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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

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Are you going with a stormhost or SD?

I'd consider swapping incantor for gavriel and the judicators for 5 libs so that you can get a Castellant in aswell.

This swap is for hammers stormhost ofc.

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:24 PM, ledha said:

area denial : asingle 40mm base create a area of interdiction of 8" your opponent can't cross except if he fly or charge.  

Just run 3" in front og a big blob and look it having to take the other way around because of your single gryph-hound. If he charge your gryph hound, he will have to attack it first. If he doesnt.. the gryph-hound can attack, retreat in front of the ennemy unit but outside its reach. Rince and repeat.

Or charge the edge of a blob while another big unit charge somewhere else, making pile-in more difficult.  It make another very big area denial against deepstrike. Very cool in games where you don't have to "waste" a unit staying behind to prevent deepstrike in your a**.

In low-points game, he is very useful for his big move+charge+move after attack. He can quickly flank the ennemy army, and your opponent may not always have enough units to use one to chase your gryph hound. And if he dedicate one to this, it's still a whole unit who had to go in the outsides of the board to chase a free model. If your opponent don't chase the gryph hound, he can grab or contest an objective. His single base also mean that few models can attack him, so his survival is better than it look.

And, of course, near a gunline, he can scare some deepstrikes.

Of course, against shooting, he is usually shot off before doing anything good. But against full melee army, he can be a real pain.

I ended up 5th of a 1000 pts tournament with a weak list (no sacrosanct, only liberators, protectors, a castellant and a veritant) thanks only to the two gryph hound who are an enormous pain to deal with.

I did the Block a unit thing with it once but never again.  The idea that a single dog bird can block advancing mass of 80 skeletons etc is clearly an unintended accident of the rules.

Dont get me wrong it’s in the rules and everything and anything goes in tournaments  but in the context of friendly matched play it’s utter cheese.

Edited by Nos

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6 hours ago, Nos said:

I did the Block a unit thing with it once but never again.  The idea that a single dog bird can block advancing mass of 80 skeletons etc is clearly an unintended accident of the rules.

Dont get me wrong it’s in the rules and everything and anything goes in tournaments  but in the context of friendly matched play it’s utter cheese.

That's how the interdiction area of 3" work. It make lone characters and small units very good to block massive units, and make massive units less mobile and more vulnerable to that sort of manoeuvers. It's the entire purpose of skirmishing units like skinks, freeguild's archers or aertherwing. If your opponent bring ton of big blocks of unit but don't have any plan against those 5/10 models units, then he messed up

Edited by ledha

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15 minutes ago, ledha said:

That's how the interdiction area of 3" work. It make lone characters and small units very good to block massive units, and make massive units less mobile and more vulnerable to that sort of manoeuvers. It's the entire purpose of skirmishing units like skinks, freeguild's archers or aertherwing. If your opponent bring ton of big blocks of unit but don't have any plan against those 5/10 models units, then he messed up

I understand how it works, as I stated above.

But the idea of one dude/less than gigantic creature somehow stopping a regiment without the aid of magical assistance is ludicrous. I'm supposed to believe that 50+ of something are honestly going to prevaricate over how to get past one guy rather than just running him over? True on the battlefield a massive regiment is unwieldy etc but that's because it has to co-ordinate movement on a colossal scale, and even then that only goes so far because that's based off historical example, there's no lore based reason why non-humans with supernatural capacity for war or magically animated beings who can't think, get confused, have no freedom of will etc should find maneuvering difficult .

But all that aside, there's nothing remotely complicated about a horde walking in a straight line over or past one man/woman/dog/bird etc.  And there's literally no way you can explain how a Gryph Hound halts 80 skeletons or 80 anything unless they all chase it like they're in Scooby do, and why would they do that.  The press of big units is recognised in how their attacks, to hit/wound etc is modelled, so the idea that they somehow lose that momentum and power when faced with literally one of a human-sized something just because they're walking feels pretty dumb. 

I disagree that it stops horde armies from taking big units as well, because the armies that have horde options don't need their hordes to move, they can sit on objectives, take up a massive footprint to mess up alpha striking, while still having access to units that allow them to take objectives or tabletop you regardless.  

Edited by Nos

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15 minutes ago, Nos said:

I understand how it works, as I stated above.

But the idea of one dude/less than gigantic creature somehow stopping a regiment without the aid of magical assistance is ludicrous. I'm supposed to believe that 50+ of something are honestly going to prevaricate over how to get past one guy rather than just running him over?

It's a game, not a balanced simulation of warfare. Why the archers would be able to fire at a monster wrecking them ? Why aren't the boat immune to melee attacks ? Why does a 20-tons mawkrusha can't smash trough a sylvaneth forest and go where he want ? How the hell a stardrake can eat a kurnoth hunter ?  Why does the stormcast teleport religiously far away from their opponent ?

For the same reason that a handful of models can halt the advance of bigger regiments. It doesn't make sense but we shouldn't care. Plus, every model represent many more soldiers "in reality", and history is full of big armies being bog down by much smaller band of soldiers.

This being "realistic" or whatever is absolutely not important or even meaningful here anyway.

And i don't say it stop people from taking hordes, it just give a flaw to those to not make the decision of spamming hordes a no-brainer. 

Edited by ledha
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10 minutes ago, ledha said:

It's a game, not a balanced simulation of warfare. Why the archers would be able to fire at a monster wrecking them ? Why aren't the boat immune to melee attacks ? Why does a 20-tons mawkrusha can't smash trough a sylvaneth forest and go where he want ? How the hell a stardrake can eat a kurnoth hunter ? For the same reason that a handful of models can halt the advance of bigger regiments.

This being "realistic" or whatever is absolutely not important or even meaningful here.

In that case why all the realism elsewhere? Why doesen't everything fly, why can't people run forever, why can't I pile in 17" away, why aren't weapons made of cheese, why can't a skeleton eat a Mangler Squig ?  Fun game this. 

It's a simulation and 90% of it's rules follow that basis. It's quite easy to imagine a unit of archers having a component firing in from the back ranks while the front engage the charge. The Mawkrusha can fly so he basically can go where he wants. A stardrake can eat a Kurnoth hunter by biting off it's head, I don't think it literally means it's gobbles it up like Pinnochio with the Whale, it's clearly intended to imply that the Stardrake, having huge powerful jaws, can end the life of something with ease, ditto the Dracoth rule. It's very easy to imagine a unit engaging with a boat skimming over the battlefield with it's crew hanging off the gunwwhales etc. Not only is it easy to imagine these things, it's a huge part of the fun and the spectacle of it all, it's an important bridge between the rules and the narrative of what's going on. 

Your turn, how does a gryphhound impede 80 skeletons? 

Edited by Nos

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On the topic of a gryph hound stopping a unit for a turn, I see nothing wrong with it, but further to this, I don't even see that it would work like your saying except in the form of deep striking. Whenever I've had small units on the field and I'm going up against a large unit that's assaulting me, they typically assault straight past me, touching my few models with however many they feel is necessary to kill that model while still taking the fight on past it. If anything that lone gryph hound will actually help opponents engage with you faster, while doing nothing to provide any sort of attack strength in the process.

In your hypothetical scenario, 40 skeletons will charge the gryph hound, and the majority of them will flow right on past him into the units behind him, and behave exactly like your imagined "wade past the lone guy".

There's nothing a single model can do to stop an opponent from leap frogging past it and going for another model behind it. And in fact, the charge rules are quite a bit more favorable to the opponent with the large unit than the one with the small unit. Gryph hounds have poor saves and generally will just die in a puff of smoke the first time they engage anything. They aren't good units, and you're talking about them like they break the game or something. If I saw my opponent stick a gryph hound out in front of his army expecting that to slow me down or protect his army in any way, shape, or form, I'd probably just laugh.  Single gryph hounds aren't "screens" - they don't have a big enough footprint for that, and I'd argue that the larger packs are some of the worst models in our arsenal that you could use as a screen, in general. They are very expensive, and have pretty low survive ability unless they go first, and that's only because they can retreat, which won't win you any objectives.

They are a nuissance/harrassment unit AT BEST. Stop trying to make out like they are some form of cheese. I don't even know where you're getting that idea.

 

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5-0 with Anvilstrike this weekend. Swapped the Castellant for Incantor and while the Dispel isn't always necessary, the games where it's clutch are very noteworthy. I didn't miss the save as much as the Gryph Hound, missed that extra free model to zone and hold objectives. 

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On 2/9/2019 at 11:00 PM, Roark said:

He has a handy little +1 to unbind too. I think he could be cool in a Staunch + Castellant / "impregnable testudo" type list, but I wonder how the maths of Elemental Shield saves compares with just having 100pts more guys running around...

Interesting question, I guess barring any instant kill mechanics (like Stardrake bite or Hand of Dust) it makes all units in the bubble 16.67% more survivable... so it depends on what you have in the area and how much you can afford to lose the extra offense/objective control of those 100 points of units. There's probably not a solid math answer, but lists that use a core unit or two that can remain within the 18" area would probably benefit more than the 100 points would.

Anvils shooting lists might be the exception, as I don't think you want your Longstrikes taking any fire - and they're so fragile I'm not sure how much a 6+ ignore is going to do... I think I'd rather have the extra units.  

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2 hours ago, Requizen said:

5-0 with Anvilstrike this weekend. Swapped the Castellant for Incantor and while the Dispel isn't always necessary, the games where it's clutch are very noteworthy. I didn't miss the save as much as the Gryph Hound, missed that extra free model to zone and hold objectives. 

What list are you playing as anvils?

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Yaay Stardrake player made Nr2 🤗 at LVO, that is so awesome 💗 

The other Sce had kinda a hard draw with his list and total commiment 😂

Brace for impact- nerf sce  shouting persons Incoming 😬

Edited by schwabbele

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A lon

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

On the topic of a gryph hound stopping a unit for a turn, I see nothing wrong with it, but further to this, I don't even see that it would work like your saying except in the form of deep striking. Whenever I've had small units on the field and I'm going up against a large unit that's assaulting me, they typically assault straight past me, touching my few models with however many they feel is necessary to kill that model while still taking the fight on past it. If anything that lone gryph hound will actually help opponents engage with you faster, while doing nothing to provide any sort of attack strength in the process.

In your hypothetical scenario, 40 skeletons will charge the gryph hound, and the majority of them will flow right on past him into the units behind him, and behave exactly like your imagined "wade past the lone guy".

There's nothing a single model can do to stop an opponent from leap frogging past it and going for another model behind it. And in fact, the charge rules are quite a bit more favorable to the opponent with the large unit than the one with the small unit. Gryph hounds have poor saves and generally will just die in a puff of smoke the first time they engage anything. They aren't good units, and you're talking about them like they break the game or something. If I saw my opponent stick a gryph hound out in front of his army expecting that to slow me down or protect his army in any way, shape, or form, I'd probably just laugh.  Single gryph hounds aren't "screens" - they don't have a big enough footprint for that, and I'd argue that the larger packs are some of the worst models in our arsenal that you could use as a screen, in general. They are very expensive, and have pretty low survive ability unless they go first, and that's only because they can retreat, which won't win you any objectives.

They are a nuissance/harrassment unit AT BEST. Stop trying to make out like they are some form of cheese. I don't even know where you're getting that idea.

 

A lone gryph-hound won't completely stop a unit, but preventing it to move past it in the movement phase make the charge harder to reach the units behind. if the ennemy's 40 skellies are 3" away of your gryph hound and 9" of your others behind units at the start of his move phase, it will be harder for him to reach those units than if the gryph-hound wasn't there, because he can't simply move toward you (since he can't use his normal move and going toward you without being at less than 3").

It's far from cheese, but i used it enough to know it can work outside of simple theory. Even if it work only one time, it's ok, it's a free model.

Edited by ledha

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8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

On the topic of a gryph hound stopping a unit for a turn, I see nothing wrong with it, but further to this, I don't even see that it would work like your saying except in the form of deep striking. Whenever I've had small units on the field and I'm going up against a large unit that's assaulting me, they typically assault straight past me, touching my few models with however many they feel is necessary to kill that model while still taking the fight on past it. If anything that lone gryph hound will actually help opponents engage with you faster, while doing nothing to provide any sort of attack strength in the process.

In your hypothetical scenario, 40 skeletons will charge the gryph hound, and the majority of them will flow right on past him into the units behind him, and behave exactly like your imagined "wade past the lone guy".

There's nothing a single model can do to stop an opponent from leap frogging past it and going for another model behind it. And in fact, the charge rules are quite a bit more favorable to the opponent with the large unit than the one with the small unit. Gryph hounds have poor saves and generally will just die in a puff of smoke the first time they engage anything. They aren't good units, and you're talking about them like they break the game or something. If I saw my opponent stick a gryph hound out in front of his army expecting that to slow me down or protect his army in any way, shape, or form, I'd probably just laugh.  Single gryph hounds aren't "screens" - they don't have a big enough footprint for that, and I'd argue that the larger packs are some of the worst models in our arsenal that you could use as a screen, in general. They are very expensive, and have pretty low survive ability unless they go first, and that's only because they can retreat, which won't win you any objectives.

They are a nuissance/harrassment unit AT BEST. Stop trying to make out like they are some form of cheese. I don't even know where you're getting that idea.

 

I’ll say whatever I like thanks 👍🏻 

The Gryph Hound impeding a way larger units than itself is an established thing that I happen to find quite cheesey.  What you explain as happening is that the massive unit still detours round the single individual, it’s movement is affected by it nonetheless. If you read that in a piece of lore, that a unit of skeletons formed a conga line to skirt past a gryph hound rather than just simply trample over it as though it wasn’t there, you’d find it plausible?

But note I’m not demanding it be removed from the game or that other people agree with me. I’m just stating what I think and why. Never once have I told someone to change their behaviour over the discussion like you just have.

Edited by Nos

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Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 

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22 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 

Mayb to make extra shooty could take out incantor and geminids and add in ordinator plus 3 ballistas 

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7 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Mayb to make extra shooty could take out incantor and geminids and add in ordinator plus 3 ballistas 

Well, ordinator + 3 ballistas is 440. Incantor + Geminids is 180...

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9 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Well, ordinator + 3 ballistas is 440. Incantor + Geminids is 180...

Sorry ment with spare points also to make to 2000

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10 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Well, ordinator + 3 ballistas is 440. Incantor + Geminids is 180...

My mistake didn’t notice was for a 1750 list sorry

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9 hours ago, Requizen said:

5-0 with Anvilstrike this weekend. Swapped the Castellant for Incantor and while the Dispel isn't always necessary, the games where it's clutch are very noteworthy. I didn't miss the save as much as the Gryph Hound, missed that extra free model to zone and hold objectives. 

If you can spare the 20 points swap your Relictor to a Veritant

Not only do you get a gryph hound, but you also get better melee attacks, an extra wound, and an unbind (potentially at +3)

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8 hours ago, Naprapaten said:

What list are you playing as anvils?

This list, but swapped the Castellant for an Incantor:

I've been using it for a while now, starting to get a good handle on matchups. It's got a rough go against massed bodies unless the Evos do real work, but overall there's a lot of power in the list and I'm quite happy with it.

Overall the swap for the Incantor has felt nice, but the lack of the extra CP is noticeable. I might do some slight tweaking before Adepticon but I think I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it right now.

2 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 

Looks interesting! It'll depend very much on terrain and missions, but this is a pretty strong list for just walking forward and removing units. I would be tempted to swap the Azyros for a Castellant - you want those Sequitors to survive as long as possible, as soon as they die you really start to become quite vulnerable in the rest of your units, so the +1 save makes a pretty big difference here.

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

If you can spare the 20 points swap your Relictor to a Veritant

Not only do you get a gryph hound, but you also get better melee attacks, an extra wound, and an unbind (potentially at +3)

It's 1990, so that's a bit rough. Though I have considered swapping the Skinks for Aetherwings, which would open up 10 points.

But also, Lightning Storm has been so good in many of my games - hitting a monster or big unit with -1 to hit slows things down so much that it's not even funny. And occasionally hitting an Evocator unit with Healing Storm to keep it from death for another turn is huge, way bigger than the Hound imo.

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47 minutes ago, Requizen said:

But also, Lightning Storm has been so good in many of my games - hitting a monster or big unit with -1 to hit slows things down so much that it's not even funny. And occasionally hitting an Evocator unit with Healing Storm to keep it from death for another turn is huge, way bigger than the Hound imo. 

Back then when the relictor was 80 pts, i played 4 of them with lightning chariot. For 320 pts (10 judicators) those 4D3 mortal wounds and -1 to hit were absolutely absurd. I could make two ennemy units completely irrelevant, and it was ridiculously cost effective

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When playing Anvilstrike I find Lightning Storm to be mostly pointless since anything at that range will be stuck in combat with Aetherwings for a turn before they get shot off the table. Outside of 12" the Relictor has no impact on the table - I would much rather have another 30" unbind and a gryph hound.

Trading the Skinks + Relictor for Veritant + Aetherwings seems like an upgrade to me.

Edited by PJetski

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28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

When playing Anvilstrike I find Lightning Storm to be mostly pointless since anything at that range will be stuck in combat with Aetherwings for a turn before they get shot off the table. Outside of 12" the Relictor has no impact on the table - I would much rather have another 30" unbind and a gryph hound.

Trading the Skinks + Relictor for Veritant + Aetherwings seems like an upgrade to me.

I think it's personal preference, for sure. Nothing wrong with the Veritant in this situation, but when something does get close to my Longstrikes, I like to shut it down hard. I'm also a bit more aggressive with my Longstrike placement lately, so that 12" bubble is generally further up the board where it has some impact. But yeah, I don't think one is completely better than the other.

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How are people dealing with death/summoning armies?  With proper screening they just start flooding the board and I'm overrun.  

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27 minutes ago, chord said:

How are people dealing with death/summoning armies?  With proper screening they just start flooding the board and I'm overrun.  

All summoning armies are based on their heroes (usually their general) so you just need to take them out before they add too many models to the table. Victory goes to the swift.

Specifically against Legions of Nagash you should focus on putting units on top of their graveyards - they can't put a unit down within 9" of an enemy, so if you sit on the graveyard they can't respawn there.

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