AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Marzillius]

What is it that makes the AGoTG so good? I'm a bit out of the loop.

[Twh30]

8 hours ago, ledha said:

I fought a FEC army based on 3  AGoTG , and one OVERKILLED 10 sequitors and a tauralon with bad rolls, while the other, not buffed, killed 10 sequitors without problem.

Sure, they weren't under castellant + staunch but they still annihilated them with 0 difficulty (and one did 18 mortal wounds AFTER killing them)

A big unit of castigators in a soulstrike brotherhood could deal with them plus 1 attack -2 rend also plus 1 to hit if in astral templers

[Karragon]

8 hours ago, Marzillius said:

What is it that makes the AGoTG so good? I'm a bit out of the loop.

Assuming they are in the Gristgore Grand Court (stormhost equivalent) the AGoTG general will be:

• Attacking before combat starts
• Then attacking again before combat starts
• The 3 attack maw does a flat 6 MWs on a unmodified 6 to hit (and is -2 rend, D6 dmg for normal hits)
• Mount trait lets him reroll maw hits
• 6's to hit generate an extra hit (so on the maw that's 6MWs and a normal hit)
• Can be buffed with a spell that gives him potentially 3 extra attacks on all his profiles (so a 6 attack maw)

[Marzillius]

1 hour ago, Karragon said:

Assuming they are in the Gristgore Grand Court (stormhost equivalent) the AGoTG general will be:

• Attacking before combat starts
• Then attacking again before combat starts
• The 3 attack maw does a flat 6 MWs on a unmodified 6 to hit (and is -2 rend, D6 dmg for normal hits)
• Mount trait lets him reroll maw hits
• 6's to hit generate an extra hit (so on the maw that's 6MWs and a normal hit)
• Can be buffed with a spell that gives him potentially 3 extra attacks on all his profiles (so a 6 attack maw)

That's absolutely disgusting. I guess every Flesh-Eaters army runs this? What do we do against it? My only idea is a Ballista drop, because that thing seems basically unbeatable in combat.

[Nos]

10 hours ago, ledha said:

I fought a FEC army based on 3  AGoTG , and one OVERKILLED 10 sequitors and a tauralon with bad rolls, while the other, not buffed, killed 10 sequitors without problem.

Sure, they weren't under castellant + staunch but they still annihilated them with 0 difficulty (and one did 18 mortal wounds AFTER killing them)

An extra 2 to armour save is massive though, it’s not just an incidental detail. Not disagreeing that AGK is nuts but that’s hardly an indication of the value of Sequitors. Most things die to AGK. Sequitors still stand up against an awful lot of nasty stuff very well. 

The only thing I think needs changing with Sacrosanct is something to limit Evocators on Foot MW output. I like the idea of the chain lightening but I think just having one dude within 3” causing up to 40 MW’s is silly.

Was thinking something like “ Roll +4 for MW per model. For every 5 models in the unit you can roll 2 dice per model”. That means if you keep them all alive it’s still a devastating power burst but if you take 20 and lose 2 you’re rolling 33 dice rather than 40. Still a lot but it means you have to be more thoughtful about keeping them whole and utilising them as Shock Troops.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[Benkei]

How are you getting one Evo to do 40 MWs with their lightning? Max would be 2

 

Edit: nevermind, I suppose you are advocating for having to have every Evo within 3" of another unit to be able to roll dice for MW

Edited March 1, 2019 by Benkei

[Karragon]

40 MWs from a max size unit of 20...but who runs 20 of them? That's 800 points in a single, very fragile unit.

Personally I don't think Evo's need changing at all. They're high damage yes, but then they should be for 40 points a model. They're slow though and they drop like flies. I ran 10 of them on foot at Sheffield Slaughter, for Heat 1 I've swapped them for 20 more sequitors. I certainly don't think they are an "auto-include" like the afore mentioned AGKoTG

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Benkei said:

How are you getting one Evo to do 40 MWs with their lightning? Max would be 2

 

Edit: nevermind, I suppose you are advocating for having to have every Evo within 3" of another unit to be able to roll dice for MW

Because the MW output is calculated on the basis of unit size, and the distance from the unit, not the no of Evocators fighting. Hell they don’t even need to fight the unit they electrocute, just be within 3” of it after fighting something. Plus it’s not a combat phase ability, just “each time this unit attacks” so if you take them as Anvils and Pile-in you get to do the lightening then as well, unless that has been FAQ’d.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[Nos]

34 minutes ago, Karragon said:

40 MWs from a max size unit of 20...but who runs 20 of them? That's 800 points in a single, very fragile unit.

Personally I don't think Evo's need changing at all. They're high damage yes, but then they should be for 40 points a model. They're slow though and they drop like flies. I ran 10 of them on foot at Sheffield Slaughter, for Heat 1 I've swapped them for 20 more sequitors. I certainly don't think they are an "auto-include" like the afore mentioned AGKoTG

Precisely why people tend to Scion them in. Minus 1 to hit on that turn plus re-rolling 1’s to save anyway, then a 9” charge which there are various means to facilitate. If you get them into melee with any target so long as they get to swing first they’ll obliterate pretty much anything.

And as above you don’t even need to get many into combat. With some thought If you form up in such a way as to only let a few in combat with their potential 2” reach and 40mm bases you can restrict how many enemies can get into contact while still being able to gurantee firing off dozens of MW’s.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[Karragon]

3 minutes ago, Nos said:

Precisely why people tend to Scion them in. Minus 1 to hit on that turn plus re-rolling 1’s to save anyway, then a 9” charge which there are various means to facilitate. If you get them into anything so long as they get to swing first they’ll obliterate pretty much anything.

They're only rerolling 1 to save against shooting. And you sort of missed my point. You get a one good round with them then they either die or are too far from the action to do anything useful

[Nos]

30 minutes ago, Karragon said:

They're only rerolling 1 to save against shooting. And you sort of missed my point. You get a one good round with them then they either die or are too far from the action to do anything useful

In referencing them dropping in the re-rolls was meant to be implicit in respect to shooting, they’re not going to be in combat to re-roll if they have to drop 9” away from anything. And once in combat  If they fight first they’re unlikely to have to save against much.

A heraldor or A Relictor is a cheap investment to move them around quickly if you drop them alongside. A Vexillor can do it once per battle from anywhere.

Obviously It’s a situational thing but there’s no disputing that in a situation where a massive shock strike is required they can provide it and then some without much thought required.

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[HammerOfSigmar]

20 evo in one unit is not very efficient in my opinion. The unit is so big that you can hardly place the models such that most of the model in that unit can attack. For the MW part, an average of 20 MW is kind of overkill for most situation since you need to put them in one unit.

[Requizen]

10 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

20 evo in one unit is not very efficient in my opinion. The unit is so big that you can hardly place the models such that most of the model in that unit can attack. For the MW part, an average of 20 MW is kind of overkill for most situation since you need to put them in one unit.

It's efficient with Gav, where you get in, murderize one unit with melee, and tag a second, smaller unit to zap with MWs. Without the charge bonus, getting that setup is way too situational.

[Nos]

13 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

20 evo in one unit is not very efficient in my opinion. The unit is so big that you can hardly place the models such that most of the model in that unit can attack. For the MW part, an average of 20 MW is kind of overkill for most situation since you need to put them in one unit.

If 20 MW is overkill on its own then how does it matter that you can’t get them in to attack?

Basically this is why I suggested the change I did. Evocators don’t even have to fight as a unit to do serious damage. One figure has to be able to fight and then they get a bucketful of MW’s to anything within 3” whether they fought it or not. It’s antithetical to most of the mechanics that govern combat that you can have a unit that just hangs around and destroys entire units without even fighting.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[PJetski]

I agree with @Karragon here - Evocators get one round of combat then die to the counterattack.

Competent players will put their important units >3" away from the frontline so they can't be tagged with Celestial Lightning Arc, then on their turn you lose your 800 point deathstar unit to the counterattack. A turn 1 charge just ensures you make it to melee with all 20 models still alive, but it doesn't change the inevitable riposte. It's also not a great strategy with any units that can mess with your charge/combat positioning like Aetherwings or Skinks.

20 Evocators is too many points to spend on that kind of strategy; 20 MW is almost always overkill after 60 Grandstaff attacks and you could get by with 10 models just fine.

I think you need to bring something else alongside your Evocators, so if/when your opponent wipes out (or denies them) you have a secondary threat.  Either Ballista (AT) or Longstrikes/Judicators (Anvils) work just fine.

[Nos]

I never actually field more than 10, don’t even have more than 10, and they’ve dropped out of favour to my 6 Dracoline.

But the original argument was that they aren’t all that good because they die easy and are immobile, hence why I discussed the damage they do when dropped in instead, ways in which you can make them mobile, and why I think being able to dish out tens of MW’s to something you’re not fighting is cheesey and needs a small rework in my opinion.

At no point did I say they were amazing, or terrible, or whatever. It was a nuanced  and deliberated argument I put forward. They are situationally incredibly powerful. They are also situationally difficult to get a return from. The extent to which these are true varies on the calibre of your opponent obviously. 

I used to be very much of the opinion that they were easy to screen against and a unit of 20 was too big in fact. But    I have since reconsidered that opinion.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Nos

[Requizen]

Foot Evos would be bad if we didn't have Gav or shooting. A slow melee unit that has to walk 5" across the table is terrible. But, since we can either insta-charge them from Reserves or force the opponent to approach with our gunline, they're actually quite strong.

From a numbers/rules perspective, once they're in they are pretty busted. The jazz hands is pretty hard to deal with as the game goes on, especially as you run out of screening units. My 10 kill more than their points worth in every game unless I ****** up, though I'm thinking of dropping the 5 man unit since it often doesn't pay dividends.

[ledha]

The only issue with the MW for the evocators is that it happen after they attack, meaning the opponent can't do anything about that, and it become even more stupid in anvils of heldenhammer.

Making it happen at the end of the combat phase (like the kurnoth hunter Mortal Wound ability), and everything is fine. Evocators will still do damage, but won't be able to wreck the ****** of one unit then annihilating another before your opponent start to retaliate.

Edited March 1, 2019 by ledha

[The World Tree]

13 minutes ago, ledha said:

The only issue with the MW for the evocators is that it happen after they attack, meaning the opponent can't do anything about that, and it become even more stupid in anvils of heldenhammer.

Making it happen at the end of the combat phase (like the kurnoth hunter Mortal Wound ability), and everything is fine. Evocators will still do damage, but won't be able to wreck the ****** of one unit then annihilating another before your opponent start to retaliate.

Either that or you have to choose who to target before rolling for the normal attacks would make sense. It is too much 'having your cake and eat it'. If they were part of the same attack step, it would at least force decisions to be made.

[AngryPomeranian]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:42 AM, Nos said:

What were you up against?

120 stabas (2 blobs of 60)  , 1 fungoid (with -1 save artefact), 1 shaman and boss that gives mortal wounds to the squad. 

[Requizen]

2 hours ago, AngryPomeranian said:

120 stabas (2 blobs of 60)  , 1 fungoid (with -1 save artefact), 1 shaman and boss that gives mortal wounds to the squad. 

What were you running? There's plenty of Stormcast lists that'll smash all over that, and others that will roll over to it. 

Also 1000 points can be really screwy, the game isn't quite balanced around it the same way it's balanced around 2000.

[AngryPomeranian]

18 minutes ago, Requizen said:

What were you running? There's plenty of Stormcast lists that'll smash all over that, and others that will roll over to it. 

Also 1000 points can be really screwy, the game isn't quite balanced around it the same way it's balanced around 2000.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Artefact: Soulthief 
Lord-Castellant (100)

Battleline
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers

Units
5 x Evocators (200)
5 x Evocators (200)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 15
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93
 

He he also had Sneaky Snufflers, LOONSMASHA and SPORESPLATTA fanatics. We played shyish and he casted -1 to hit (-2 in total!) and ingnore rend on 1 of 2 big squads.

Edited March 1, 2019 by AngryPomeranian

[Requizen]

Just now, AngryPomeranian said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- Artefact: Soulthief 
Lord-Castellant (100)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers

Units
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Evocators (200)
5 x Evocators (200)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 15
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93

He he also had Sneaky Snufflers, LOONSMASHA and SPORESPLATTA fanatics. We played shyish and he casted -1 to hit (-2 in total!) and ingnore rend on 1 of 2 big squads.

Gotcha. In general, your list should do fine against it but you're not particularly favored. Gitz are really good at messing with melee through things like Fanatics, debuffs, and Netters, so you're not going to kill units that fast, but you'll survive a lot longer thanks to the blob + Castellant.

Getting to the Heroes and killing them is how you beat armies like this. You can try to early kill them with Evocators dropping in with Scions, but that's risky. I would recommend getting a shooting unit or two in there, or some sort of ranged spell damage. If you can kill the Loonboss then the big blobs lose the MWs, so they're not as scary in combat. If you kill the Wizards, they can't buff as well. 

Removing one unit of Evocators lets you swap your Libs for Judicators and take a unit of Vanguard Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows. Alternatively, you could take a unit of Judicators and an Everblaze Comet, which will do really good work against his small Hero models.

[AngryPomeranian]

5 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Gotcha. In general, your list should do fine against it but you're not particularly favored. Gitz are really good at messing with melee through things like Fanatics, debuffs, and Netters, so you're not going to kill units that fast, but you'll survive a lot longer thanks to the blob + Castellant.

Getting to the Heroes and killing them is how you beat armies like this. You can try to early kill them with Evocators dropping in with Scions, but that's risky. I would recommend getting a shooting unit or two in there, or some sort of ranged spell damage. If you can kill the Loonboss then the big blobs lose the MWs, so they're not as scary in combat. If you kill the Wizards, they can't buff as well. 

Removing one unit of Evocators lets you swap your Libs for Judicators and take a unit of Vanguard Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows. Alternatively, you could take a unit of Judicators and an Everblaze Comet, which will do really good work against his small Hero models.

Thx for feedback!I'll test this list tommorow.

[CareBear]

Hey, I am a pretty fresh stormcast player (my first year). And I would really appreciate any help on coming up with a good 750 pts list for a campaign. It is possible to add to the warband later too. I have listed what I own down below. Any advice on a list, and possibly what I could add to that list later would be highly appreciated. 

Heroes: Lord-Celestant (both on foot, dracoth and stardrake), Knight Azyros,  Lord Ordinator, Knight Vexiollor, Lord Castellant, two Lord Relictors, Lord Arcanum on GC, two knight incantors, two Lord Excorsists, Celestant Prime, Gavriel Sureheart and a Lord Aquilor.

 

Battleline: 30 liberators,  10 judicators, 5 vanguard hunters and 25 sequitors.

Units: 20 evocators, 3 vanguard palladors, 6 of each type of prosecutors, 3 vanguard raptors, 5 castigators, 5 protectors (2 starsoul), 3 aetherwings, 5 gryph hound, 5 retributors (2 starsoul). 

Warmachines: 3 ballistas

Endless spells: Comet, Celestian Vortex and the disc.

As you may have guessed, I am pretty broke now. So I am kind of limited on the buying front.

I am grateful for any advice 

Edited March 2, 2019 by CareBear