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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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On a serious note, what do fellow players think Stormcast's forte is? 

 

As of now, I would not hesitate to call Stormcast generic battleline(liberators and judicators) as worthless. Liberators, possibly the only generic battleline ever taken in competitive games, have neither hitting power nor defensive merits. In terms of the former, there are plenty of factions with amazing close combat capabilities. Daughters of Khaine, Idoneth Deepkin, Cities of Sigmar, Mawtribes, Orruk Warclans, to name but a few. In terms of defensive stats, liberators have neither good saves and/or "ignore wounds on ~+" abilities nor they bring additional bodies through low points per wound. Liberators are only taken because Judicators are overpriced for their ranged damage output.

 

Sequitors are much better than aforementioned units, but still pale in comparison to battlelines of other factions. Idoneth Deepkin have Morsarr Guard, Mawtribes Stonehorns, flesh eater court their terrorgheists and so on. The existence of counter-intuitive and out-of-date "re-roll failed save rolls" means Sequitors are still very vulerable to attacks with rend. Not to mention mortals wounds and abilities that activate at the start of opponents'  combat phase literally melt Sequitors like butter.

 

For non-battleline units, Sacrosanct units bar Castigators are decent but still pale comparison to what many other factions can bring. Evocators on foot are expensive, slow, and still melt when they get charged by dedicated enemy melee unit. Using screens have limits because Stormcasts can bring so few bodies without the inclusion of allies. Even then, basic Stormcast units are too costly to include sufficient amount of expendable screens. Mounted Evocators are even more expensive, prone to even non-rend shooting(damage 5 ossiarch catapults for example), and are still vulnerable to "Always Strike First" abilities. Ballistas require serious investment and it is almost mandatory to deploy them dangerously close to the enemy units to maximise their potentials. Even then, their number of attacks are too random to rely on.

 

As for non-Sacrosanct units, I think none are worth mentioning except longstrikes, aetherwings and desolators. The desolators belong to an exception only because other Extremis units are either comparatively overpriced. For the magic, artefacts, behemoths......Let me say the only time I would take Stormcast artefact is when I need to pick a specific stormhost to unlock command abilities. And I only take two Stormcast wizards, lord-arcanum and knight-incantor,  to bring battleline Sequitors and auto-unbind ability, not because of the spells. The only useful spell I see is one of the Evocators' spells that allows me to re-roll charge rolls. Stardrakes are too expensive for either their abysmal close combat effectiveness, random meteor attacks, and small bonus to casting rolls. It is durable when kitted properly, but that's it. If there is but a single clanrat or gobbo standing next to the Stardrake, it cannot even claim objectives. As for non-behemoth heroes, when was the last time you took lord-celestants, knight-venator, lord-exorcist,  lord-veritant, knight-questor?

 

But surely, the Scions of the Storm gives great manoeuvrability, shouldn't it? Well, I would rather prefer command abilities or spells that allow extra movements rather than an allegiance ability that cannot be combined with spells or other abilities activated before the end of movement phase. And if we look closer, there are surprisingly large number of armies who could put powerful units as reserves or teleport them to other part of the board. Idoneth Deepkin, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, Skaven, Orruk Warclans, and even Seraphon without their 2.0 battletome. Scions of the Storm is also one of only two allegiance abilities that are outright denied in a specific mission, Total Commitment.

 

I might be too pessimistic regarding the current status of Stormcast, but I can think of only seraphon, nighthaunt and kharadron as factions that perform worse than Stormcast in terms of tournament win rate if we consult AoS stats compile by Honest Wargamer. Two of which do not have 2.0 battletome, and one of which earned its battletome at the same time Stormcast battletome was released. I can only think of Anvils of Heldenhammer Longstrikes as the only remarkably strong element in the battletome. And even then it struggles to achieve 5-0 or even 4-1 constantly in multiple tournaments as far as I know. Do we need a revamp on our battletome? Or are there missing gems in our book?

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4 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

On a serious note, what do fellow players think Stormcast's forte is? 

 

As of now, I would not hesitate to call Stormcast generic battleline(liberators and judicators) as worthless. Liberators, possibly the only generic battleline ever taken in competitive games, have neither hitting power nor defensive merits. In terms of the former, there are plenty of factions with amazing close combat capabilities. Daughters of Khaine, Idoneth Deepkin, Cities of Sigmar, Mawtribes, Orruk Warclans, to name but a few. In terms of defensive stats, liberators have neither good saves and/or "ignore wounds on ~+" abilities nor they bring additional bodies through low points per wound. Liberators are only taken because Judicators are overpriced for their ranged damage output.

 

Sequitors are much better than aforementioned units, but still pale in comparison to battlelines of other factions. Idoneth Deepkin have Morsarr Guard, Mawtribes Stonehorns, flesh eater court their terrorgheists and so on. The existence of counter-intuitive and out-of-date "re-roll failed save rolls" means Sequitors are still very vulerable to attacks with rend. Not to mention mortals wounds and abilities that activate at the start of opponents'  combat phase literally melt Sequitors like butter.

 

For non-battleline units, Sacrosanct units bar Castigators are decent but still pale comparison to what many other factions can bring. Evocators on foot are expensive, slow, and still melt when they get charged by dedicated enemy melee unit. Using screens have limits because Stormcasts can bring so few bodies without the inclusion of allies. Even then, basic Stormcast units are too costly to include sufficient amount of expendable screens. Mounted Evocators are even more expensive, prone to even non-rend shooting(damage 5 ossiarch catapults for example), and are still vulnerable to "Always Strike First" abilities. Ballistas require serious investment and it is almost mandatory to deploy them dangerously close to the enemy units to maximise their potentials. Even then, their number of attacks are too random to rely on.

 

As for non-Sacrosanct units, I think none are worth mentioning except longstrikes, aetherwings and desolators. The desolators belong to an exception only because other Extremis units are either comparatively overpriced. For the magic, artefacts, behemoths......Let me say the only time I would take Stormcast artefact is when I need to pick a specific stormhost to unlock command abilities. And I only take two Stormcast wizards, lord-arcanum and knight-incantor,  to bring battleline Sequitors and auto-unbind ability, not because of the spells. The only useful spell I see is one of the Evocators' spells that allows me to re-roll charge rolls. Stardrakes are too expensive for either their abysmal close combat effectiveness, random meteor attacks, and small bonus to casting rolls. It is durable when kitted properly, but that's it. If there is but a single clanrat or gobbo standing next to the Stardrake, it cannot even claim objectives. As for non-behemoth heroes, when was the last time you took lord-celestants, knight-venator, lord-exorcist,  lord-veritant, knight-questor?

 

But surely, the Scions of the Storm gives great manoeuvrability, shouldn't it? Well, I would rather prefer command abilities or spells that allow extra movements rather than an allegiance ability that cannot be combined with spells or other abilities activated before the end of movement phase. And if we look closer, there are surprisingly large number of armies who could put powerful units as reserves or teleport them to other part of the board. Idoneth Deepkin, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, Skaven, Orruk Warclans, and even Seraphon without their 2.0 battletome. Scions of the Storm is also one of only two allegiance abilities that are outright denied in a specific mission, Total Commitment.

 

I might be too pessimistic regarding the current status of Stormcast, but I can think of only seraphon, nighthaunt and kharadron as factions that perform worse than Stormcast in terms of tournament win rate if we consult AoS stats compile by Honest Wargamer. Two of which do not have 2.0 battletome, and one of which earned its battletome at the same time Stormcast battletome was released. I can only think of Anvils of Heldenhammer Longstrikes as the only remarkably strong element in the battletome. And even then it struggles to achieve 5-0 or even 4-1 constantly in multiple tournaments as far as I know. Do we need a revamp on our battletome? Or are there missing gems in our book?

LIberators and Judicators are standalone totally fine.

The problems is that they have no discount on low number (20) and no sinergy wth the army.

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1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:

LIberators and Judicators are standalone totally fine.

The problems is that they have no discount on low number (20) and no sinergy wth the army.

What about liberators make them totally fine? They might be "fine" in terms of points per wound or relative durability(as represented in re-rolling save rolls of 1), when compared to other non-battleline Stormcast units. But I do not think one-eyed person in the realm of the blind suddenly becomes "fine" when compared to people with both eyes. Internal comparison has little meaning when diagnosing Stormcasts' strengths in external comparison.

Also, why would you ever want to take liberators above their minimum unit size? Because of their large base, short melee weapon range and poor offensive stats, I have rarely seen them used as anything other than cheapest screen(for Stormcast). The only time I have seen large unit of liberators was when pre-2.0 battle tome Vanguard Wing was considered to be overpowered.

As for Judicators...they are expensive, and the only saving grace of the unit, the shockbolt bow, has damage output too random. I would rather take 3.2 freeguild crossbowmen/handgunners for 1 Judicator anytime

Edited by Sagittarii Orientalis
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Hey guys, is there any goodList for 1000 points stormcast without longstrikes? Have an upcoming Event. Thought about sonething Sequitor and Evocators oriented? And List you suggest? 

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1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:

LIberators and Judicators are standalone totally fine.

The problems is that they have no discount on low number (20) and no sinergy wth the army.

They're trash. Look at what other battletomes have. Let's say COS for ex : SotW are the same cost as judicators but have more shots when immobile and can dish out MW.

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26 minutes ago, Maturin said:

They're trash. Look at what other battletomes have. Let's say COS for ex : SotW are the same cost as judicators but have more shots when immobile and can dish out MW.

Not at all. First you need prince, second they shoot at 18, save 5+, no rend. The problem is just ruling (tome rules). Cities of sigmar bline are more or less the same in terms of stats as lib and judicators.

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Just now, Raffonerd said:

Not at all. First you need prince, second they shoot at 18, save 5+, no rend. The problem is just ruling (tome rules). Cities of sigmar bline are more or less the same in terms of stats as lib and judicators.

They're really more effective. Look at the Assassin general + Shadow warriors.

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1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Hey guys, is there any goodList for 1000 points stormcast without longstrikes? Have an upcoming Event. Thought about sonething Sequitor and Evocators oriented? And List you suggest? 

Last time we won a 2v2 with SCE + Wanderers.

I suggest something like:

Evocators 10, castellant, heraldor (staunch def + gryph feather charm), 2x5 lib, 3 prosecutors javelin, cp.

Lord arcanum gryph, gavriel, 20 sequitors, 5 sequitors, cp, soulsnare shackles.

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2 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

in terms of tournament win rate if we consult AoS stats compile by Honest Wargamer

This is a terrible way to judge the state of the game. Stormcast (and Seraphon) are much better than the stats show. The stats should not be taken as objective truth - collected data is not the same thing as a fact.

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16 minutes ago, PJetski said:

This is a terrible way to judge the state of the game. Stormcast (and Seraphon) are much better than the stats show. The stats should not be taken as objective truth - collected data is not the same thing as a fact.

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

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11 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

Also, if the overall win ratio should be taken with a pinch of salt (lots of new players -like me- starting with SCE), their far-from-great performance at the top is surely a good indication of the state of the game. Either you conclude that good players do not play with SCE, or that they are not that competitive. Being new around here I am totally open to different conclusions though.

Edited by Marcvs

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9 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

If collected data from hundreds of, if not thousands of, results across multiple countries are not suitable for drawing conclusion, then what would be? 

You can't draw meaningful conclusions from an incredibly biased and small sample size like this, and you should not extrapolate the collected data to the entire game as a whole.

I'm not suggesting I have an alternative... I am just saying you should really take any conclusions from The Honest Wargamer with a HUGE grain of salt. They can be a useful data point, but their stats alone don't tell the whole picture.

I think Stormcast need a new battletome because most of our units are using 1.0 warscrolls and our allegiance abilities were already out of date when they were released, but that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting.

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The thing is, it's really hard to rate the faction and not a specific list. It's certain units and synergies that work and not the army as a whole. Take Anvils out of the SCE book and arguably top tables will see no more Stormcast. There are other lists that are viable amd fun, for sure, they just lack the consistency.

Considering the previous talk about our battleline options, they're all pretty crappy. The issue is in the base size. We will never have as many models and thus as much power in a certain space, as, say, Skaven do. We have limited access to 2" weapons on top. We don't get horde bonus, neither banners or musicians. That should be taken into account for every single model, but it isn't. And thus the hordes out there will always be more powerful and/ or better at scoring. And scoring is what wins the game in the end.

Edited by Lucur
typo

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As a relatively new player, I'm also struggling to win. We have a small 1250 point local tournament going on (one game per week), and I'm currently sitting at 0-3 being either basically destroyed or just not having enough bodies to score objectives because the other army keeps summoning stuff. I still like the SCE and I know I need to get better with it, but right now it's getting close to being autolose for me.

I mean, one of the games was in Ulgu against Khorne and then we roll the characteristic that made the maximum range of attacks or spells 18". I go first and then the other guy gets a double turn... I almost ragequitted right there. Just seating there watching how my army gets erased by Bloodthirsters is not fun.

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2 hours ago, Talas said:

erased by Bloodthirsters is not fun.

If they bring monsters in 1250 point games, you can bring 3/4 ballistas and a lord ordinator, and castle up and shoot them to pieces. Remember a game has 5 turns not only one. But in general be prepared for many more losses as long as you don't agree with your opponent on a certain level of balancing. Good side of this is , it really makes you think more about the game and it's "inner" workings then the 0815 cooky cutter rofl stomp list, and will make you a better general in the long run.

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Stormcast really struggle at lower point games due to the cost of units. Many of the buffs/synergies come from heroes and it’s hard to fit them in at lower points.

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On the subject of how Stormcast are doing in the meta, and the relationship between the Tournament stats, I think that the tournament stats are reflective of how the army is doing as a whole.

On the whole, generically speaking, Stormcast are a middling-at-best army, a 2/5 tourney army with 3/5 if you are a good general.

Then you have a handful of outliers that can do a lot better - these are what PJetski is talking about. I don't count these when discussing the faction as a whole.

Your average guy picking up the army for the first time, and having not much prior wargaming experience, is on average going to lose most of his SCE games for a long, long time, until they key into the small handful of best combos available. Some people will take longer than others to find the right combos and learn to use them.

This is what accounts for the poor tournament statistics. If you understand where they are coming from, the statistics make sense and are perfectly applicable.

Our book is mostly bad, and the base army is pretty weak. There's a few good gems amongst the plain rocks.

Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I don't like the army. I love my army and will continue playing Stormcast. I'm just being pragmatic about where we stand. Other armies have a lot more advantages than we do, and a lot of games are just simply uphill battles. I'm throwing out the handful of outlier SCE armies that are the exception. We know about those - we know they do well. I feel those should be a separate discussion.

Edited by Mark Williams
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I have just started assembling my Stormcast army after being a dedicated Chaos player for all of my game history, and then just finishing my first Destruction army with the Gitz (got one game in so far with them).  I chose to go with Vanguard Stormcast, as I built a Clan Eshin for a movement shenanigans, ninja-strike type army, but wow they were so boring and disappointing because of limited unit types, and terrible saves and bravery....so sold off Eshin.

I do think Stormcast are a definitely more of a skill army, not a point and click army (like Tyrants of Blood Khorne or Goregristle FEC).  I have over a 50% win ratio with all of my using-Chaos games, most of which are tournaments, but have NEVER won vs Stormcast.  It's been quite frustrating actually, so I hopped on the band wagon!

The Liberators are good when used in that Stormhost where a REDEEMER unit can be brought back full strength on like a 5+ after it's wiped out.  I think Sequitors are also a candidate there.  That's pretty darn strong I'd say, and Sequitors with their choice of powering up shields or weapons every turn is really good!  Liberators backed by a Lord Castellant are solid, if not boring.

Aetherwings are fun for absorbing charges by pesky enemy units that you just don't want to be in combat with that turn (like say, a Keeper of Secrets.....or three :D  )

These are things I've fought against and seen them do, so while they may not be super duper top tier all the time, they certainly seem to be able to hold their own with a good general.  I look forward to playing the Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber, which just exactly fits into 2000 points.  No wizardry at all but with a swift alpha strike and many deployment and movement options I think I could snipe out hero support early on and then bob'n'weave.

Not yet sure which Stormhost (if any) I'll go with.  Gotta review the Command Traits available; not too worried about relics as I'll be able to take 4 total with the Auxiliary Chamber super battalion.  There's the Stormhost with the CA that lets you pile in and attack, or shoot, in the hero phase.  That's a good one.  There's also that one which lets some units within 12" of the general have a pregame movement like Night Runners.  That's very useful for early objective grabbing sometimes.

I'm thinking the Knight Azyros with a Tempest Lantern is useful.  The Knight Zephyros could have the Sword of Judgement.  The Knight Venator, not sure yet, nor on the Lord Aquilor.

Can the Lord Aquilor have a Command Trait AND a Mount Trait AND a relic?

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@Lord Krungharr take the Luckstone for the Venator and yes Aquilor can have a command trait, mount trait and relic. Let me know how the full Vanguard Chamber performs? 😃 played with the same idea, but the prob was the auxiliary battalion feature affecting only “Non-Heroes”. Also 3 seperate units for the raptor hurricanes (cant squeeze in longstrike), just why GW?! Bye bye Anvils Stormhost. Invested those battalion points eventually  in a knight-incantor + meteor and IDK eels allies, also nasty 😅

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20 hours ago, PJetski said:

You can't draw meaningful conclusions from an incredibly biased and small sample size like this, and you should not extrapolate the collected data to the entire game as a whole.

I'm not suggesting I have an alternative... I am just saying you should really take any conclusions from The Honest Wargamer with a HUGE grain of salt. They can be a useful data point, but their stats alone don't tell the whole picture.

I think Stormcast need a new battletome because most of our units are using 1.0 warscrolls and our allegiance abilities were already out of date when they were released, but that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting.

It's hard to find anything meaningful in this argument, just broad and sweeping opinions masquerading as facts. "Incredibly biased and small sample size" is a great example. What about it is bias? What about their data-set do you think qualifies it as being small...which is another way of asking what you consider a robust data-set to be. The site is pretty up front with what comprises their data-set. In this case I see 55 tournaments since July, and there are multiple games recorded in each meeting. Were talking an average attendee rate of 40-50 people playing 5-6 games each. That's thousands of data points. If you think that's not an adequate sample size of games then I question your ability to make that assessment. 

Your argument of bias could hold water if you provided even a modicum of effort to actually make the case. The most basic one is sampling bias, where we only see the stats at a very competitive level for a very specific number of matches. He doesn't track stats for all the multitude of smaller tournaments that run 3 games. If you cared to make that argument, you would be correct. However, it does not mean that the conclusions one draws from THW's number are false. Saying that the conclusion is false because the argument is false is itself a fallacy called an Argument From Fallacy. Indeed, we cant actually say that in aggregate the stats for smaller tournaments is any different than the stats for larger ones.

 

"Their stats alone don't tell the whole picture". This could have been a great place to elaborate on what it is they aren't telling us. The discussion here seems to suggest that, in general, the win rate for STE is lower than people expected. This is borne out by the stats on THW where STE is in the 45% win rate grouping which is in the lower tiers compared to armies like khorne, skaven, or slaanesh. That doesn't mean its God's honest truth that STE don't win >50%, but finding multiple places all telling you the same thing lends that narrative some measure of credibility. Look outside this forum if you are afraid of an echo chamber of people complaining they don't win 100% of the time. Do you see people in the slaanesh forum complaining they don't win, that they are under powered? No, the opposite. And guess what? This is borne out in THW's stats also. Its even borne out in your third paragraph where you talk about changes they need.

Last, on the comment "that doesn't mean we can't go 5-0 in a tournament setting". Accepting the numbers posted on THW is not incompatible with this statement. They have STE in 2nd and 3rd place which means we likely have cases where STE did go 5-0 or 4-1. Its not about being able to go 5-0, its about the average case where out of 230 STE players in the data-set we only see 5 in the top 3. Compare that to 153 slaanesh players getting to the top 3 34 times. That's pretty stark and probably says more about the issues with slaanesh than any perceived issues with STE, but I don't think anyone here should take that "with a HUGE grain of salt."

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Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list. :)

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

Edited by Uffe
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On 11/29/2019 at 12:36 PM, Uffe said:

Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list. :)

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

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11 minutes ago, Bigscaryflorister said:

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

Stupid question, never use named boys... anyhoo.. aetherwings are free if you drop the msu seqs for trusty (🥺) libs! 

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10 hours ago, Bigscaryflorister said:

That’s an interesting list man! Did you run Stormhost or artefacts? Some aetherwings in there would be great, just cos 🤷‍♂️

Hammers of sigmar.
You could use Libs and take a unit of Aetherwings. I dont because i find Libs lacking. 5 Sequitors can atleast guard vs some uints.
Its not that important to guard the hurricanes since they have another role then longstrikes. They will be frontline.
A matter of taste i guess.

Edited by Uffe

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On 11/29/2019 at 8:36 PM, Uffe said:

Hey

Since i dont enjoy the longstrike list im in to Gavbombing!

Played a tourny not long ago. went 3-2, lost two tight games vs slaanesh 3 keepers and skaven stormfiends.
I made some errors since i had 0 games with SCE before.

But SCE was lots of fun so decided to take them to another tourny and try again with a similar list. :)

Lord Arcanum
Lord Castellant
Gavriel
Lord-Relictor
20 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
5 Sequitors
10 Evocators
3 Hurricane Crossbows
3 Hurricane Crossbows
Extra command point

Playstyle, deep in Hurricanes, blow up the screens so Evocators can charge what they want. Buff the Sequitors and port them in to action.
Rest of the list are for objectives 😃

Tested one game so far and it was effective, lets se how it goes.
 

My minor tweak would be switching the 5-man sequitors to liberators, and upgrading the arcanum to a gryph charger for mobility. That way u have an option for him to run up to heal / staunch defender the hurricanes as necessary. 

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