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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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Hmm couldn’t be more obvious that GW has probably a huge vanguard stock which they need to get rid of. 

Anyhow don’t need to buy anything new :) at least. 

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28 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Hmm couldn’t be more obvious that GW has probably a huge vanguard stock which they need to get rid of. 

Anyhow don’t need to buy anything new :) at least. 

Well, Vanguard (beside raptors) haven't ever been good. It makes sense for them to give them reductions as that is what they need. Plus I'm still not convinced these changes actually improve them enough.

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4 hours ago, jhamslam said:

I have to disagree here mate. Having not seen the Fyreslayer, FEC and skaven changes its too soon to judge HOW good this is.

I will say this. They have nerfed a meta from nearly half a year ago that these days is barely good enough to crack 3-2 or 2-3 at GTs (Gav or Ballista Combo). SCE is NOT a high tier army, we were fairly Tier B (or even C). All these changes do is knock those already B tier lists down a peg. It doesnt touch Anvilstrike, but honestly given these changes thats ALL that will see play now.  

Haha dude no offense but that's a serious lack of perspective. In no world is SCE a C-tier or below army, calling them high-B-tier would already be underselling Stormcast. You know how many actual B- and C-tier armies there are out there? Ones that would kill for multiple 3-2 viable lists in their book, or a single 4-1 or 5-0 potential army? We have multiple lists that are viable to podium with good play. If you're not satisfied with that... I dunno what to tell you, bud.

I want you to go to someone who tries to competitively play an actual mid/low tier army like Wanderers, Free Peoples, Ironjawz, BCR, Slaves to Darkness, Nurgle, etc and tell them that Stormcast are too weak and are clearly a mid-tier army. See if they laugh in your face or not. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Haha dude no offense but that's a serious lack of perspective. In no world is SCE a C-tier or below army, calling them high-B-tier would already be underselling Stormcast. You know how many actual B- and C-tier armies there are out there? Ones that would kill for multiple 3-2 viable lists in their book, or a single 4-1 or 5-0 potential army? We have multiple lists that are viable to podium with good play. If you're not satisfied with that... I dunno what to tell you, bud.

I want you to go to someone who tries to competitively play an actual mid/low tier army like Wanderers, Free Peoples, Ironjawz, BCR, Slaves to Darkness, Nurgle, etc and tell them that Stormcast are too weak and are clearly a mid-tier army. See if they laugh in your face or not. 

Sure but the armies you mention that would "laugh in my face" are strictly non AoS 2.0 armies, which are definitely based on a newer, stronger scale. None of those armies you mentioned stack up well to anything since the Sacrosanct Chamber really. They dont even have overhauled battletomes like the ones we ve seen this year

You dont have to take my word for it. SCE since November last year has dropped to a 48% win rate (dont quote me but its aroun there) in major GTs. In terms of power creep, we simply lack the cost effectiveness (skaven) or force multipliers (FEC , or DoK) to make us good. Goodness, the best list we had barring anvilstrike was Gav (sequitors blocks with evo support), or Triple Ballista + Thundercats or Standiferd's Stardrake. The latter wouldnt last a second against the Gristlegore spams and the former two as i have said were barely cracking 3-2 at GTs with an auto loss on Total Commitment. 

SCE is a B tier army (which may change seeing everyone switch to anvilstrike and the response to it)  the ones who cant crack a 3-2 with "index armies"  are / were pretty much C tier.

Edited by jhamslam

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Just now, jhamslam said:

Sure but the armies you mention that would "laugh in my face" are strictly non AoS 2.0 armies, which are definitely based on a newer, stronger scale. None of those armies you mentioned stack up well to anything since the Sacrosanct Chamber really. 

You dont have to take my word for it. SCE since November last year has dropped to a 48% win rate (dont quote me but its aroun there) in major GTs. In terms of power creep, we simply lack the cost effectiveness (skaven) or force multipliers (FEC , or DoK) to make us good. Goodness the best list we had barring anvilstrike was Gav, or Triple Ballista + Thundercats or Standiferd's Stardrake. The latter wouldnt last a second against the Gristlegore spams and the last two as i have said were barely cracking 3-2 at GTs with an auto loss on total commitment.

SCE is a B tier army, the ones who cant crack a 3-2 are / were pretty much C tier

Ok, ask a Gloomspite Gitz player, or a Khorne player, or a Beasts of Chaos player. They all have pretty much exactly one top competitive build and then a bunch of 2-3/3-2 builds. Ask a Nighthaunt player, who don't even have one of those, or a Nurgle player, who also don't have one. All of those are AoS 2.0 books. They'll all wish they had the abilities and variety of Stormcast. 

This is the issue with Statistics. It's easy to look at the HWG stats and go "Oh no, we're trash! Call the fire brigade, I'm going to burn my army!", but the truth of the matter is that the statistics are pretty meaningless if you don't actually think about them. Stormcast are extremely overrepresented, which burns that number down a lot. Especially compared to something like DoK, which is heavily tilted towards the side of hardcore players picking up the army, rather than masses of casual players rocking them at mid tables at big events. 

Additionally, those types of stats only tell you what the current numbers are. It says nothing about potential or variable outcomes. Sometimes, people just don't play an army. And maybe that's because the army is bad, or maybe that's just because they want to play something else. A lot of top tier players who go to events could podium just as easy with Stormcast as they are with whatever they're playing, but this isn't a video game where switching to and from the new meta is just a click away.

The sky is not falling. Take a deep breath, and focus on figuring out ways to improve rather than whinging for buffs. 

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2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Ok, ask a Gloomspite Gitz player, or a Khorne player, or a Beasts of Chaos player. They all have pretty much exactly one top competitive build and then a bunch of 2-3/3-2 builds. Ask a Nighthaunt player, who don't even have one of those, or a Nurgle player, who also don't have one. All of those are AoS 2.0 books. They'll all wish they had the abilities and variety of Stormcast. 

This is the issue with Statistics. It's easy to look at the HWG stats and go "Oh no, we're trash! Call the fire brigade, I'm going to burn my army!", but the truth of the matter is that the statistics are pretty meaningless if you don't actually think about them. Stormcast are extremely overrepresented, which burns that number down a lot. Especially compared to something like DoK, which is heavily tilted towards the side of hardcore players picking up the army, rather than masses of casual players rocking them at mid tables at big events. 

Additionally, those types of stats only tell you what the current numbers are. It says nothing about potential or variable outcomes. Sometimes, people just don't play an army. And maybe that's because the army is bad, or maybe that's just because they want to play something else. A lot of top tier players who go to events could podium just as easy with Stormcast as they are with whatever they're playing, but this isn't a video game where switching to and from the new meta is just a click away.

The sky is not falling. Take a deep breath, and focus on figuring out ways to improve rather than whinging for buffs. 

Hey maybe youre right, maybe i am overreacting. 

On a personaly level, i dont feel much of a sting, since it left my recent foray into Anvilstrike relatively untouched. Just a bit salty/ sad to lose some of our good melee options i suppose.

Thanks for the perspective, i appreciate it :)

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How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

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34 minutes ago, stus67 said:

How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

Hordes of small bases aren’t uncommon. Decimators might not be so bad at carving up the likes of rats and such.

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Did the stormcast endless spells had a point change ?

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9 hours ago, Roark said:

I was thinking the same thing. ie, something like this, but it's too hungry for command points and the magic defence is pretty sad:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Lord-Veritant (120)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura 
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Celestant (100)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Knight-Azyros (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Protectors (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
5 x Decimators (180)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Skyborne Slayers (190)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

 

Looks cool, but how would you play the army?
Im pretty new to the game (just started working on my gave list but as it sounds atm i might need to re think that)

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8 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

You can still sort of do it with Libs: Arcanum on GC, 20 Sequitors, 2x5 Libs, Incantor, Ordinator, 10 Evos and 4 Ballista comes to 2000 points exactly (suspiciously so).

Drop the Arcanum on foot and 1 Ballista gives you points for the Castellant and change for Endless Spells. Personally I’ve gone off the Castellant and like the Gryph. I’m 50-50 on 20 Sequitors and no shackles or 15 and shackles/swords.

 

Do you have any stormhost in this list?

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1 hour ago, stus67 said:

How do ya'll feel about replacing Evocators with the Paladin variants? If so which kind? I was thinking that the Protectors don't look that bad at the lower cost, but are still pretty pricey.

I haven't done math on all of them, but Retributors are still more expensive per point of expected damage done than Evocators.  IE., Evocators are a better better when only looking at damage done.

However, Evocators also have an unbind every turn, a spell every turn, they have a higher move stat, and they have 2" melee range.

I thought they were better when I was counting 2 attacks per star mace...

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Posted (edited)

Even with this point changes, retributor still get outperform by evocators, Probably another 20 drops might change the difference. Protectors, from my previous calculation, is actually not very good. It should do a lot damage against monsters, however, it actually deal less than that retributor(not considering their point difference). Decimator might be more useful, since horde army are common nowadays, however, its lowmobility require some additional help to make it deadly.

Edited by HammerOfSigmar

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31 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Even with this point changes, retributor still get outperform by evocators, Probably another 20 drops might change the difference. Protectors, from my previous calculation, is actually not very good. It should do a lot damage against monsters, however, it actually deal less than that retributor(not considering their point difference). Decimator might be more useful, since horde army are common nowadays, however, its lowmobility require some additional help to make it deadly.

Well if we do the calculation. lets say you have 10 retributors so 4 starsoul maces and 6 normal maces

Normal maces - 10 attacks - hits on 3s so avg 6 hits , - 1 rend, so on a 4+ save changed to 5+ , average 4-5 wounds for 2 damage each . Total 10 damage on average if im being generous.

Starsoul maces - Average roll is 3-4 meaning d3 mortal wounds for average 2 mortal wounds each. So 10+ 8 . On average 10 retributors will do 18 damage to something with a 4+ save.

With 10 evocators - 30 attacks with the 2'' Grandstave. 20 hits, 12-13 wounds on average. with a 4+ save on something theyre saving half so 6 go thru, total 12 damage.

Celestial lightning arc on evocators 20 dice , looking for 4+ so 10 on average. 12 + 10 = 22 damage total.

Yeah plus Evocators can cast blades on themselves to make wound rolls better and unbind spells. Its no contest really, its the sequitor / liberator problem all over again.

 

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Liberators are more useful than Sequitors though?

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2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Liberators are more useful than Sequitors though?

Well it depends on your application of the term "battleline"

Sequitors are for those who want their battleline to be the tough AND killy force in their armies with a castellant, sort of a turtle up playstyle. 

Liberators in your case are just tax and fodder to buy the longstrikes time. With sequitors up to 130 yeah i struggle to see why anyone would take em anymore. What a shame

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I originally think seqs works well in 20, for the discount. Now they are 130 so it takes serious thought when taking a unit of 5.

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As long as the meta is full of armies can fight before you can activate rerollable saves I can't see a reason to ever use Sequitors in any list. It's just giving your opponent a 440pt target to focus fire.

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1 minute ago, PJetski said:

As long as the meta is full of armies can fight before you can activate rerollable saves I can't see a reason to ever use Sequitors in any list. It's just giving your opponent a 440pt target to focus fire.

Agreed. With the prevalence of Mortal Wounds and fight first, its just very expensive fodder. I was more referring to how they were initially when they were introduced at 120, in my comparison of retributors and evos. I would totally take retributors at 180 or 170

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Yeah, I see they just don't work out according to the meta. It seems that taking more chaff units is better investment now, like mercenary  companies.

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Posted (edited)

Sean Heigh took this to a top 3 finish in Sydney. Looks like a lot of points cuts in this list and it doesnt perform too bad either. Thoughts?

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer Mortal Realm:

Ghyran

Leaders

Lord-Aquilor (200) - General - Trait: Deathly Aura - Mount Trait: Aethereal Stalker

Celestant-Prime (340)

Knight-Azyros (100) - Artefact: Soulthief

Lord-Relictor (100) Battleline

5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120) - Boltstorm Pistols and Storm Sabres

5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120) - Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes

5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120) - Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes Units

3 x Vanguard-Palladors (200) - Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes

3 x Aetherwings (50)

3 x Aetherwings (50)

9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540) Total:

1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 100

 

 

This list lost like a 100 points, could easily fit a knight incantor in there

Edited by jhamslam

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4 hours ago, FattBooM666 said:

Looks cool, but how would you play the army?
Im pretty new to the game (just started working on my gave list but as it sounds atm i might need to re think that)

Depending on the enemy shootiness and range, Azyros and Aetherwings are deployed on the field, and the Veritant and Raptors are deployed in Azyr (or in reverse), and ALL of the Skyborne Slayers in Azyr. Then air-drop Raptors and Veritant into optimal positions and ALL Skyborne Slayers basically into the enemy's face against their specific preferred enemies (with a 5" charge hopefully).

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I think the reason for disappointment is that point drops are not really enough to legitimise choices much beyond Sacrosanct, most units needed to come down another 10-20pts. The internal points balance is still of despite a golden opportunity to change it. Yes we can still be competitive but it would have been nice to have more real choice.

Also really sad about Tauralon and Stardrake.

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