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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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30 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The space marine chapters with their own supplement have unique units and distinct playstyles.

It wouldn't work with Stormcast because our stormhosts don't really have any kind of strategic identity. If all the stormhosts had unique models and specific playstyles then it would make sense to give them their own supplements.

This largely isn't true. Imperial Fists have two unique units and they're both special characters. Salamanders have two unique units and they're both special characters. Iron Hands have one unique unit and it's a special character. Are you seeing a pattern?

Codex Space Marine chapters have never required their own bespoke splatbooks for 30 years of the game's history. This is something that literally just changed in 2019. The only chapters that traditionally had their own books were the EXTREMELY different ones, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves (once upon a time Black Templars but they got rolled back into Codex Space Marines after 5th). And importantly, they do not get access to the full range of vanilla toys. In this scenario it would be like if Hallowed Knights weren't allowed to use Stormcast Eternals, and had to use the Hallowed Knights book and armylist instead. Their special stuff represents a substitution for the vanilla stuff. Blood Angels have been whining about not having Thunderfire Cannons for 10 years. But for anyone who isn't one of those 3, you used the SM book.

Remember that Space Marine chapters are even smaller than stormhosts (at least by most reports of a stormhost's capabilities). There's only so much room for strategic identity in an organization that's basically locked to battalion strength.

Edit: Marine chapters do have identities that differentiate them in their tactics and strategies, but nearly all chapters still use virtually the entire arsenal of units. The identities describe preferences rather than capabilities. This is, incidentally, almost exactly like Stormhosts.

Edited by NauticalSoup

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I agree that the SCE stormhosts could be adapted to their own books very easily, and that the parallel to what's been done with SMs applies equally.

As a Hammers of Sigmar player, all you'd have to do to make me "happy" is to give some bonuses to redeemer units and dracoths and dragons. Maybe a special dracoth assault unit or a special redeemer unit with some extra rules etc.... You could even give the army some extra arm-wide rules. Yes, it would probably not be fair to the other stormhosts, but gosh darnet we already have more special characters than most space marine chapters get several times over.

Vandus, Gavriel, Aventis, Astrea, neave blacktalon... sheesh that's enough right there to get our own supplement.

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For my part I think that a series of Stormhost supplements would be impractical. I'd rather they just fine-tune the Stormhosts in the book so they were more useful and added real flavor.

That said,  I wouldn't mind if GW gave us ways to customize our own Stormhost. Just, preferably all in one book.

Still, we've got big red buttons for 3 more named chambers just waiting for a Sigmar "The hell I can't!"  We didn't get anything last year, so who knows, maybe there's an update in the near(ish) future? If they do pop a new chamber, I hope it's more like Extremis. Just a few models. We don't really need much else, we just need what we already have to be good.

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@Mark Williams I wouldn't want it to happen because I despise rules bloat, but Hammers of Sigmar having their own special supplement is definitely within the realm of possibility and would be a trivially easy way for GW to spell a bunch of books. The only thing that might stop it is the sheer volume of negativity surrounding 40k's marine supplements.

@OkayestDM Hopefully the Sacrosanct Chamber opening doesn't signal how they intend to release new lines in the future, with all the focus being on just the new miniatures while all the old warscrolls continue to collect dust. Sacrosanct having their own basic infantry "Liberator, only better" model is... worrying.

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19 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams I wouldn't want it to happen because I despise rules bloat, but Hammers of Sigmar having their own special supplement is definitely within the realm of possibility and would be a trivially easy way for GW to spell a bunch of books. The only thing that might stop it is the sheer volume of negativity surrounding 40k's marine supplements.

I don't keep up with 40k community much mostly because there's nothing like TGA on that side of the game that I know of.

However, I'm a long-time player of Salamanders, ever since they appeared in the Armageddon book in 3rd ed. I was ecstatic last year when they brought out that supplement, and I've enjoyed it a lot. For me personally, I loved it and I don't want them to take my book away again. I didn't realize there were people who were angry about it.

Just finished this guy a few weeks ago and love the model.

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@Mark Williams To many (myself included) the supplements and the subsequent psychic awakening books (plus vigilus before) represent a level of rules bloat in 40k that has rendered the game unsalvageable. AoS is my only game now even though I own 10,000 pts of Space Marines. I have two close friends going to a big 40k event this month and they're both carrying, and I kid you not, about 35 lbs. worth of books each. The supplements are just one facet of this bloat but they're an unfortunate trend in how GW has handled 8th.

The other side is that they make power creep unmanageable (because you have units whose performance varies so massively from chapter to chapter and makes points balances impossible) so you need tons and tons and tons of errata and faqs for multiple books, which also expands the bloat. If you don't follow the comp scene Space Marines are absolutely stomping now and represent a large majority of placing lists in comp events. 

So how this relates to Sigmar is that 8th edition 40k represents, to me, a worst-case-scenario. A fail state of horrendous bloat and power creep that only a massive reset (ironically, like 8th edition) could fix.

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They just rereleased the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook (specialist game) and for the first time i can remember they updated it with their current FAQ. I hope that gets repeated for all the books, i'd drop a few bucks to get all rules and errata rolled in.

I would really love a subscription based electronic solution. Let me pay 10€ a month to get access to all rules and keep them updated. Besides hardback lovers i don't know of a player that wouldn't go with that.

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34 minutes ago, Lucur said:

They just rereleased the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook (specialist game) and for the first time i can remember they updated it with their current FAQ. I hope that gets repeated for all the books, i'd drop a few bucks to get all rules and errata rolled in.

I would really love a subscription based electronic solution. Let me pay 10€ a month to get access to all rules and keep them updated. Besides hardback lovers i don't know of a player that wouldn't go with that.

I'll move to electronic when the navigation system of the rules gets to the point that I can:

1) Go to an index of the main rules set, and quickly jump to any section I want without scrolling or searching.

2) Go to an index of the battle tome for the arm I'm playing, and quickly jump to any section I want without scrolling or searching.

3) Create an army list and have all of the warscrolls for the army I'm playing easy to jump to with minimum of about 3 finger presses, and no scrolling or searching.

4) Have all of the rules and battle tomes and warscrolls updated dynamically any time an FAQ or new rule changes anything. Additionally, easy access to the FAQ within the index search for the battletome and rules sets from #1 and #2 above.

Right now, to my knowledge, the digital books are basically just a PDF that I have to scroll through, just like if I was flipping pages in a book, except unlike with a real book I can't put book marks or turn the corners of the pages and just flip straight to the section I want. And I can't take out all the warscroll cards for the units I'm using before a game and have them all within quick reach while I'm playing.

It needs to be easy and convenient and extremely fast. If they can do that, I'd pay just about any monthly price for it. Until then, no thanks, I'll stick with physical books.

 

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6 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

@Mark Williams I wouldn't want it to happen because I despise rules bloat, but Hammers of Sigmar having their own special supplement is definitely within the realm of possibility and would be a trivially easy way for GW to spell a bunch of books. The only thing that might stop it is the sheer volume of negativity surrounding 40k's marine supplements.

@OkayestDM Hopefully the Sacrosanct Chamber opening doesn't signal how they intend to release new lines in the future, with all the focus being on just the new miniatures while all the old warscrolls continue to collect dust. Sacrosanct having their own basic infantry "Liberator, only better" model is... worrying.

im still pissed about how they nerfed sequitors and evocators.  for no reason. and havent taken it back

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Yeah I agree about the need to move the rules to an all encompassing electronic system. The rule dissemination is so inefficient and haphazard,  I gotta buy my army codex, malign sorcery, GHB, etc just to play the damn game.  and the never-ending faq’s, for example, evocators can know a spell from invigoration yet the warscroll isn’t updated to reflect that. 

SCE may be in a weak place right now but hey, this is ultimately a game involving a strong elements of chance, so we should still be able to do work if we play right and the dice gods favor us! Just gotta roll hot fire 🔥 😏. But regardless, it’s an opportunity to learn to have fun and be gracious even when we lose with SCE.  Easier said than done for sure.  I’ve always felt it’s an uphill battle to win with SCE, we have limited bodies, and no summoning, in a game that’s dominated by having bodies on objectives... 

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2 hours ago, Joeyj001 said:

SCE may be in a weak place right now but hey, this is ultimately a game involving a strong elements of chance, so we should still be able to do work if we play right and the dice gods favor us! Just gotta roll hot fire

That's prob why sc seem more impacted than other armies (who are in the same boat, all boards read the same really):

Elite armies roll fewer dice 

 

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6 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I'll move to electronic when the navigation system of the rules gets to the point that I can:

1) Go to an index of the main rules set, and quickly jump to any section I want without scrolling or searching.

2) Go to an index of the battle tome for the arm I'm playing, and quickly jump to any section I want without scrolling or searching.

3) Create an army list and have all of the warscrolls for the army I'm playing easy to jump to with minimum of about 3 finger presses, and no scrolling or searching.

4) Have all of the rules and battle tomes and warscrolls updated dynamically any time an FAQ or new rule changes anything. Additionally, easy access to the FAQ within the index search for the battletome and rules sets from #1 and #2 above.

Right now, to my knowledge, the digital books are basically just a PDF that I have to scroll through, just like if I was flipping pages in a book, except unlike with a real book I can't put book marks or turn the corners of the pages and just flip straight to the section I want. And I can't take out all the warscroll cards for the units I'm using before a game and have them all within quick reach while I'm playing.

It needs to be easy and convenient and extremely fast. If they can do that, I'd pay just about any monthly price for it. Until then, no thanks, I'll stick with physical books.

 

Those are solid points (and the reason i still stick to print for 40k, which i play a bit more competitively). I use the standard ebook versions for AoS and they work ok. Depending on the reader you use you can bookmark, too. The original index marks are usable, the warscrolls are the worst part, as they are indicated by what's on top of the respective page, not every warscroll being listed. It's once you have to jump between several files, it gets finnickey.

However the printed versions seem to be outdated two weeks after release and you have to carry 5 (outdated) books per game.

I've heard good things about the improved versions for apple stuff, i'm just not rich enough to support the hobby and that stuff :P

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I definitely enjoy the convenience of digital rules and support apps when done right - and I have several of them for the sake of convenience - but I've always preferred hard copies myself. 

Yes, they can go out of date quickly, but if I read the erratas once or twice, I'm usually good to remember them.

I don't like relying on tech for my hobbies and games for several reasons, though the primary one is that a computer issue or dropping/loosing my phone could deprive me of my gaming tools.

If I drop a book, I just pick it up again. Maybe dust it off.

 

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17 hours ago, jhamslam said:

fair point

 

btw thanks for your advice on anvilstrike, i really appreciate it, and wouldnt have had a hope with SCE if it werent for it.

Glad to hear it

I should give props to @Requizen since we worked on the list for a long time on this forum. His innovation of transitioning from Aetherstrike into 2.0 by bringing a block of Evocators was a major break-through.

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At least for now, I believe GW should align themselves with some sort of consensus to support players that both BUY books and subscribe to digital apps. For example, when I list-build in Azyr and I am the legal owner of a faction's battletome, I should be offered some sort of discount and allowance to use the e-version of the same book in the app. The double-dipping is unbecoming if you ask me.

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On 2/7/2020 at 8:06 AM, PJetski said:

Glad to hear it

I should give props to @Requizen since we worked on the list for a long time on this forum. His innovation of transitioning from Aetherstrike into 2.0 by bringing a block of Evocators was a major break-through.

And now that I'm playing Bonesplitterz for a while, I'm kicking myself for helping popularize it haha, I really don't want to see my old list across the table from me :P 

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55 minutes ago, Requizen said:

And now that I'm playing Bonesplitterz for a while, I'm kicking myself for helping popularize it haha, I really don't want to see my old list across the table from me :P 

I wouldnt call it popular. I expected to see more of it at LVO, i was the only one. People dont like playing SCE , those that do still go for a mix sequitors, evos, ballistas, or like 6 longstrikes +  6 hurricanes or something

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6 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

I wouldnt call it popular. I expected to see more of it at LVO, i was the only one. People dont like playing SCE , those that do still go for a mix sequitors, evos, ballistas, or like 6 longstrikes +  6 hurricanes or something

Well, it's gotten quite popular in my area haha. I think between the group here that play it, it's at least well known enough to be planned for.  I still think it's a fun list!

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On 2/7/2020 at 9:00 PM, snipersyn said:

At least for now, I believe GW should align themselves with some sort of consensus to support players that both BUY books and subscribe to digital apps. For example, when I list-build in Azyr and I am the legal owner of a faction's battletome, I should be offered some sort of discount and allowance to use the e-version of the same book in the app. The double-dipping is unbecoming if you ask me.

GW's model for battletome/codex print/digital is decades old compared to competitors. We're all still mostly using print books, carrying a book that has 2 pages of what we need to reference (spells and allegiance stuff), 70 pages of narrative, 10 pages of painting, and 10 pages of warscrolls that area easier to access on the app or with cards. 

I like print books but I'd rather take a tablet with a useful app to a game. AoS Reminders, developed by one person, is better than GW's whole digital offering. That's crazy.

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hi all, anyone has tried including 2 gunhaulers as allies? they seem to bring a lot in their warscroll and I am thinking they might be interesting with their mobility to threaten the whole board + a little shooting as bonus

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59 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

hi all, anyone has tried including 2 gunhaulers as allies? they seem to bring a lot in their warscroll and I am thinking they might be interesting with their mobility to threaten the whole board + a little shooting as bonus

ive considered it, theyre tough maneauvrable, not a bad choice as far as sce allies go. Problem is 2 isnt quite that optimal, we re far better off with our own shooters.

When i consider allies, im mainly considering heroes / more spellcasters. or bodies for chaff/ objective control

 

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2 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

ive considered it, theyre tough maneauvrable, not a bad choice as far as sce allies go. Problem is 2 isnt quite that optimal, we re far better off with our own shooters.

When i consider allies, im mainly considering heroes / more spellcasters. or bodies for chaff/ objective control

 

Ok, I don't think I can really argue with you considering your recent results :D so, from the shooting angle I agree 100%, it's the mobility (+ the relative sturdiness) that I find interesting.

Following on your alternative, the other option I am considering would be 2x 10 shadow warriors for threatening objectives.

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2 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Ok, I don't think I can really argue with you considering your recent results :D so, from the shooting angle I agree 100%, it's the mobility (+ the relative sturdiness) that I find interesting.

Following on your alternative, the other option I am considering would be 2x 10 shadow warriors for threatening objectives.

hey dont be like that :)  we all start somewhere with an idea.  i was just as much a noob and wouldnt have made it this far were it not for the people in this sub sharing their experiences.
I think its worth a shot , if you have a friend with KO stuff, try it.

Ive also considered shadow warriors in a ballista evocator list, gonna try it out soon

Edited by jhamslam
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Just now, jhamslam said:

hey dont be like that :)  we all start somewhere with an idea.  i was just as much a noob and wouldnt have made it this far were it not for the people in this sub sharing their experiences.
I think its worth a shot , if you have a friend with KO stuff, try it.

Ive also considered shadow warriors in a ballista evocator list, gonna try it out soon

Oh, sure I'll try both as soon as I can get my hands on the models -truth is, I would also like to paint some KO ship with stormcast-y colors so I'm trying to find a good excuse to get them :)

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Definetely worth trying.

Funnily I am currently playing with my SW color scheme , as soon as I have 20 done they will die for sigmar  :)

20200210_182318210_iOS.jpg

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