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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, ChaosLord said:

Going 3-2 is losing viability? Sounds like a respectable showing. You can't expect the other tournament-level players to just roll over.

It's less about the results and more about how I got there.

I did beat DoK along the way, but it was his first event and I was simply taking advantage of his executions along with some luck. He killed my Longstrikes on Turn 2 with little to no issue, and then I only won because I made some longbomb charges with the Evos, got the Double Turn, and he messed up positioning for Knife to the Heart. Also if he was HaggNar for the extra durability, I wouldn't have done nearly as much damage.

I beat a mixed Order gunline with 40 Arkanauts, but I should have lost. I had no way to chew through that many bodies and he tabled me by the end, but I only won because I snuck past him to burn Better Part of Valor objectives and won immediately despite getting tabled the turn after. There were too many dice and bodies for me to win if it was any other mission. 

My two losses were against "meta" lists. Gristlegore and Bestigor/Enlightened Beasts of Chaos (similar to the popular Tzaangor/Enlightened Tzeentch build), and I was on the back foot every step of the way until I fell. Anvilstrike, or at least the way I run it, does not have a real answer to a uber-killy melee unit that gets into your lines on Turn 1, especially when they get the Double. If there are two such units, as there often are at the moment, it's an even more difficult ladder to climb.

I think I could have won all my games - if I made no mistakes and got all the luck I needed. Anvilstrike is very strong but so unforgiving that it can feel very frustrating to play. I don't want to insinuate that my opponents are bad players, since indeed I knew many of them and they were extremely good players, but their armies are much more straightforward and resilient to missteps.

There's plenty to be said about playing a very technical list and overcoming adversity through proper play, but it can feel very frustrating when people are receiving much better results with lists that require far less precision. Again, that isn't a knock to any of my opponents, but just a statement of the state of the army I have been playing.

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2 hours ago, Requizen said:

Went to a local 2 dayer, 3-2 with Anvilstrike. Very depressing after a good showing at Adepticon.

The meta is just so fast and killy right now that if you don't have lots of redundancy and/or disruption, the game is really on a knife's edge. Anvilstrike can probably still hang with some tweaks, and I probably could have won both of those games had my opponents not gotten the double turn... but I dunno, it always felt like I was on the back foot even in the games I won. Bestigors, Enlightened, Witch Aelves, Morathi, FEC - all can get across the board reliably on T1 unless you backline most of the army, and even then you're not safe if they get a double (and they will since they outdrop you 99% of the time). I lost my Longstrike unit in four of the games, even with Aetherwings to block. 

I'll try Anvilstrike with more bodies and shutdown - maybe trading some units for extra Aetherwings is apropos. Swapping the 10 Evocators + Heraldor for 20 Sequitors + Castellant takes a lot of teeth out, but it also gives a harder frontline that can help to soak a charge or two and still isn't too bad at hitting back. Going for a more castle approach to the list, though the damage output of 10 Evos is just nothing to scoff at. 

I was also looking at the lists I ran against and thinking about how Gav would do against it. I think the Daughters matchup wouldn't be too bad - just my own 10 man unit was able to boop of 30 Witch Aelves per charge fairly reliably (though they were Khailebron rather than Hagg-Nar), and once the bodies are down, Morathi herself isn't super terrifying. FEC and LoN are still horrid for Gav since they'll just blob out Ghouls and countercharge with monsters. BoC/Tzeentch speed melee would depend heavily on mission and positioning. 

Honestly I'm leaning towards Ignax Stardrake. There's so many horde-heavy armies in the game with a smattering of MWs. Grimghasts, Gobbos, Bestigors, Ghouls, Witch Aelves, Plague Monks - all of them bounce off him. I would go for Smouldering Helm, but Terrorgheist Maws and WLCs are still in the game, as are Endless Spells, so Ignax is probably necessary most of the time.

I still feel Shootcast should be the way we build, since it spoilers a lot of things and we're one of the few armies that can really do shooting well... it's just so flimsy due to points. Our weakness is already bodies and when someone can just chuck 90 Aelves, or 60 Bestigors, or 60 Tzaangors, or 120 Plague Monks, etc into it, without something like Sequitors to block it up it's a bit rough. Aetherwings are great but they basically stop 1 charge per unit, which is great against slower armies that you can pick off but nothing against 2+ units in your DZ at the bottom of 1. 

Maybe I'm just a bit salty at my own performance, but it just felt like the meta has shifted so hard that SCE need to refocus to deal with it. Luckily, we're an army with a dozen different possible builds and will never be out of the meta just due to variety, but it can be frustrating to see the build you've worked hard on suddenly lose viability. 

I actually have been playtesting both of your and Mr. Pjetski variants of Anvilstirke lists for quite some time and found myself completely helpless against anything that can charge turn one. And now seeing your current thoughts are just proving the point those test results shown. Basically facing anything like Bestigors, Eels, TG's are just a 90% loss. Nothing to use as a reliable screen, Evocators just pop off the board without even hitting anything, 5 man Liberators battleline fillers are a complete joke. Used all the possible combinations of deployment strats ( Board Edge, all key units in Azyr, all key units on the board etc) - this just doesn't seem to work anymore. As long as you are able to snipe the heroes with Raptors all of your troops pretty much wiped out by other stuff.

Might as well just return to generic Gav lists along with Balistar. They at least stand a chance against some lists and not that fragile to alpha strikes.

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7 minutes ago, Qrepin said:

I actually have been playtesting both of your and Mr. Pjetski variants of Anvilstirke lists for quite some time and found myself completely helpless against anything that can charge turn one. And now seeing your current thoughts are just proving the point those test results shown. Basically facing anything like Bestigors, Eels, TG's are just a 90% loss. Nothing to use as a reliable screen, Evocators just pop off the board without even hitting anything, 5 man Liberators battleline fillers are a complete joke. Used all the possible combinations of deployment strats ( Board Edge, all key units in Azyr, all key units on the board etc) - this just doesn't seem to work anymore. As long as you are able to snipe the heroes with Raptors all of your troops pretty much wiped out by other stuff.

Might as well just return to generic Gav lists along with Balistar. They at least stand a chance against some lists and not that fragile to alpha strikes.

Like I said, there's likely a solid variant after some tweaking and what not. More Aetherwings could mitigate the alpha strike issue, and a swap towards a brick unit could help as well. But Alpha lists will always be strong against this sort of thing. 

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7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Like I said, there's likely a solid variant after some tweaking and what not. More Aetherwings could mitigate the alpha strike issue, and a swap towards a brick unit could help as well. But Alpha lists will always be strong against this sort of thing. 

Completely agree. The main downside of the list right now are not even technical issues like screening. Its the major complexity of planning a right move and no room for mistakes while other competitive meta lists are just as easy as a brick ( Looking at you Gristlegore)

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@Requizen

3/5 is better than my average 2/5 at every tournament I’ve been to for the past year and a half.

 I agree with you that the meta has shifted and gotten even more competitive than ever before.

My current strategy is that Ive completely given up on melee or starting with anything valuable on the board. I’ve  split my army up into useless ****** on the board and anything remotely valuable off the board. I wait until I’m going second then drop and try to do as much damage as I can, and hope for a double turn. I HAVE to table my opponents, because I cannot hold the table or objectives at all. So every game is basically a Hail Mary, hoping for outrageous luck.

I’ve said it many times, but I believe SCE is firmly B level army at this point. There’s 2-3 viable combos: Anvilstrike, seq/evo gav bomb, and les martin drake. Everything else is a bit derivative of those lists. I flop back and forth between a variation of the first two, sometimes combined. I can’t find anything stronger. I agree with you it’s very frustrating.

 I’m going to a very large tournament this weekend. I’ll let you know how it goes. If I win 3 games, I’ll finally break my record. :)

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11 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

@Requizen

3/5 is better than my average 2/5 at every tournament I’ve been to for the past year and a half.

 I agree with you that the meta has shifted and gotten even more competitive than ever before.

My current strategy is that Ive completely given up on melee or starting with anything valuable on the board. I’ve  split my army up into useless ****** on the board and anything remotely valuable off the board. I wait until I’m going second then drop and try to do as much damage as I can, and hope for a double turn. I HAVE to table my opponents, because I cannot hold the table or objectives at all. So every game is basically a Hail Mary, hoping for outrageous luck.

I’ve said it many times, but I believe SCE is firmly B level army at this point. There’s 2-3 viable combos: Anvilstrike, seq/evo gav bomb, and les martin drake. Everything else is a bit derivative of those lists. I flop back and forth between a variation of the first two, sometimes combined. I can’t find anything stronger. I agree with you it’s very frustrating.

 I’m going to a very large tournament this weekend. I’ll let you know how it goes. If I win 3 games, I’ll finally break my record. :)

There's also the rounded TAC list: mostly Sacrosanct + some other things, mainly focusing on a 20-Sequitor Brick with Arcanum and Castellant, 3 dropping Ballistas + Ordinator, and 10-15 Evos for counterstrike. It doesn't have any really hard counters but also lacks a solid win condition.

We've also seen some success with 6+ Dracovator star units, though that can be fairly fragile to counterstrike and has little to no way to deal with Gristlegore other than trying to table the rest of the army and ignoring the ASF General. 

As for Stardrake, I don't think the Les Martin Stardrake + 2x2 Fulmis is the way to go, I'm far more interested in Stardrake + scoring bodies in Sequitors and Skinks. 

Either way, I think GHB19 will be a big shift for Stormcast, any point changes will change how we approach list building.

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1 hour ago, Requizen said:

There's also the rounded TAC list: mostly Sacrosanct + some other things, mainly focusing on a 20-Sequitor Brick with Arcanum and Castellant, 3 dropping Ballistas + Ordinator, and 10-15 Evos for counterstrike. It doesn't have any really hard counters but also lacks a solid win condition.

Yes, it's a good take-all comers list that will solidly bring home a 2/5 wins if you play it really well... As I've said  a few pages ago, this is more or less my default "friendly game" list.

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

We've also seen some success with 6+ Dracovator star units, though that can be fairly fragile to counterstrike and has little to no way to deal with Gristlegore other than trying to table the rest of the army and ignoring the ASF General. 

Yeah. Very similar to above. It does great until it gets hard countered by a better assault army. But I agree it's a good build and a viable direction for someone to go in.

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

As for Stardrake, I don't think the Les Martin Stardrake + 2x2 Fulmis is the way to go, I'm far more interested in Stardrake + scoring bodies in Sequitors and Skinks. 

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the word "Les Martin" as that's a very specific list. I was meaning more generically any list that is supporting an "unkillable" Star Drake. There's many variations of this, and certainly room for some individuality, but the key pieces to support that drake rarely change, and are pretty static across lists.

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Either way, I think GHB19 will be a big shift for Stormcast, any point changes will change how we approach list building.

Eh.... I hope that you are right. I admit that I feel like I've capped out my SCE for a while now, and I feel like I'm doing about as good as I can hope for. Every new book just brings out another thing that I can't deal with, so as time progresses I feel like I'm getting further and further behind. I'd really like a few points shifts in the next GHB, but I'd settle for some adjustments to some of the other major armies I'm having difficulties with too.

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14 hours ago, XReN said:

After all the nerfs it was 3" from enemy

You can try and figure out something with Skyborne Slayers, they still get to be set up 5" away from opponent, fill your battleline, make you ignore battleshock and you also keep the bonus from Shock and Awe - which is a new battle trait that gives your models that were set on the battlefield that turn a -1 to hit them.

Also, the lord celestant on foot was nerfed...

... except in the context of the skyborne slayers.

Before, he gave +1 to hit to units within 9". Now, it's +1 to hit to units wolly within 12" if he is in melee.

It would be ******...but now he give it in the combat phase, and not in the hero phase.

So now, the skyborne slayers (which is cheaper than before, and with all its units being better than before, especially protectors and crossbow judicators) mean that your units have +1 to hit the turn when they charge AND the ennemy have -1 to hit them during this turn as well.

It give to the skyborn a MUCH better alpha strike than before.

Also, while you don't play the paladins anymore because the evocators are straight-up better... the paladins by themselves aren't worse than before. They are still okay. And a skyborne slayers let you enough pts to fill around 500/600 pts of anything else.

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4 hours ago, Erdemo86 said:

Does someone know which colour and wash was used for that whitish robe and that „violet“?

 

For the violet - Screamer Pink, washed with Druchii violet.

For the White... I'm guessing Ulthuan Grey washed with a very watered down Nulin oil, and then dry brushed with some sort of white.

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I wouldn't bet on the GHB19, SCE are still a great beginner army which do well-ish in the normal space of games. And I kinda think GW wants them to be there.  But we will see 😆

Good thing - at least for me - I stopped caring about tournament viability , as we have no AOS tourneys here in vienna :D 

But fun fact, the guy how defended his bobo title switched to DOK list, and I remember the outcry last year where everyone was raging about OP Gav Bomb... :D Kinda says everything :)

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Well I'm gonna take this to a mates tournament. I reckon Empower rules and I'll try to cast it a lot on the artillery to rain death. I'll use command points on the Judicators to make them super reliable. There's lots of wounds to chew through as well.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Lord-Castellant (100)
- General
- Trait: Dauntless Hunters 
- Artefact: Godbeast Plate 
Lord-Ordinator (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 154
 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Requizen said:

Like I said, there's likely a solid variant after some tweaking and what not. More Aetherwings could mitigate the alpha strike issue, and a swap towards a brick unit could help as well. But Alpha lists will always be strong against this sort of thing. 

I found the 2nd unit of Aetherwings (one for each flank) and a 2nd Incantor (two dispel scrolls!) to be invaluable tools in properly locking down aggressive matchups. I don't have any problems with any alpha strike lists

In control v control matchups the 2nd Aetherwings are amazing for sneaking onto objectives.

Edited by PJetski
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17 hours ago, Requizen said:

There's also the rounded TAC list: mostly Sacrosanct + some other things, mainly focusing on a 20-Sequitor Brick with Arcanum and Castellant, 3 dropping Ballistas + Ordinator, and 10-15 Evos for counterstrike. It doesn't have any really hard counters but also lacks a solid win condition.

We've also seen some success with 6+ Dracovator star units, though that can be fairly fragile to counterstrike and has little to no way to deal with Gristlegore other than trying to table the rest of the army and ignoring the ASF General. 

As for Stardrake, I don't think the Les Martin Stardrake + 2x2 Fulmis is the way to go, I'm far more interested in Stardrake + scoring bodies in Sequitors and Skinks. 

Either way, I think GHB19 will be a big shift for Stormcast, any point changes will change how we approach list building.

I've been testing the following

Anvils of the heldenhammer:

Arcanum

Heraldor

Castellant

20 sequitors

5 sequitors

5 sequitors

6 longstrikes

6 evos on dracolines 

shackles

So far I've found it very effective, I was not a ballista fan so I incorporated some more reliable shooting.  Its pretty much about tying up the midfield with the sequitors and then counter charging with the dracolines as well as shooting some key items.  I'll keep testing but I had a good game against deepkin eel spam last week.  

Edited by jake3991
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8 hours ago, schwabbele said:

I wouldn't bet on the GHB19, SCE are still a great beginner army which do well-ish in the normal space of games. And I kinda think GW wants them to be there.  But we will see 😆

Good thing - at least for me - I stopped caring about tournament viability , as we have no AOS tourneys here in vienna :D 

But fun fact, the guy how defended his bobo title switched to DOK list, and I remember the outcry last year where everyone was raging about OP Gav Bomb... :D Kinda says everything :)

The stormcast nerfs are due to a very loud minority who just hate the stormcast, which sadly GW listened to

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19 hours ago, Requizen said:

There's also the rounded TAC list: mostly Sacrosanct + some other things, mainly focusing on a 20-Sequitor Brick with Arcanum and Castellant, 3 dropping Ballistas + Ordinator, and 10-15 Evos for counterstrike. It doesn't have any really hard counters but also lacks a solid win condition.

We've also seen some success with 6+ Dracovator star units, though that can be fairly fragile to counterstrike and has little to no way to deal with Gristlegore other than trying to table the rest of the army and ignoring the ASF General. 

As for Stardrake, I don't think the Les Martin Stardrake + 2x2 Fulmis is the way to go, I'm far more interested in Stardrake + scoring bodies in Sequitors and Skinks. 

Either way, I think GHB19 will be a big shift for Stormcast, any point changes will change how we approach list building.

Our points cost and lack of bodies really makes me mad sometimes. like wtf is GW thinking. a 10 man sequitor squad with 20 wounds costs 240 while a plague monk 40 rat brick costs the same.

When this game started out,horde armies were weak to battleshock and elite armies were weak to mw .

But now NO horde armies take battleshock, it basically isnt a thing anymore. Beasts of chaos? Herdstone that ******. 

Rats? Oh just take the auto include bell, no battleshock for you

Witch Aelves? have a 60 point hag queen

Gitz? Have a free moon terrain piece.

Meanwhile Mortal Wounds are becoming more and more common, everything and their mother gets mortal wounds now on charges, on 6s what have you and the best we can do against it is a 6 up with Hammers of Sigmar in a 9 inch bubble.

Honestly idk if writing to GW helps, but it will be so disappointing to see evocators get an increase. All because of some loud weirdos who are ok with every other overpowered thing in the game (cough cough skaven gristlegore) but hate seeing sce for some reason.

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1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

Our points cost and lack of bodies really makes me mad sometimes. like wtf is GW thinking. a 10 man sequitor squad with 20 wounds costs 240 while a plague monk 40 rat brick costs the same.

When this game started out,horde armies were weak to battleshock and elite armies were weak to mw .

But now NO horde armies take battleshock, it basically isnt a thing anymore. Beasts of chaos? Herdstone that ******. 

Rats? Oh just take the auto include bell, no battleshock for you

Witch Aelves? have a 60 point hag queen

Gitz? Have a free moon terrain piece.

Meanwhile Mortal Wounds are becoming more and more common, everything and their mother gets mortal wounds now on charges, on 6s what have you and the best we can do against it is a 6 up with Hammers of Sigmar in a 9 inch bubble.

Honestly idk if writing to GW helps, but it will be so disappointing to see evocators get an increase. All because of some loud weirdos who are ok with every other overpowered thing in the game (cough cough skaven gristlegore) but hate seeing sce for some reason.

Could not agree more, I for one wish GW used open source statistics to motivate their balancing (honest wargamer). It's tough to justify tweaking an army if they don't have a win rate far and away better than the rest or have a mechanic that is not interactive to play against.

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The grass isn't actually greener. The herdstone battleshock immunity almost never comes into effect because BOC are far more aggressive and the aura doesn't grow fast enough to keep up with that. Screaming Bell is a 200 point battleshock immunity aura - warpseers are far better at giving the same effect.

You cant look at what every army does better and then ignore the unique abilities that Stormcast have - the ballista drop, Evocators both on foot and on Dracoline, double tap Longstrikes, the game-breaking mobility of Aetherwings, and on-demand teleporting are all amazing tools.

I'm not a fan of the newest battletome because it has failed to make 90% of the units worthwhile, but Stormcast are still a very powerful army... easily one of the strongest in the game.

Stop looking at the global win rates (the sample size is too small and biased to draw objective conclusions) and start looking at what you can do to improve your own win rate.

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19 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The grass isn't actually greener. The herdstone battleshock immunity almost never comes into effect because BOC are far more aggressive and the aura doesn't grow fast enough to keep up with that. Screaming Bell is a 200 point battleshock immunity aura - warpseers are far better at giving the same effect.

You cant look at what every army does better and then ignore the unique abilities that Stormcast have - the ballista drop, Evocators both on foot and on Dracoline, double tap Longstrikes, the game-breaking mobility of Aetherwings, and on-demand teleporting are all amazing tools.

I'm not a fan of the newest battletome because it has failed to make 90% of the units worthwhile, but Stormcast are still a very powerful army... easily one of the strongest in the game.

Stop looking at the global win rates (the sample size is too small and biased to draw objective conclusions) and start looking at what you can do to improve your own win rate.

Mate i respect your opinion a lot on here, but youre missing the point here. Our points costs and lack of bodies is generally hurting us. I played with my friends' skaven and FEC lists these past few weeks. In general death and chaos dont interest me much, but man its like playing on point and click easy mode. Most lists dont stand a chance.  40 man plague monk units for 240 and a plague bell that is basically a mini GUO that makes them auto pass battleshock AND gives them a 6+ fnp for 180 is just wtf? Slaanesh seems to have been designed to counter gristlegore but then it has its own mw spam at every phase.

Id say Order got a bit of a break with the Hearthguard Berzerkers but im not even gonna go into how powerful those are. If we could get protection against MW the way THAT  army does we'd be set.

GW has given the meta these overtuned armies that dish out mortal wounds like candy with their elites (stormfiends, warpcannons, vortex, AGKoTG) and still have tons of chaff for objectives and screening + mopping up. Evocators are brilliant yes but it hardly matters if we have to sacrifice 10 man liberator / sequitor squads while everyone else brings twice the numbers at that point level.  The non interactivity of these new rules, (Savage strike or the new slaanesh) means that its mostly a race instead of a battle where players play out their overtuned rules hoping to reach the finish line first. Having the most versatile tools of any army is of no use if those tools arent appropriately costed, since it basically just means most armies will outlast us through sheer numbers of models and dice if nothing else, so its a very specific meta making the rounds here.

 

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Low body count is a weakness but I have never found it to be a game-losing hindrance.  I don't waste time trying to compete with somebody about cramming more bodies onto the same objective. With Ballistas/Longstrikes Stormcast have the power to wipe units off objectives from half the board away and then leisurely walk on them - after 2 rounds of that kind of shooting the enemy has been crippled to the point that you can have a squad of 10 Evocators walk through the enemy army without taking a casualty.

Why are you sacrificing 10 Liberators if you can get the same effect on the state of the battle from sacrificing 5? Why run Sequitors if they die the same as Liberators but cost you more points?

Plague Monks are cheap but they're also slow and die in droves - once you kill their source of battleshock immunity they run away just as easily as they die. You shouldn't be engaging them directly in any kind of prolonged combat. Ideally you can shoot them off the table, so you don't suffer any of the mortal wounds from their deaths in combat, but if that's not an option you need to kill them on the charge. This unit should not be a problem unless you run a melee focused list with little shooting, and I don't think that has ever been a viable way to play Stormcast.

Stormcast are a very strong army but the power of the faction is not as obvious as "run forward and hit stuff" like most other armies in the game.

Edited by PJetski
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1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

  40 man plague monk units for 240 and a plague bell that is basically a mini GUO that makes them auto pass battleshock AND gives them a 6+ fnp for 180 is just wtf? Slaanesh seems to have been designed to counter gristlegore but then it has its own mw spam at every phase.

 

 

If you want to cry, compare the screaming bell/plague bell with a lord celestant on dracoth who cost 220 pts

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