AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Nos]

20 hours ago, stato said:

How often do people get 'Empower' off onto a large unit of Sequitors (20)? 

Played first games with Stormcast at the weekend and couldnt manage my positioning to keep the unit 'wholly' within the Evocators, without significantly reducing the effectiveness of either or both units.  Not having a lot of units on the board i didnt feel i could just leave the Evocators babysitting the Sequitors to try and cast Empower (and hope it wasnt dispelled).

Routinley on groups of 10. 20 is a very big footprint to net though.

[Requizen]

Where's that shooting efficiency chart at? I want to do some theorycrafting and can't remember what page it's on.

[Kevin K]

8 hours ago, Synidus said:

I used to use 3 hunters as battleline, but I'm swapping them for liberators because hunters like the holding power and even lethality. Even the mobility they have and the shots they put out really didn't make much difference to my games. I might keep 1 unit, possibly to hurricane them across the board to capture a far off objective. I'm really hoping the liberators and their special weapons will do some work.

Someone pointed out that if I can actually charge something with my evocators and heraldor, either i'm really lucky or my opponent made a mistake, because you can always calculate the evocators' threat range. I'll try this out first. But if not, i'll swap the comet for a heraldor.

As for using 2 units of 3 Palladors, I can tell you they're really disappointing. When there's only 3, you can really feel the lack of punch they put out, and they also feel more fragile. 

Perhaps i just don't know how to play disruption 😅

I totally understand about Hunters but Liberators aren't much different in groups of 5.  I only use Liberators when I need the extra points.  Sequitors at the same 120 are probably much better, I just don't have any built right now. 

I agree with the units of 3 Pallodors but what I'm finding is that even with 6 they don't hit hard at all.  As Celestial Vindicators they can become a bit of a hammer but without the extra attack and reroll they are only an annoyance.  They can probably do that job just as well in a unit of 3 and then I can have 2 annoyances.  That very much changes the army though and at that point I might drop the Aquilor.

[PJetski]

21 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Where's that shooting efficiency chart at? I want to do some theorycrafting and can't remember what page it's on.

 

[Nos]

Palladors are one of the few units I don’t own/haven’t played with but they feel like the sort of unit to hold one objective then jump and cap any that are free with Winds Aetheric as the battle goes on. I wouldn’t feel comfortable charging them into anything really that wasn’t a lone hero or something. Obviously they could also serve as Zephryos delivery system but that feels incredibly situational.

Having said that I’m sure that playing predominantly Vanguard you’ll get the odd game where everything is zipping and feinting and ambushing and paper cutting the opponent to pieces and it feels amazing. I intend to have a purely Vanguard quotient up to 1.5 k precisely to play like that every now and again. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Nos

[Requizen]

25 minutes ago, PJetski said:

 

Thanks!

Just a note: it looks like your Prosecutor numbers are a smidge off (should be .88 wounds for the Prime, doesn't take into account Trident Rend), the Longstrikes don't seem to take into account the MWs on 6s (shifts the numbers a bit, especially against high Armor values), and it looks like you calculated for the Rend-2 on the Castigators, but it would be interesting to also have a row for the Reroll 1s (shifts the numbers for lower armor values). Obviously a bit hard to automate in Excel but worth noting.

I've been musing a lot recently on the differences between our shooting units, so obviously the numbers are good to have offhand. I'm trying to figure out what a true shooting army would look like, and it's become quite obvious that each of our shooting units has a very distinct role, and it's hard to say any one is strictly better than another, though it doesn't look good for Castigators or Prosecutors in any case.

Building a true shooting army is actually fairly hard. We don't seem to have the numbers to wipe units, especially hordes, with any sort of efficiency. Both varieties of Crossbows are pretty good at it, but also quite short ranged and fairly expensive. Ballistas seem best at dealing with small/midsized units, while Longstrikes are clearly the best at Hero hunting (small Heroes they crush, big monsters with Anvils). Bow Judicators actually strike me as odd - despite them being so popular, their strength mainly seems to come from their range and generalist nature. They don't really put out an insane amount of value for their points, but they're pretty solid at sitting back on objectives and still contributing to the fight. 

I'm still sure there's a shooting-focused list in here, and I think it'll be necessary in the coming months between FEC, Skaven, and the new Khorne book (terrified to see what buffs they give Bloodthirsters).

[Twh30]

33 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Thanks!

Just a note: it looks like your Prosecutor numbers are a smidge off (should be .88 wounds for the Prime, doesn't take into account Trident Rend), the Longstrikes don't seem to take into account the MWs on 6s (shifts the numbers a bit, especially against high Armor values), and it looks like you calculated for the Rend-2 on the Castigators, but it would be interesting to also have a row for the Reroll 1s (shifts the numbers for lower armor values). Obviously a bit hard to automate in Excel but worth noting.

I've been musing a lot recently on the differences between our shooting units, so obviously the numbers are good to have offhand. I'm trying to figure out what a true shooting army would look like, and it's become quite obvious that each of our shooting units has a very distinct role, and it's hard to say any one is strictly better than another, though it doesn't look good for Castigators or Prosecutors in any case.

Building a true shooting army is actually fairly hard. We don't seem to have the numbers to wipe units, especially hordes, with any sort of efficiency. Both varieties of Crossbows are pretty good at it, but also quite short ranged and fairly expensive. Ballistas seem best at dealing with small/midsized units, while Longstrikes are clearly the best at Hero hunting (small Heroes they crush, big monsters with Anvils). Bow Judicators actually strike me as odd - despite them being so popular, their strength mainly seems to come from their range and generalist nature. They don't really put out an insane amount of value for their points, but they're pretty solid at sitting back on objectives and still contributing to the fight. 

I'm still sure there's a shooting-focused list in here, and I think it'll be necessary in the coming months between FEC, Skaven, and the new Khorne book (terrified to see what buffs they give Bloodthirsters).

I’m also interested to see how an mostly shooting list would look. When I have the models will be running the list we spoke about the other day and seeing how that develops 

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Twh30 said:

I’m also interested to see how an mostly shooting list would look. When I have the models will be running the list we spoke about the other day and seeing how that develops 

Here's what I'm starting with:

Arcanum - General, Staunch, Azyrite Halo
Castellant - Lantern of the Tempest
Ordinator
Incantor - Thundershock

20 Sequitors
5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - Bows

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

3 Hurricane Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

Geminids

2000/2000

You get 3 types of shooting, can work at a long range (Judis, Ballistas to an extent, Geminids) or up close (Hurricanes, Ballistas). 14 drops is a lot, of course, but that gives you 7 units up top, which will usually be Ballista x3/Ordi/Hurricanes x2/Aetherwings (or can leave one one Ballista on the table if you want more anti-charge). 

To get down on drops, maybe something like:

Lord Celestant on Dracoth - General, Staunch, Ignax's Scales, Keen Clawed
Lord Relictor - Translocation
Knight Incantor - Thundershock, Mindlock Staff

5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - XBows

6 Longstrike Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
10 Skinks
10 Skinks

Shackles

Vanguard Justicar Conclave

1990/2000

9 Drops is still not low, but better. Still 14 drops, so Hurricanes, XBows, and Birds up high. Longstrikes and Judis should be able to drop Heroes pretty reliably, while the XBows clear out units. Not sure on the Heroes - you don't particularly need the regular buffing heroes like Castellant or Heraldor, though an Azyros might not be amiss. I kind of like the Dracoth Celestant as a mini-combat piece. He's not clearing units by himself, but he's enough of a counter-charge threat to make them think twice, and he can move quick to clean up the last couple models after the bombardment. 

Edit: you could potentially make that second list Templars, give the Relictor the chump artifact and the Dracoth Ethereal Amulet - makes it better against Monsters but worse defensively. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Requizen

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, Requizen said:

Thanks!

Just a note: it looks like your Prosecutor numbers are a smidge off (should be .88 wounds for the Prime, doesn't take into account Trident Rend), the Longstrikes don't seem to take into account the MWs on 6s (shifts the numbers a bit, especially against high Armor values), and it looks like you calculated for the Rend-2 on the Castigators, but it would be interesting to also have a row for the Reroll 1s (shifts the numbers for lower armor values). Obviously a bit hard to automate in Excel but worth noting.

Prosecutors weren't being modelled properly. 2 attacks with trident at 2 damage should result in 1.78 damage on average (before rend).  Ill attach the updated version. The value in the "Total" space is without rend. Prosecutors are a pretty efficient shooting option.

I updated Longstrikes to account for the mortal wounds.

I added Castigators with reroll hit1, but it's generally worse than the Rend-2 option... it's a very minor accuracy boost but there are other sources of rrh1. 

Let me know if you have any other feedback

 

As for shooting lists, have you looked at the Shadowhammer Compact battalion from Daughters of Khaine? It's 20 Judicators + 20 Heartrenders both shooting twice per turn

Edited February 26, 2019 by PJetski

[Twh30]

16 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Here's what I'm starting with:

Arcanum - General, Staunch, Azyrite Halo
Castellant - Lantern of the Tempest
Ordinator
Incantor - Thundershock

20 Sequitors
5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - Bows

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

3 Hurricane Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

Geminids

2000/2000

You get 3 types of shooting, can work at a long range (Judis, Ballistas to an extent, Geminids) or up close (Hurricanes, Ballistas). 14 drops is a lot, of course, but that gives you 7 units up top, which will usually be Ballista x3/Ordi/Hurricanes x2/Aetherwings (or can leave one one Ballista on the table if you want more anti-charge). 

To get down on drops, maybe something like:

Lord Celestant on Dracoth - General, Staunch, Ignax's Scales, Keen Clawed
Lord Relictor - Translocation
Knight Incantor - Thundershock, Mindlock Staff

5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - Bows
5 Judis - XBows

6 Longstrike Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
3 Hurricane Raptors
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
10 Skinks
10 Skinks

Shackles

Vanguard Justicar Conclave

1990/2000

9 Drops is still not low, but better. Still 14 drops, so Hurricanes, XBows, and Birds up high. Longstrikes and Judis should be able to drop Heroes pretty reliably, while the XBows clear out units. Not sure on the Heroes - you don't particularly need the regular buffing heroes like Castellant or Heraldor, though an Azyros might not be amiss. I kind of like the Dracoth Celestant as a mini-combat piece. He's not clearing units by himself, but he's enough of a counter-charge threat to make them think twice, and he can move quick to clean up the last couple models after the bombardment. 

Edit: you could potentially make that second list Templars, give the Relictor the chump artifact and the Dracoth Ethereal Amulet - makes it better against Monsters but worse defensively. 

Both look interesting . I do think there is a lot of list out there to use . That fact could benefit us all as people can’t get used to a single stormcast list. Was thinking lacking numbers on second list but skinks really help with that 

[Requizen]

7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Prosecutors weren't being modelled properly. 2 attacks with trident at 2 damage should result in 1.78 damage on average (before rend).  Ill attach the updated version. The value in the "Total" space is without rend. Prosecutors are a pretty efficient shooting option.

I updated Longstrikes to account for the mortal wounds.

I added Castigators with reroll hit1, but it's generally worse than the Rend-2 option... it's a very minor accuracy boost but there are other sources of rrh1. 

Let me know if you have any other feedback

 

Looks good on the Castigators and Prosecutors. I keep expecting Castigators to be better in general (relatively cheap Rend-2 is nothing to scoff at), but man they just kinda underperform, don't they?

Prosecutors actually seem pretty reasonable. Maybe there's something to Vanguard Wing as a shooting list after all, 3 of them + a larger sized unit of Judis could put out some honest ranged damage and keep drops down. Worth testing.

Crunching numbers on the Longstrikes, they're just off a bit, looks like it's not calculating the 2 MWs from 6s correctly. Should be 3.33/3.78/4.22/4.66/4.66/4.66, unless I'm crunching numbers wrong (2.67 * save + 2MW).

[Requizen]

7 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Both look interesting . I do think there is a lot of list out there to use . That fact could benefit us all as people can’t get used to a single stormcast list. Was thinking lacking numbers on second list but skinks really help with that 

Yeah when in doubt, Skinks are often the answer. We do pretty much everything else quite well, but Skinks can give that little extra oomph when it comes to zoning and scoring.

[Twh30]

14 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Yeah when in doubt, Skinks are often the answer. We do pretty much everything else quite well, but Skinks can give that little extra oomph when it comes to zoning and scoring.

Be interested to see a shorty vanguard wing army may have to try it 

[PJetski]

19 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Looks good on the Castigators and Prosecutors. I keep expecting Castigators to be better in general (relatively cheap Rend-2 is nothing to scoff at), but man they just kinda underperform, don't they?

Prosecutors actually seem pretty reasonable. Maybe there's something to Vanguard Wing as a shooting list after all, 3 of them + a larger sized unit of Judis could put out some honest ranged damage and keep drops down. Worth testing.

Crunching numbers on the Longstrikes, they're just off a bit, looks like it's not calculating the 2 MWs from 6s correctly. Should be 3.33/3.78/4.22/4.66/4.66/4.66, unless I'm crunching numbers wrong (2.67 * save + 2MW).

3 shots with a 1/6 chance to headshot is 0.5 headshots per volley. 0.5 headshots at 2 mw = 1 mortal wound on average

[Future]

@Requizen is 9 drops better than 14? What is 9 beating? Honest question, I feel like after 5-7 you might as well build the perfect list instead of trying to beat an opponent on drops. If 14 gets you a better list than 9, I say go for it.

[Requizen]

Just now, PJetski said:

3 shots with a 1/6 chance to headshot is 0.5 headshots per volley. 0.5 headshots at 2 mw = 1 mortal wound on average

Oh true, but then should still be 2.33/2.78/3.22/3.66/3.66/3.66 rather than what's on there, which bumps up their numbers against 2+ to 4+ armor by a bit.

5 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Be interested to see a shorty vanguard wing army may have to try it 

Here's a first thought:

Anvils

Relictor - Translocation, Gryph Feather Charm
Ordinator - Soulthief
Incantor - General, Thundershock
Incantor - Stormcaller(?)

5 Libs
5 Libs
15 Judis

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Prosecutors
Prosecutors
Prosecutors
Skinks

Vanguard Wing

2000/2000

12 Drops. Pretty MSU shooty other than the 15 Judis, but when I see "6s explode", my immediate thought is "big unit firing twice with Anvils". While you don't necessarily need to take full advantage of the Battalion rules... why not try it? It's been discussed in the thread before, this would be a pretty efficient shooting army. That said, it could go a bit less shooty, dropping the Ballistas in favor of a Sequitor blob like so:

Anvils

Arcanum - General, Azyrite Halo
Relictor - Soulthief
Incantor - Thundershock
Castellant - [Artifact 2 (Lantern of the Tempest, Gryph Feather)]

5 Libs
15 Judis
20 Sequitors

3 Prosecutors
3 Prosecutors
3 Prosecutors
Skinks

Vanguard Wing

2000/2000

Now this runs fairly similar to the current Anvils setup, you just trade the Evocators for the Battalion, extra shooting, and Sequitor blob. Has  similar downsides to the Longstrikes (if the Judis get hit they blow up), but they have more wounds and you have a stronger frontline to receive charges, not to mention faster spreading out/zoning options with the Prosecutors.

[Requizen]

Just now, Future said:

@Requizen is 9 drops better than 14? What is 9 beating? Honest question, I feel like after 5-7 you might as well build the perfect list instead of trying to beat an opponent on drops. If 14 gets you a better list than 9, I say go for it.

9 beats a lot of non-Battalion armies, I would put many armies at ~10 drops on average. At any case, it's beating more than 14, though obviously it's doing nothing in regards to stuff that are sitting at 6 or less.

Still, that list with the Vanguard Justicar is good nonetheless imo, the Battalion is fairly priced and having more Artifacts/CP is always worthwhile.

[Future]

Yeah I guess its a local meta thing. I feel like at our events its a lot of hordes sitting on low drops. Deepkin, Khorne, Nagash, SCE but for instance I brought an 8 drop list and got 0 choices all day.

[Requizen]

3 minutes ago, Future said:

Yeah I guess its a local meta thing. I feel like at our events its a lot of hordes sitting on low drops. Deepkin, Khorne, Nagash, SCE but for instance I brought an 8 drop list and got 0 choices all day.

I think Skaven and Gitz will remain a bit higher, since they bring a lot of small Heroes and few if any Battalions. But yeah, it's rare at best. 

[jaebird]

Hey folks! I was wondering if I could get some feedback on a 1000pt list? I'm just starting to collect some Stormcast, I wanted to start with some neat models that would be pretty good on the table, if I ever got a chance to play. So it's a mix of a few units to act as an anvil, and the ballistas coming down on a weak flank to inflict some damage. Two ballistas seem like a better deal than other shooting options at 1000pts?

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Knight-Incantor (140)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief
Lord-Ordinator (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

[leeroyT]

6 hours ago, jaebird said:

Hey folks! I was wondering if I could get some feedback on a 1000pt list? I'm just starting to collect some Stormcast, I wanted to start with some neat models that would be pretty good on the table, if I ever got a chance to play. So it's a mix of a few units to act as an anvil, and the ballistas coming down on a weak flank to inflict some damage. Two ballistas seem like a better deal than other shooting options at 1000pts?

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Knight-Incantor (140)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief
Lord-Ordinator (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Youdon't have to take three battleline units when you play vanguard. I'd consider dropping both liberators and splitting the sequitors into 5s as you don't have anything to buff the larger unit. You could then take another ballista and a knight azyros this leaves you some points for some endless spells possibly.

Other than that you're list is heading in the right direction bud. 

[Ozzy0sb]

Sequitors are only battleline with a lord arcanum as general.

[Nos]

2 hours ago, leeroyT said:

Youdon't have to take three battleline units when you play vanguard. I'd consider dropping both liberators and splitting the sequitors into 5s as you don't have anything to buff the larger unit. You could then take another ballista and a knight azyros this leaves you some points for some endless spells possibly.

Other than that you're list is heading in the right direction bud. 

He’d have to take Lord Arcanum to do that as general.

@leeroyT Lord Arcanum plus 2 x 10 Sequitors (or a 10 and 2 x 5) plus a Lord Ordinator and 2 Ballistae is 1000 exactly and very strong.

I’m a big advocate of a Liberators for controlling objectives and providing bodies but in 1000 points that shouldn’t be an issue with this list. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Nos

[That Guy]

40 minutes ago, Nos said:

Lord Ordinator

Which of the 2 is considered better? The one with astral hammers or with the astral grandhammer?

[ledha]

1 minute ago, That Guy said:

Which of the 2 is considered better? The one with astral hammers or with the astral grandhammer?

it doesn't really matter, if your ordinator is engaged in melee, something went REALLY wrong anyway.