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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

On the topic of a gryph hound stopping a unit for a turn, I see nothing wrong with it, but further to this, I don't even see that it would work like your saying except in the form of deep striking. Whenever I've had small units on the field and I'm going up against a large unit that's assaulting me, they typically assault straight past me, touching my few models with however many they feel is necessary to kill that model while still taking the fight on past it. If anything that lone gryph hound will actually help opponents engage with you faster, while doing nothing to provide any sort of attack strength in the process.

In your hypothetical scenario, 40 skeletons will charge the gryph hound, and the majority of them will flow right on past him into the units behind him, and behave exactly like your imagined "wade past the lone guy".

There's nothing a single model can do to stop an opponent from leap frogging past it and going for another model behind it. And in fact, the charge rules are quite a bit more favorable to the opponent with the large unit than the one with the small unit. Gryph hounds have poor saves and generally will just die in a puff of smoke the first time they engage anything. They aren't good units, and you're talking about them like they break the game or something. If I saw my opponent stick a gryph hound out in front of his army expecting that to slow me down or protect his army in any way, shape, or form, I'd probably just laugh.  Single gryph hounds aren't "screens" - they don't have a big enough footprint for that, and I'd argue that the larger packs are some of the worst models in our arsenal that you could use as a screen, in general. They are very expensive, and have pretty low survive ability unless they go first, and that's only because they can retreat, which won't win you any objectives.

They are a nuissance/harrassment unit AT BEST. Stop trying to make out like they are some form of cheese. I don't even know where you're getting that idea.

 

A lone gryph-hound won't completely stop a unit, but preventing it to move past it in the movement phase make the charge harder to reach the units behind. if the ennemy's 40 skellies are 3" away of your gryph hound and 9" of your others behind units at the start of his move phase, it will be harder for him to reach those units than if the gryph-hound wasn't there, because he can't simply move toward you (since he can't use his normal move and going toward you without being at less than 3").

It's far from cheese, but i used it enough to know it can work outside of simple theory. Even if it work only one time, it's ok, it's a free model.

Edited by ledha
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8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

On the topic of a gryph hound stopping a unit for a turn, I see nothing wrong with it, but further to this, I don't even see that it would work like your saying except in the form of deep striking. Whenever I've had small units on the field and I'm going up against a large unit that's assaulting me, they typically assault straight past me, touching my few models with however many they feel is necessary to kill that model while still taking the fight on past it. If anything that lone gryph hound will actually help opponents engage with you faster, while doing nothing to provide any sort of attack strength in the process.

In your hypothetical scenario, 40 skeletons will charge the gryph hound, and the majority of them will flow right on past him into the units behind him, and behave exactly like your imagined "wade past the lone guy".

There's nothing a single model can do to stop an opponent from leap frogging past it and going for another model behind it. And in fact, the charge rules are quite a bit more favorable to the opponent with the large unit than the one with the small unit. Gryph hounds have poor saves and generally will just die in a puff of smoke the first time they engage anything. They aren't good units, and you're talking about them like they break the game or something. If I saw my opponent stick a gryph hound out in front of his army expecting that to slow me down or protect his army in any way, shape, or form, I'd probably just laugh.  Single gryph hounds aren't "screens" - they don't have a big enough footprint for that, and I'd argue that the larger packs are some of the worst models in our arsenal that you could use as a screen, in general. They are very expensive, and have pretty low survive ability unless they go first, and that's only because they can retreat, which won't win you any objectives.

They are a nuissance/harrassment unit AT BEST. Stop trying to make out like they are some form of cheese. I don't even know where you're getting that idea.

 

I’ll say whatever I like thanks 👍🏻 

The Gryph Hound impeding a way larger units than itself is an established thing that I happen to find quite cheesey.  What you explain as happening is that the massive unit still detours round the single individual, it’s movement is affected by it nonetheless. If you read that in a piece of lore, that a unit of skeletons formed a conga line to skirt past a gryph hound rather than just simply trample over it as though it wasn’t there, you’d find it plausible?

But note I’m not demanding it be removed from the game or that other people agree with me. I’m just stating what I think and why. Never once have I told someone to change their behaviour over the discussion like you just have.

Edited by Nos
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Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 
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22 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 

Mayb to make extra shooty could take out incantor and geminids and add in ordinator plus 3 ballistas 

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9 hours ago, Requizen said:

5-0 with Anvilstrike this weekend. Swapped the Castellant for Incantor and while the Dispel isn't always necessary, the games where it's clutch are very noteworthy. I didn't miss the save as much as the Gryph Hound, missed that extra free model to zone and hold objectives. 

If you can spare the 20 points swap your Relictor to a Veritant

Not only do you get a gryph hound, but you also get better melee attacks, an extra wound, and an unbind (potentially at +3)

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8 hours ago, Naprapaten said:

What list are you playing as anvils?

This list, but swapped the Castellant for an Incantor:

I've been using it for a while now, starting to get a good handle on matchups. It's got a rough go against massed bodies unless the Evos do real work, but overall there's a lot of power in the list and I'm quite happy with it.

Overall the swap for the Incantor has felt nice, but the lack of the extra CP is noticeable. I might do some slight tweaking before Adepticon but I think I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it right now.

2 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Trying to make shooting list for next T but point format is odd ( 1750 ). Here is what a already comes to my mind. @Requizen It would be great to hear your opinion. ( You are my shooty senpai 😛 ).

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (540)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Endless Spells
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1740 / 1750
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103



 

Looks interesting! It'll depend very much on terrain and missions, but this is a pretty strong list for just walking forward and removing units. I would be tempted to swap the Azyros for a Castellant - you want those Sequitors to survive as long as possible, as soon as they die you really start to become quite vulnerable in the rest of your units, so the +1 save makes a pretty big difference here.

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

If you can spare the 20 points swap your Relictor to a Veritant

Not only do you get a gryph hound, but you also get better melee attacks, an extra wound, and an unbind (potentially at +3)

It's 1990, so that's a bit rough. Though I have considered swapping the Skinks for Aetherwings, which would open up 10 points.

But also, Lightning Storm has been so good in many of my games - hitting a monster or big unit with -1 to hit slows things down so much that it's not even funny. And occasionally hitting an Evocator unit with Healing Storm to keep it from death for another turn is huge, way bigger than the Hound imo.

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47 minutes ago, Requizen said:

But also, Lightning Storm has been so good in many of my games - hitting a monster or big unit with -1 to hit slows things down so much that it's not even funny. And occasionally hitting an Evocator unit with Healing Storm to keep it from death for another turn is huge, way bigger than the Hound imo. 

Back then when the relictor was 80 pts, i played 4 of them with lightning chariot. For 320 pts (10 judicators) those 4D3 mortal wounds and -1 to hit were absolutely absurd. I could make two ennemy units completely irrelevant, and it was ridiculously cost effective

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When playing Anvilstrike I find Lightning Storm to be mostly pointless since anything at that range will be stuck in combat with Aetherwings for a turn before they get shot off the table. Outside of 12" the Relictor has no impact on the table - I would much rather have another 30" unbind and a gryph hound.

Trading the Skinks + Relictor for Veritant + Aetherwings seems like an upgrade to me.

Edited by PJetski
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28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

When playing Anvilstrike I find Lightning Storm to be mostly pointless since anything at that range will be stuck in combat with Aetherwings for a turn before they get shot off the table. Outside of 12" the Relictor has no impact on the table - I would much rather have another 30" unbind and a gryph hound.

Trading the Skinks + Relictor for Veritant + Aetherwings seems like an upgrade to me.

I think it's personal preference, for sure. Nothing wrong with the Veritant in this situation, but when something does get close to my Longstrikes, I like to shut it down hard. I'm also a bit more aggressive with my Longstrike placement lately, so that 12" bubble is generally further up the board where it has some impact. But yeah, I don't think one is completely better than the other.

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27 minutes ago, chord said:

How are people dealing with death/summoning armies?  With proper screening they just start flooding the board and I'm overrun.  

All summoning armies are based on their heroes (usually their general) so you just need to take them out before they add too many models to the table. Victory goes to the swift.

Specifically against Legions of Nagash you should focus on putting units on top of their graveyards - they can't put a unit down within 9" of an enemy, so if you sit on the graveyard they can't respawn there.

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7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

All summoning armies are based on their heroes (usually their general) so you just need to take them out before they add too many models to the table. Victory goes to the swift.

Specifically against Legions of Nagash you should focus on putting units on top of their graveyards - they can't put a unit down within 9" of an enemy, so if you sit on the graveyard they can't respawn there.

This is why I think at least a measure of shooting/damage casting (cough cough Comet) will be necessary for every SCE list. Kill the Heroes, win the games. I won in basically T1 against a LoN army because I killed the general, and it was the only thing that let me claw to victory against double VLoZD in Duality. 

You know what's really good at killing Heroes that like to hide? Comets and Longstrikes. I think if you're not running at least one of those, you'll struggle super hard against heavy summoning/resummoning armies.

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That's why I think ranged units have their places even in a heavy infantry Gav bomb list. Killing heroes behind the enemy's ranks is quite tricky and important.Beaten by the Nighthaunt once and learned that a pure melee army might struggle to get to kill heroes behind the resurrectable units.

Edited by frostfire
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9 hours ago, Nos said:

I’ll say whatever I like thanks 👍🏻 

The Gryph Hound impeding a way larger units than itself is an established thing that I happen to find quite cheesey.  What you explain as happening is that the massive unit still detours round the single individual, it’s movement is affected by it nonetheless. If you read that in a piece of lore, that a unit of skeletons formed a conga line to skirt past a gryph hound rather than just simply trample over it as though it wasn’t there, you’d find it plausible?

But note I’m not demanding it be removed from the game or that other people agree with me. I’m just stating what I think and why. Never once have I told someone to change their behaviour over the discussion like you just have.

You’re suggesting that if an opposing unit out numbers another, it should just get trampled over and removed from the table because you feel that’s more realistic. 

The issue is that large units like skeletons don’t move very fast, and getting into charge range of a gryph hound actually makes them move faster than if he wasn’t there at all.

 I’m saying that I think it already works the way you say it doesn’t, and that your argument doesn’t make sense to me.

In game terms, a gryph hound is in front of 40 skeletons, the skeletons charge and move an extra 2D6” that they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise if he wasn’t there, they “probably” make contact with the unit behind, which they wouldn’t have been able to do if they didn’t get the extra charge distance because the gryph hound was there in the first place. The gryph hound dies to an overwhelming number of attacks. The skeletons are farther ahead than they were before and basically got free movement out of it.

It’s win win for the skeleton player. I don’t see what the problem is. The effectively “trampled” over the model, which is what you said you think they should do.

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What do people think of running a Dracoth with the same suite as the exploding Stardrake? A Staunch/Lantern/Molten Helm/Azyrite Halo Dracoth is, of course, 9 less wounds and doesn't have some of the abilities (table wide MWs, bite attack), but it frees up 340 points compared to the Stardrake. 7 wounds on a 2+RR will still take around 250 wounds to kill on average, though it is much more susceptible to MWs popping it out. 

Still, as a mini-bomb and not a full centerpiece of the list, you could buff it up and chuck it into Skeletons, Grots, Gors, etc and just watch them blow themselves up. And then you'd also have points left over to bring more to the table than just the minimal support pieces, which I think might make a more TAC list than the traditional Stardrake build.

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15 minutes ago, Requizen said:

What do people think of running a Dracoth with the same suite as the exploding Stardrake? A Staunch/Lantern/Molten Helm/Azyrite Halo Dracoth is, of course, 9 less wounds and doesn't have some of the abilities (table wide MWs, bite attack), but it frees up 340 points compared to the Stardrake. 7 wounds on a 2+RR will still take around 250 wounds to kill on average, though it is much more susceptible to MWs popping it out. 

Still, as a mini-bomb and not a full centerpiece of the list, you could buff it up and chuck it into Skeletons, Grots, Gors, etc and just watch them blow themselves up. And then you'd also have points left over to bring more to the table than just the minimal support pieces, which I think might make a more TAC list than the traditional Stardrake build.

Con you missed: you won’t have a star drake on the field. In seriousness I think it’s a lethal combo that will still work but does it cost to much investment compared to the points? That I don’t know but math hammer wizards could solve it.

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1 hour ago, Mark Williams said:

You’re suggesting that if an opposing unit out numbers another, it should just get trampled over and removed from the table because you feel that’s more realistic. 

The issue is that large units like skeletons don’t move very fast, and getting into charge range of a gryph hound actually makes them move faster than if he wasn’t there at all.

 I’m saying that I think it already works the way you say it doesn’t, and that your argument doesn’t make sense to me.

In game terms, a gryph hound is in front of 40 skeletons, the skeletons charge and move an extra 2D6” that they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise if he wasn’t there, they “probably” make contact with the unit behind, which they wouldn’t have been able to do if they didn’t get the extra charge distance because the gryph hound was there in the first place. The gryph hound dies to an overwhelming number of attacks. The skeletons are farther ahead than they were before and basically got free movement out of it.

It’s win win for the skeleton player. I don’t see what the problem is. The effectively “trampled” over the model, which is what you said you think they should do.

If the skellies start already at 3" of the gryph hound, they can't move past him (because of his 3" wide footprint and their 4" move which is not enough to just move around him). Then they have  only their charge roll to move : 2D6

If the gryph hound isn't there at all, they move normally, then charge, which is 4, then 2D6.

The trick is to use him by putting him just in front of ennemy units (not hard with a 9" move + run), not like 7-8" away of them.  I never recommended to be a complete idiot and just run blindly toward the ennemy for giving him a free move. Of course, it need to be skillfull and use it at the right moment against the right ennemy (it doesn't work against flying or VERY fast units) but that's how victory come.

Use it in your next game so you'll be able to see how it works. Well used it's very useful. 

Anyway, between you who say it doesn't work at all and the other who think it's pure cheese, i don't even know why i'm bother trying to help people...

Edited by ledha
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How will you guy deal with the updated screaming bell? It is hero, so by the skaven's new allegiance ability, it can retreat in combat. It is not a monster, so it can receive LOS. It has a unreasonable big debuff bubble when it rolls 10-11 for its ability: a 26" -1 hit bubble(which can stack). when it rolls 8-9, a 26" bubble, 4+ d3 mortal wounds to all enemy units. According to some leaked rumors, this is just a 200 points thing.....

Edited by HammerOfSigmar
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44 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

How will you guy deal with the updated screaming bell? It is hero, so by the skaven's new allegiance ability, it can retreat in combat. It is not a monster, so it can receive LOS. It has a unreasonable big debuff bubble when it rolls 10-11 for its ability: a 26" -1 hit bubble(which can stack). when it rolls 8-9, a 26" bubble, 4+ d3 mortal wounds to all enemy units. According to some leaked rumors, this is just a 200 points thing.....

I'd probably shoot it, but yeah with Look Out Sir and a 5+ shrug you're going to have a rough time of it. FEC and Skaven are both looking to be super strong and make the meta crazy. 

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1 hour ago, Requizen said:

What do people think of running a Dracoth with the same suite as the exploding Stardrake? A Staunch/Lantern/Molten Helm/Azyrite Halo Dracoth is, of course, 9 less wounds and doesn't have some of the abilities (table wide MWs, bite attack), but it frees up 340 points compared to the Stardrake. 7 wounds on a 2+RR will still take around 250 wounds to kill on average, though it is much more susceptible to MWs popping it out. 

Still, as a mini-bomb and not a full centerpiece of the list, you could buff it up and chuck it into Skeletons, Grots, Gors, etc and just watch them blow themselves up. And then you'd also have points left over to bring more to the table than just the minimal support pieces, which I think might make a more TAC list than the traditional Stardrake build.

My main issue with this would be: What's the rest of your list doing? If he's your general (which he is because Staunch) then no Sequitors as battleline, just Judicators and Liberators. So would you be using a Gavriel Bomb? Throwing Evocators at the problem until its fixed? I like the idea, I'm just not sure what the hammer would be to the tough anvil.

(Of note I missed out on watching any of LVO, so I haven't seen at all how the 2nd place list played.)

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8 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

My main issue with this would be: What's the rest of your list doing? If he's your general (which he is because Staunch) then no Sequitors as battleline, just Judicators and Liberators. So would you be using a Gavriel Bomb? Throwing Evocators at the problem until its fixed? I like the idea, I'm just not sure what the hammer would be to the tough anvil.

(Of note I missed out on watching any of LVO, so I haven't seen at all how the 2nd place list played.)

Still musing on that. Lib blobs are still quite tanky, and you don't need to run the LCoD up the board on turn 1 necessarily, so you can have a tanky Staunch blob that moves up slowly until you're ready to charge into a chaff blob with the Dracoth and then use the Libs to hold other things in place. Also, there's nothing stopping you from taking a Sequitor brick not as Battleline, which is what Stormcrutch (the #2 at LVO) did and used Judicators as his Battleline for some shooting support. I would imagine something similar for a Dracoth version.

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1 hour ago, Requizen said:

What do people think of running a Dracoth with the same suite as the exploding Stardrake? A Staunch/Lantern/Molten Helm/Azyrite Halo Dracoth is, of course, 9 less wounds and doesn't have some of the abilities (table wide MWs, bite attack), but it frees up 340 points compared to the Stardrake. 7 wounds on a 2+RR will still take around 250 wounds to kill on average, though it is much more susceptible to MWs popping it out. 

Still, as a mini-bomb and not a full centerpiece of the list, you could buff it up and chuck it into Skeletons, Grots, Gors, etc and just watch them blow themselves up. And then you'd also have points left over to bring more to the table than just the minimal support pieces, which I think might make a more TAC list than the traditional Stardrake build.

I think without the Ignax's Scales you will die pretty quickly to mortal wounds. The reason the Stardrake works is because it's really hard for most lists to do 16 mortal wounds in 1-2 rounds, and just about impossible to do ~32 mw required to get through Ignax. Doing 7 is a lot more manageable and achievable for most lists.

The Stardrake also has a much larger base and a much larger threat range - I can see people just ignoring an LCOD with this setup.

On a side note, I really wish the LCODracoth had a different command ability. It seems like he has no purpose - I would always rather have a Dracothian Guard unit instead.

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