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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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Just now, xking said:

I looked it up again, you right.  

It's still cold comfort though, to be honest... 120 for that and his single-use whatever. That's it. He's awful in combat, but he's supposed to be an elite combat Knight and a paragon among his peers.

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Posted (edited)

Hi guys. I want to start warhammer aos and for my first army I decided to choose the stormcast ethernals. First question, are they competitive right now ? Second question which is the most competitive stormcast list at the moment ?

Thanks a lot

Edited by Ghiggio

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On the topic of SCE rules, if you haven't seen it yet you should check out my thread about a Stormcast Battletome revamp project:

 

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42 minutes ago, Ghiggio said:

Hi guys. I want to start warhammer aos and for my first army I decided to choose the stormcast ethernals. First question, are they competitive right now ? Second question which is the most competitive stormcast list at the moment ?

Thanks a lot

If you read back a few pages in this very thread you will probably be able to answer that question for yourself lol

If you can't be bothered the answers are:
1) No

2) Shootcast ie take a max-sized missile unit like longstrikes and use the CA of Anvil Strike to doubleshoot them (there are a number of good list ideas scattered throughout here but I can't imagine any of them will win you a tournament - SCE seem to be one of the weakest books in the game right now.)

If being competitive is what matters to you there are many better choices.

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16 hours ago, PJetski said:

So with the recent FAQ clarifying Longstrike range in the hero phase, I wanted to re-open the discussion we had a long time ago about 9x Longstrikes vs 20x Judicators in Anvilstrike.

Longstrikes Pros:

  • Rend-2 and mortal wounds make focused fire more reliable
  • ~9% more damage on average vs 4+, ~25% more damage vs 3+
  • Aetherwing control
  • Longer stationary range, dont have to commit to any engagements
  • Mortal Wounds against enemies that charge you?
  • Smaller footprint than 20 Juds

Judicator Pros:

  • Battleline, effectively saving you 100 points on Liberator tax
  • Way more wounds, 40 instead of 18. Special weapons are the last to be removed.
  • Fairly similar damage, but it can spike way higher because of Shockbolt bows
  • Can take anti-horde Thunderbolt Crossbows instead of Shockbolt bows (though they are only 18" range)
  • Roughly the same damage vs 5+ saves, ~20% more damage against 6+ saves

The biggest downside I can see is that Judicators cant control aetherwings, you would have to bring some Hurricanes if you want them... but maybe we dont need aetherwings... maybe we can run a unit of 6x Desolators to act as an anvil instead?

Can you make Anvilstrike work like this:

Incantor
Azyros
Heraldor
Relictor
Castellant
2x5 Liberators
1x20 Judicators
1x6 Desolator
2000/2000

This list is much stronger against shooting and mortal wounds, but I'm worried that without the Aetherwings we won't be able to stop mega fast double tap fight first armies. Furthermore, I like having those units of Aetherwings and Liberators for objective control.

What do you think?

 

I like the idea, but you either need Aetherwings or a true screen unit. Too many things can walk across the board and charge on turn 1 no problem. Especially with how high drop this army is, the chances of getting ripped to shreds by a KoS or Stonehorn or Eindrinrigger or whatever charge before they shoot is too high. I saw a marked increase in my win % when I switched from 1 unit of Aetherwings to 3 units - they're that good.

Honestly it's made me consider that perhaps it's not even the shooting that's strong, but the Birds themselves. Vanguard Justicar can help with drops while still bringing the Birds and shooting, even outside of Anvils multishot. Charge denial is so insanely powerful in a game so reliant on melee damage and mobility in general. Turning off Charges is effectively reducing movement for many units, when they're trying to charge onto an objective or into a better position. 

34 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

If you read back a few pages in this very thread you will probably be able to answer that question for yourself lol

If you can't be bothered the answers are:
1) No

2) Shootcast ie take a max-sized missile unit like longstrikes and use the CA of Anvil Strike to doubleshoot them (there are a number of good list ideas scattered throughout here but I can't imagine any of them will win you a tournament - SCE seem to be one of the weakest books in the game right now.)

If being competitive is what matters to you there are many better choices.

Shootcast is competitive. I think the issue is that it's a bit boring and hasn't changed much since 2017 when Aetherstrike Force was first worked on. Various Shootcast lists can easily go 4-1 at an event or even 5-0 depending on draws, and is one of the things many factions fear facing in the meta. I'm getting bored of it since I played Aetherstrike into Anvilstrike for over 2 years and the other 80% of the book is non-competitive. Reasonable external balance, low internal balance. 

At this point they should just revert Sequitors, Evocators, Gavriel, Ballistas, and the Castellant to previous values. The Gav Bomb list isn't even that scary compared to Slaanesh, FEC, or Skaven.

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22 minutes ago, Requizen said:

At this point they should just revert Sequitors, Evocators, Gavriel, Ballistas, and the Castellant to previous values. The Gav Bomb list isn't even that scary compared to Slaanesh, FEC, or Skaven.

I was honestly surprised they raised the values when they did.  Seemed like really bad timing.  SCE wasn't exactly dominating at the time.  And they were releasing comparative nonsense in the new books.

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3 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

I was honestly surprised they raised the values when they did.  Seemed like really bad timing.  SCE wasn't exactly dominating at the time.  And they were releasing comparative nonsense in the new books.

It's due to production and printing schedule. Those books are written many months before they hit the printer, so it's not like they can pivot and fix values as event results make imbalances known. 

GW doesn't want to go to constantly-updated digital points because they're afraid it'll put a burden on the average player to keep up (tournament players being the minority in their minds, whether true or not). For better or worse, the point values are going to be ~6 months behind the current meta for the forseeable future.

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Posted (edited)

Time will tell, but Anvilstrike lists might become even less competitive in the near future.

I recall a number of tournaments allowing longstrikes to shoot at 30" during hero phase, before the lastest SCE errata.

Now that Longstrikes' range during hero phase is officially confirmed to be 24", prioritising target has become even more difficult. And  this might have repercussions for the performance of SCE.

Good players will keep their valuable units more than 24" away from Longstrikes, if not 30". And Longstrikes will find hard time focusing their firepower on desirable target, being forced to split their firepower for at least a turn. And loss of focused shooting for even a brief moment is devastating to expensive and fragile Longstrikes. One turn of inefficient shooting can cost a SCE player an entire game. And there is only so much a few unit of aetherwings can achieve, as opponents can easily dispatch them even with minimal shooting and spells. 

Longstrikes were already an easy prey to enemy shooting, and the difficulty of devastating high priority target in a single turn only exacerbates the issue. Mortek Crawlers were already tough for Longstrikes to deal with, while even a single missed save against Crawler's ranged attack mean 2.5 Longstrikes are easily gone. Orruk arrow boyz always threatened Longstrikes with their sheer volume of fire, even when Aetherstrike Force was present in former SCE battletome. And once Celestial Hurricanum enters within its 18" threat range, 3d3 mortal wounds decimates Longstrikes. At this point, I am not sure whether or not SCE can be dubbed as "shootcast" anymore.

Granted, Evocators on Dracolines received hefty points cost reduction. However, they still face these issues in competitive games: opponents bring either units that are cheaper AND more mobile AND more powerful, or bring units that are cheaper AND more durable(be it better save or greater number of wounds per model). The former group include Morsarr Guard and Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs, while latter include Skullcrushers, Demigryph Knights, Mournfangs and Gore Gruntas. Evocators on Dracolines struggled to keep aforementioned enemy units in check before, and after the errata it is only slightly less difficult. The fundamental problem still remains unsolved. 

Edited by Sagittarii Orientalis
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Posted (edited)

I’m thinking of just shelving mine, I played my girlfriends Nighthaunt last weekend, and even it outperformed our book. I really hope we get a fixed book and not just “oh here’s a new chamber open! Enjoy it til we nerf the hell out of it because the vocal minority’s Facebook whining!”. I swear if enough of us got on their Facebook and said something maybe they’d listen. 

Edited by OIF4IDVET
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48 minutes ago, OIF4IDVET said:

I’m thinking of just shelving mine, I played my girlfriends Nighthaunt last weekend, and even it outperformed our book. I really hope we get a fixed book and not just “oh here’s a new chamber open! Enjoy it til we here the hell out of it because the vocal minority’s Facebook whining!”. I swear if enough of us got on their Facebook and said something maybe they’d listen. 

Stormcast was my main army (followed by seraphon and khorne...so yeah...).  The amount that GW has messed up SCE has really hurt my hobby motivation

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48 minutes ago, chord said:

Stormcast was my main army (followed by seraphon and khorne...so yeah...).  The amount that GW has messed up SCE has really hurt my hobby motivation

Hate to agree and I can't tell if it's because I'm reading more about playing than hobbying/painting itself, but I'm about to return the Vanguard SC box my girlfriend bought me to wait on Hysh aelves :/ I know I've got my own painting-block hill to get over, but the dread feeling that I won't enjoy Stormcast if I ever play again makes that block a bit heavier itself.

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1 hour ago, chord said:

Stormcast was my main army (followed by seraphon and khorne...so yeah...).  The amount that GW has messed up SCE has really hurt my hobby motivation

I feel this. I LOVE my Stormcast models, love the lore, but my gosh GW has just dicked them over in terms of gameplay. 

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24 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

I feel this. I LOVE my Stormcast models, love the lore, but my gosh GW has just dicked them over in terms of gameplay. 

The lore was/is awesome!!   I want to know more about Azyr itself, etc.   Love the models, the idea of good guys fighting back evil was what drew me to them.   

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Posted (edited)

lets all go flood the games workshop  facebook page! a righteous deluge of comments  on our book. As long as we don't just go in and rage and present valid points they will at least be read lol. 

Edited by OIF4IDVET
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Do you think that a list with celestant prime and celestant on stardrake is good ?

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5 minutes ago, Ghiggio said:

Do you think that a list with celestant prime and celestant on stardrake is good ?

They are not considered competitive for the points they cost. But they are awesome models to see all painted up.

Competitive would start with a Lord Relictor for teleporting purposes, and a max unit of Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes.

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6 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

They are not considered competitive for the points they cost. But they are awesome models to see all painted up.

Competitive would start with a Lord Relictor for teleporting purposes, and a max unit of Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes.

I disagree, the sheer potential MW output is incredible. You might struggle to obtain and conserve objectives though due to the lack of models but every list depending on synergies between 5/6 wounds heroes will hate you when you remove their heroes T1.

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17 minutes ago, Ghiggio said:

Do you think that a list with celestant prime and celestant on stardrake is good ?

Have a look at @Turragor's starcast list

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2 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I disagree, the sheer potential MW output is incredible. You might struggle to obtain and conserve objectives though due to the lack of models but every list depending on synergies between 5/6 wounds heroes will hate you when you remove their heroes T1.

I still don't get this "potential" (although the list might work due to its sheer surprise effect): for 840 points you get an average of 2 MW to 2 units (drake) and 2 MW in 3 inches (prime) in each of your turns. So on average you won't be removing any of those 5/6 wounds heroes in T1. This feels underwhelming for such an investment -but I am happy to be convinced otherwise as I own and love both models :D

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I still don't get this "potential" (although the list might work due to its sheer surprise effect): for 840 points you get an average of 2 MW to 2 units (drake) and 2 MW in 3 inches (prime) in each of your turns. So on average you won't be removing any of those 5/6 wounds heroes in T1. This feels underwhelming for such an investment -but I am happy to be convinced otherwise as I own and love both models :D

3 Drakesworn templars : 3x D6 units on the battlefield affected by D3 MW. If you're very lucky 9 MW to a unit/model.

1 Stardrake, 1 Drakesworn, 1 Celestant Prime : 2x D6 units affected by D3MW + D3MW in a D6" which you can change to what accomodates you. Stardrake with Staunch defender + castellant is very resilient.

I think it's really violent. People will say that longstrikes are more realiable, but you can also totally fail your MW output with longstrikes if you're not lucky.

Edited by Maturin

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27 minutes ago, Ghiggio said:

Do you think that a list with celestant prime and celestant on stardrake is good ?

Good enough to win games with for sure! The Stardrake just got a nice point decrease too, so I'd give him a shot if you feel like painting one.

You as a player are the main factor when it comes to winning games. A good list helps, but doesn't carry you to victory if your opponent plays better (or the dice decide to go meh too much). Stuff like tier lists and tournament stats have no influence on you untill you master multiple armies and compete succesfully in 40+ man tournaments regularly.

The most important thing when it comes to picking an army is how you like their playstyle/vibe/models/whatever that makes you excited about them. It's a lot of work building painting and learning to play the game, so make sure you have fun doing so 😁

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20 minutes ago, Maturin said:

3 Drakesworn templars : 3x D6 units on the battlefield affected by D3 MW. If you're very lucky 9 MW to a unit/model.

1 Stardrake, 1 Drakesworn, 1 Celestant Prime : 2x D6 units affected by D3MW + D3MW in a D6" which you can change to what accomodates you. Stardrake with Staunch defender + castellant is very resilient.

I think it's really violent. People will say that longstrikes are more realiable, but you can also totally fail your MW output with longstrikes if you're not lucky.

Right, I see, thanks for the added explanation.

With a second/third drake you are sitting at around 1200/1300 points to do on average 6-8 MW per turn. If we are counting lucky scenarios, we can as well drop 4 ballistas from the sky with an ordinator and an azyros, and those will still dish on average 7-13 wounds T1 to 3+ save heros with lookout sir  for a mere 680 points (which in comparison with the drakes, would leave points for 9 longstrikes on top). Of course if you need MW for specific reasons or to ignore LoS that's a different matter.

So yeah, I don't know. I admit I've never gone so all-in with the drakes (only ever fieldeded one LCoSD + castellant) so I am definitely not saying that the list cannot work.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Right, I see, thanks for the added explanation.

With a second/third drake you are sitting at around 1200/1300 points to do on average 6-8 MW per turn. If we are counting lucky scenarios, we can as well drop 4 ballistas from the sky with an ordinator and an azyros, and those will still dish on average 7-13 wounds T1 to 3+ save heros with lookout sir  for a mere 680 points (which in comparison with the drakes, would leave points for 9 longstrikes on top). Of course if you need MW for specific reasons or to ignore LoS that's a different matter.

So yeah, I don't know. I admit I've never gone so all-in with the drakes (only ever fieldeded one LCoSD + castellant) so I am definitely not saying that the list cannot work.

On paper you are right, on the board the way the drakes (sometimes prime, though he usually dies) can be played in other ways in comparison to the ballista are the key.

You're eating 6 models per combat phase (12 per turn - until the drakes drop wounds) which really messes with units with either high saves + ward saves, or high hit debuffs.

They are durable (each in their own way - one being ethereal, the other being the traditional "unkillable drake") which messes with other armies.

They are mobile - 12" move is some of the best SC has to offer. A lot of other lists we have don't move at all after the initial deploy.

The prime has a toolkit that compliments this kind of list in that you choose a roll each turn - either the range or the mw output of the comet on your "shooting focused" turns, and usually a combat hit or save roll on the enemy's turn/a combat assassin focused turn.

For me the Starcast list wins more than it loses (luck, scenarios and matchups all factored in I have it at 12 wins 6 losses over several tournaments).  It's better (for me) than any other SC list I've taken. That's before the 100pt reduction in the Drake and Templar (a surprising amount of potential opens up with that discount).

For me for now, this is the definitive Starcast list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Celestant-Prime (340)
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Lord-Exorcist (120)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 86

 

The option is there to drop the heraldor and upgrade exorcist (rather terrible scroll) to incantor then take 10 skinks. But for long range,  unavoidable MW output this list is unmatched - certainly for SC and perhaps in the meta as a whole. It's even somewhat of a counter to other long range, MW output lists. I've beaten tournament Hallowheart lists twice for example. I've also beat the 9 Stormfiend Skaven list (before the Dec 19 nerf).

In some games, if the dice are against you, you won't shift the support heroes you want to. In others you'll remove support heroes and key 10 wound + enemy pieces together with shocking (lol) battleshock damage to units.

Spoiler - current Tzeentch will eat this list for breakfast, new Tzeentch even more so quite likely - but you can't win em all! :P

Basically, I'm not saying this is the best list we have, and it is unforgiving and hard to get to grips with... but it's not something to be immediately discounted (in my experience) as a loopy, wildcard list.

Full dets are in the Honest Wargamer rundowns I've done (and more discussion or playtesting results are welcome in the Starcast thread).

Happy New Year all :)

Edited by Turragor
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Ive played this list from above a lot just without the lord castellant.  Most games ive killed the whole army of my opponent. Even facing skaven. But most ive lost on objectives. After a game or 10 i got bored of the list. None of my opponents really enjoyed the matchup against double stardrake.  Not because its strong but the starfall mechanic is kind of boring to play against.  Brought it to 2 tournaments but there also people didnt have fun playing against it and im starting to dislike lists around mechanics like starfall, slaanesh locus etc. 

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