's hawk eyed trair, or Hallowheart ignite weapons), and they can re-roll 1's to hit from a command point or greywater command ability, and they can re-roll 1's to wound with some longbeards.  Oh, and they can buff their rend from a runelord prayer as well.  Fully buffed, a squad of 10 irondrakes can expect to do ~20 damage per shooting phase.

As for judicators, how can they be buffed?  Anvils shoot in command phase with a command point? umm... thats about it?  How are these things worth 160 points?

I know cities is much more of a shooting army than stormcast, and that stormcast are SUPPOSED to be a strong melee army (even if they actually aren't).  But the disparity here is a little ridiculous.  I don't think lowering the points cost of the judicators is going to be enough though.  They need some sort of buff - either they all get shockbolt bows, or they all get an extra attack, or extra damage from the bows.  Something.

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Posted (edited)

@readercolin

To add to this, there is a lot of debate about whether or not Irondrakes are actually a good shooting unit compared to other choices in the game book, namely Freeguild stuff and Sisters of the Watch. And as you said they're also point-for-point tougher than Judicators and have better synergies with access to CoS spells and buffs, dispossessed bonuses and better cities allegiances et.

All that and the jury's out as to if Irondrakes are a good unit. Doesn't leave Judicators attractive and I have to wonder how terrible somebody's army book would have to be to seriously consider using them as an ally.

Edited by NauticalSoup

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Yes. Some armies are designed to have weak warscrolls that are boosted by combinations of synergies and allegiance abilities. Others have strong warscrolls spported by weaker allegiance abilities. We have barely got an allegiance ability and most of our scrolls are barely changed from AOS1.

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Hi all, I am a new stormcast player and I was wondering If It is whorth buying the tome or wait for revamp ¿What do you think? I am a casual player.

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4 minutes ago, Argonte said:

Hi all, I am a new stormcast player and I was wondering If It is whorth buying the tome or wait for revamp ¿What do you think? I am a casual player.

Wait!

 

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4 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Wait!

 

Well, at the same time, while everyone seems certain that a new tome is just around the corner: a) we do not have any official announcement or schedule or roadmap to know when this will be; b) with other releases being somewhat pushed back because of the covid-19 situation, it seems unlikely that the new BT will be released before autumn-winter (considering they still need to launch the lumineth and sons of bahamat ones). In fact, when I started with stormcast last December, many people told me to wait for a new battletome and here we are :D

So when considering the choice of buying the battletome now I would essentially weight the amount of gaming one might be doing in the next 6 months vs the price of the battletome (proportionally reduced by the amount of gaming one might still have with the information out there)

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Thank you very much for the responses, i think i will wait because as @MarcSneivo said i wont have enaught game to amortize the tome.

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Consider maybe a used tome before the new one comes out? At least in my country there are plenty of them available in the net. Many frustrated SCE players getting rid of it 😅

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If for nothing else, the book is a really enjoyable read. If you like learning about the background of your army of choice then I would highly recommend it. I got the book randomly in a deal. Never had any inclination to start SCE but then I read it and was instantly hooked. 

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8 hours ago, lare2 said:

If for nothing else, the book is a really enjoyable read. If you like learning about the background of your army of choice then I would highly recommend it. I got the book randomly in a deal. Never had any inclination to start SCE but then I read it and was instantly hooked. 

Dunno if I'd agree. You can get most of this with a google search if you really care - but honestly, as someone who's been playing both AoS and 40k for a long time, the SCE battletome is a pretty uninspiring work as far as lore pieces go. I wouldn't even give it high marks within the extremely narrow confines of AoS lore pieces in general. I guess it's an improvement from previous SCE fluff?

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On 5/19/2020 at 10:22 PM, NauticalSoup said:

Dunno if I'd agree. You can get most of this with a google search if you really care - but honestly, as someone who's been playing both AoS and 40k for a long time, the SCE battletome is a pretty uninspiring work as far as lore pieces go. I wouldn't even give it high marks within the extremely narrow confines of AoS lore pieces in general. I guess it's an improvement from previous SCE fluff?

I'd agree.  Been playing Stormcast since the beginning of the game.  IMO the earlier battletome's were better reads than the latest one.  

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Who knows when a new tome will be released. The generals handbook only covers points changes so there wont be any warscroll changes till at the earliest the end of the year.

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58 minutes ago, Heaven_lord said:

Hey, what do you guys think about this list for competitive play ?

 

IMG_20200523_145335.jpg

I hope you like losing?

For threats in this list you have... a stardrake.  Which are notoriously pillow fisted, and only really work in a list that is dedicated to doing mortal wound spam to eliminate key buff pieces for units, which this list doesn't have enough of.  As for the rest of your list, both judicators and liberators have terrible warscrolls, and minimum sized units of paladins are just asking for your opponent to come in and blow you out, as they aren't big enough to be a significant threat.

Take a look at either the starcast thread or the shootcast thread.  Those are the only two lists that are remotely capable of competitive play at the moment.  While those two lists are capable of going 3-2, with the occasional 4-1, something like this is far more likely to be a 1-4 or a 2-3 on a lucky day.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, readercolin said:

I hope you like losing?

For threats in this list you have... a stardrake.  Which are notoriously pillow fisted, and only really work in a list that is dedicated to doing mortal wound spam to eliminate key buff pieces for units, which this list doesn't have enough of.  As for the rest of your list, both judicators and liberators have terrible warscrolls, and minimum sized units of paladins are just asking for your opponent to come in and blow you out, as they aren't big enough to be a significant threat.

Take a look at either the starcast thread or the shootcast thread.  Those are the only two lists that are remotely capable of competitive play at the moment.  While those two lists are capable of going 3-2, with the occasional 4-1, something like this is far more likely to be a 1-4 or a 2-3 on a lucky day.

While I agree with the negative take, for the sake of completeness and list variation it's worth mentioning that there is a guy (I've seen him posting on the fb groups, don't know whether he hangs around here) who had a decent result (3-2 and 35th place I think) at Hammer&Bolter (100 players tournament in Belgium) with a Skyborne Slayers list.  Here's what he was playing:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Lord-Celestant (100)
-
 General
- Trait: Champion of the Realms
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Knight-Vexillor (120)
-
 Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Artefact: Spellshield
Celestant-Prime (340)
Excelsior Warpriest (80)
-
 Allies

Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
-
 Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
-
 Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows

Units
10 x Protectors (360)
-
 4x Starsoul Maces
5 x Decimators (180)
-
 2x Starsoul Maces

Battalions
Skyborne Slayers (190)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 118

 

Edited by Marcvs
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Somebody should sticky a note to the top of the Stormcast forum,  If you're looking for a very competitive army you have three choices Starcast, ShootCast, another army.

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32 minutes ago, chord said:

Somebody should sticky a note to the top of the Stormcast forum,  If you're looking for a very competitive army you have three choices Starcast, ShootCast, another army.

Do you think if it is safe with the new GHB comming to invest in a shootcast or starcast army ?

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1 hour ago, Heaven_lord said:

Do you think if it is safe with the new GHB comming to invest in a shootcast or starcast army ?

Eh, probably not until after we see the GHB.  The GHB will just adjust the points the overall weakness in the SCE army will still be un-addressed.

NOW if you are just playing with some friends for fun and not being really competitive you can feel safe to invest in the SCE.  The large variety makes putting together fun narrative armies great. 

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4 hours ago, Marcvs said:

While I agree with the negative take, for the sake of completeness and list variation it's worth mentioning that there is a guy (I've seen him posting on the fb groups, don't know whether he hangs around here) who had a decent result (3-2 and 35th place I think) at Hammer&Bolter (100 players tournament in Belgium) with a Skyborne Slayers list.  Here's what he was playing:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Lord-Celestant (100)
-
 General
- Trait: Champion of the Realms
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Knight-Vexillor (120)
-
 Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Artefact: Spellshield
Celestant-Prime (340)
Excelsior Warpriest (80)
-
 Allies

Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
-
 Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
-
 Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
-
 Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows

Units
10 x Protectors (360)
-
 4x Starsoul Maces
5 x Decimators (180)
-
 2x Starsoul Maces

Battalions
Skyborne Slayers (190)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 118

 

Yeah it was me playing this list. Played the first game against a really strong opponent with a top tier fyreslayer list. Lost hard but learned a lot.  Next game i was up against a full gunline city's army, I did beat him by making full advantage of the skyborne slayers ability. Next game was against a hard Daughters of Khaine list with morathi. Lost in turn 5 al of the fail of 1 dice roll to make a charge onto the objective so was pretty close. Next game vs another strong heartguard massed fyreslayer list. Won that 1. Then i won vs a Nurgle list but felt like that was the first match i went into without feeling very very underpowerd. I still play this list and changes some things but keeping the core with the skyborne slayer intact. Playing it almost every week against a lot of differant lists and tiers. Its hard to play the same guy twice with it cause he know whats coming. So i tent to win first then lose the second match most of the time cause people screen a lot. Still having fun and the skyborne slayers do take people by surpise. But its no where near good enough to do damage. So i play avoid fights and hug on objectives most of the time and thats not the intention of GW his skyborne slayers;)

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4 hours ago, Heaven_lord said:

Do you think if it is safe with the new GHB comming to invest in a shootcast or starcast army ?

I think it's probably safe to just not invest in SCE, full stop. Wait until a new book is not just announced, but we start getting leaks - ie just play something else.

The way GW handles points adjustments we're just as likely to see SCE's few good units get points nerfs as we are to see any tangible buffs.

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On 5/19/2020 at 4:06 AM, Argonte said:

Hi all, I am a new stormcast player and I was wondering If It is whorth buying the tome or wait for revamp ¿What do you think? I am a casual player.

i'd recommend getting it to browse and read, i love just looking through battletomes: the art is great and you get painting how-tos on top of all the fluff.

On 5/19/2020 at 10:22 PM, NauticalSoup said:

Dunno if I'd agree. You can get most of this with a google search if you really care - but honestly, as someone who's been playing both AoS and 40k for a long time, the SCE battletome is a pretty uninspiring work as far as lore pieces go. I wouldn't even give it high marks within the extremely narrow confines of AoS lore pieces in general. I guess it's an improvement from previous SCE fluff?

which battletomes would you recommend purely for lore pieces?

On 5/21/2020 at 8:41 AM, chord said:

I'd agree.  Been playing Stormcast since the beginning of the game.  IMO the earlier battletome's were better reads than the latest one.  

in what way? if the lore is better maybe I should check one of the older books out 😅

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1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

which battletomes would you recommend purely for lore pieces?

I have yet to read an Age of Sigmar product that I would recommend for lore reasons.

To expand on that, the ones I have read thus fall pretty short of what we've seen in the past from both WHFB and 40k. They're overall better than they were, but still pretty mediocre. The setting just doesn't have the meat of its progenitor since it's about these endlessly vast wishy-washy spaces that exist solely as a backdrop for people to butt heads in.

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