AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[CareBear]

15 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Actually, if you play graviel bomb, you will find out that the 60 points from using LA will let you have 2 CP(plus the one from cleansing phalanx and subtract one to autopass battleshock since SCE will have more drops than your opponents) at the beginning of first turn, which almost guarantee a successful 9" charge(except double 1), which is great.

What do you mean plus one from cleansing phalanx?

How would I be able to fit that into my list?

Edited February 7, 2019 by CareBear

[Karragon]

11 minutes ago, CareBear said:

Why do you think Gavriel hurts more then he helps?

The plan currently is to deepstrike Gavriel+10 evocators to delete important targets, deepstrike ballistas+ordinator on an objective, keep the sequitors and the castellant on a point (defend it) and use the azyros to support the ballistas and the mortal wound bomb.

Two reasons really.

1) Because he's a one trick pony that basically everyone knows how to counter at this point

2) Over reliance on him means that no one wants to consider any other kind of list that may in fact be better, in a sort of "why would I try something else when I know Gavriel works" kind of way

@HammerOfSigmarin the list that was posted taking the LA would only get you 1 CP and Phalanx wasn't included so in the list in question they'd only have 1 from their turn and 1 extra if they went LA instead of LAoGC

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, sorry for the confusion. I should make separate comment. I mean two different things. The usage of LA on a graviel bomb-cleansing phalanx list is pretty crucial. That's the point I want to make. It is basically a 20 sequitors, 10 sequitors, 10 evocators, 5 evocators, graviel, vexillor, LA list. 

[CareBear]

17 minutes ago, Karragon said:

Over reliance on him means that no one wants to consider any other kind of list that may in fact be better, in a sort of "why would I try something else when I know Gavriel works" kind of way

Do you know any better listsor list ideas? (I would appreciate tips about 1k lists too, although 2k is my priority right now)

Edited February 7, 2019 by CareBear

[Requizen]

18 minutes ago, Karragon said:

Two reasons really.

1) Because he's a one trick pony that basically everyone knows how to counter at this point

2) Over reliance on him means that no one wants to consider any other kind of list that may in fact be better, in a sort of "why would I try something else when I know Gavriel works" kind of way

@HammerOfSigmarin the list that was posted taking the LA would only get you 1 CP and Phalanx wasn't included so in the list in question they'd only have 1 from their turn and 1 extra if they went LA instead of LAoGC

Hm I don't agree that "everyone knows how to counter it" at this point. It's still likely one of the strongest Stormcast lists at the moment. Many armies can't bubble out far enough to prevent a good drop, or don't have enough models in the army to really stop the charge from doing devastating damage. And the 40+ Sequitor versions are still insane at holding objectives and grinding the game out by locking entire armies in place. 

It is very one-note though, and certain armies (LoN, for example) are basically immune to it in the long run. But it's not "bad" nor is it out of meta.

[Twh30]

1 hour ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Since there is no lord aquilor in your list, I do recommend you the fly the pallador's to 3" away from the enemy that sits on the objectives and then use ballistas to shoot down the enemy sitting on the objective. Then the objective is yours. That's the best way to use palladors currently, which I can figure out.

Cool thanks for the advice. Do you think the list could be semi good or more just a fun list?

[Nos]

49 minutes ago, CareBear said:

Why do you think Gavriel hurts more then he helps?

The plan currently is to deepstrike Gavriel+10 evocators to delete important targets, deepstrike ballistas+ordinator on an objective, keep the sequitors and the castellant on a point (defend it) and use the azyros to support the ballistas and the mortal wound bomb.

Completley one dimensional and very predictable. And a good opponent will just screen and make it impossible for you to get your death blob within 9” of anything worth killing.

Then without a Heraldor to boost your combat movement you can look forward to enjoying walking half an army’s worth of points around doing nothing for most of the game.

Dont get me wrong if you get that unit to where it needs to be the turn it drops there’s few Elite striking options better than it in the game. But you’re spending a lot of points on a gamble badically. Oh and if Total Commitment cones up you’ll be amazed at how embarrassing it feels.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Nos

[CareBear]

2 minutes ago, Nos said:

Then without a Heraldor to boost your combat movement you can look forward to enjoying walking half an army’s worth of points around doing nothing for most of the game.

Well, if I only deepstrike the 10 evocators with Gavriel, they would still be able to kill anything, and it wouldn't be such a big deal. What do you think?

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, Nos said:

Completley one dimensional and very predictable. And a good opponent will just screen and make it impossible for you to get your death blob within 9” of anything worth killing.

Then without a Heraldor to boost your combat movement you can look forward to enjoying walking half an army’s worth of points around doing nothing for most of the game.

I see this sentiment a lot but again, it's a lot easier to say on paper than it is in practice. Even if you do bubble out your army behind chaff, then the Gav player is just going to charge in and blast them, and make a wall of 40 wound, rerolling saves units (two or more, likely) that you have to chew through before moving out on the map, and then countercharging with Evocators. 

It's one-note, but one-note doesn't mean easily shut down when that note is "control most of the board and still deal lots of damage". We already learned that with Vanguard Wing, and this is basically the 2.0 version of that (or perhaps the 3.0 version of Warrior Brotherhood).

[Nos]

Just now, Requizen said:

I see this sentiment a lot but again, it's a lot easier to say on paper than it is in practice. Even if you do bubble out your army behind chaff, then the Gav player is just going to charge in and blast them, and make a wall of 40 wound, rerolling saves units (two or more, likely) that you have to chew through before moving out on the map, and then countercharging with Evocators. 

It's one-note, but one-note doesn't mean easily shut down when that note is "control most of the board and still deal lots of damage". We already learned that with Vanguard Wing, and this is basically the 2.0 version of that (or perhaps the 3.0 version of Warrior Brotherhood).

I think it’s more the one-note aspect to be honest, the overkill of it all. Gav and 10 Evocators to Deep Strike, plus 10 separate Evocators to either start or deploy elsewhere, that’s still incredibly powerful and also far less eggs in basket. 

If you strike with 20 Evocators you basically win or lose in one go, as you say, ala Vanguard wing. It’s a DDOS attack with dice. It’s dumb. However I think with unbreakable Gloomspite stabbas and their massive footprint to add to the horde meta it’s going to be harder and harder to pull off anyway.

[Requizen]

5 minutes ago, Nos said:

I think it’s more the one-note aspect to be honest, the overkill of it all. Gav and 10 Evocators to Deep Strike, plus 10 separate Evocators to either start or deploy elsewhere, that’s still incredibly powerful and also far less eggs in basket. 

If you strike with 20 Evocators you basically win or lose in one go, as you say, ala Vanguard wing. It’s a DDOS attack with dice. It’s dumb. However I think with unbreakable Gloomspite stabbas and their massive footprint to add to the horde meta it’s going to be harder and harder to pull off anyway.

The power isn't in Evos though. Like, you might take a unit of 10, but the real strength of the Gav Bomb is in Sequitors. 20 Sequitors bringing 9 Greatmaces will put the hurt on pretty much every chaff unit already, and then be extremely durable to any counterpunch. 2x20 Sequitors and 10 Evos plays the old Vanguard Wing game - I'm going to tie up your whole army that I can touch, you're not going to be able to easily kill me, and I'm going to countercharge anything that pops through. Meanwhile, my Heroes and other units will sit on objectives and outscore you. 

Gary P actually ran straight up 60 Sequitors and just Birds and Heraldors to hold objectives, and I'm pretty sure only lost to the overall winner (though there was basically no coverage). It's basically exactly what Vanguard Wing did - it's not so much an Alpha that kills everything so much as it is an Alpha that doesn't let your opponent play the game.

[CareBear]

Is there any other ways to build your army that doesn't include a Gavbomb, but still functions well in competetive?

Edited February 7, 2019 by CareBear

[Karragon]

39 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Hm I don't agree that "everyone knows how to counter it" at this point. It's still likely one of the strongest Stormcast lists at the moment. Many armies can't bubble out far enough to prevent a good drop, or don't have enough models in the army to really stop the charge from doing devastating damage. And the 40+ Sequitor versions are still insane at holding objectives and grinding the game out by locking entire armies in place. 

It is very one-note though, and certain armies (LoN, for example) are basically immune to it in the long run. But it's not "bad" nor is it out of meta.

YMMV I just don't think I've ever played a game where he would have  been useful to me, between screens and effective board control by my opponents the only things I can ever charge with my deep strikes are "chaff" (I'm not sure 60 grots count as chaff given how much dmg they do...). 

@CareBear I don't really know what a better list would be, no one is doing much trying of anything other than Gav though what I'll be taking to Sheffield Slaughter and GW heat 1 will be this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (240)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Units
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112

 

In practise games with it I think I'm 7/1 though not all of my opponents list have necessarily been "tournament lists"

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, CareBear said:

Is there any other ways to build your army that doesn't include a Gavbomb, but still functions well in competetive?

I've got a pretty solid performance record with Anvils of the Heldenhammer, you can see my list earlier in this thread. There are a couple ways to play Anvils with shooting units.

 PJetski has been working on what seems to be a TAC Astral Templars list that I would love to try sometime, using Ballistas and Evocators. 

Stardrake builds are still quite powerful, as well. 

[CareBear]

2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

you can see my list earlier in this thread

Where? Which page?

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, CareBear said:

Where? Which page?

Sorry, here you go! I have since decided to swap my Lord-Castellant with a Knight-Incantor for a few reasons, which leaves me without the extra CP but I think the auto-dispel is more important overall. Taking it to an event this weekend so I'll report on how it performs.

So far I have quite a good record at events with it, I believe 10-3, only losses to two Nagash meta lists (still trying to figure this one out, hopefully the Incantor helps) and one wonky FEC summoning army (though now that I've played it I think I could have had a shot at winning if I had deployed differently, it's far from an unwinnable matchup).

It basically auto-wins against anything that has to just walk across the table. Other shooting armies can give it trouble, but depends on ranges and what not. 4 Stonehorns will mess it up all the way but I think you can still play missions well into them.

 

[CareBear]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Sorry, here you go!

Greatly appreciate it!

[HammerOfSigmar]

1 hour ago, Twh30 said:

Cool thanks for the advice. Do you think the list could be semi good or more just a fun list?

Well, I think it is semi good already if you are not playing tournament.

[CareBear]

Do you think the evocator primes +1 attack would be more benfitial with the grandstave or sword?

[HammerOfSigmar]

4 minutes ago, CareBear said:

Do you think the evocator primes +1 attack would be more benfitial with the grandstave or sword?

The grandstave's average damage is bigger than sword in all circumstance. Not to mention the 2" weapon range.

[DanielFM]

Hi guys! Long time no see!

Reading about the possibilities of Astral Templars alpha-strike, I redid one of my lists and I think I came into something (at least fun!)

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline(240)
- General
- Trait: Dauntless Hunters 
- Artefact: Godbeast Plate 
- Spell: Thundershock
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Speed of Lightning

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
 

Drakesworn, Dracolines and Lord Arcanum rush forward and hopefully combo-charge in the first turn (Lightning speed on the Incantor is for the Drakesworn). Judicators and the Incantor sit on the backfield and the rest drop from Azyr, to support the hammer blow or strategically in later turns to block/kill vulnerable targets/take objectives.

I think it's no tournament winner material but it can sure give some run for their money to middle tiers.

Would you change the spells? It's what I put less thought on.

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

Hi guys! Long time no see!

Reading about the possibilities of Astral Templars alpha-strike, I redid one of my lists and I think I came into something (at least fun!)

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline(240)
- General
- Trait: Dauntless Hunters 
- Artefact: Godbeast Plate 
- Spell: Thundershock
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Speed of Lightning

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
 

Drakesworn, Dracolines and Lord Arcanum rush forward and hopefully combo-charge in the first turn (Lightning speed on the Incantor is for the Drakesworn). Judicators and the Incantor sit on the backfield and the rest drop from Azyr, to support the hammer blow or strategically in later turns to block/kill vulnerable targets/take objectives.

I think it's no tournament winner material but it can sure give some run for their money to middle tiers.

Would you change the spells? It's what I put less thought on.

Hm, I think if you're running Phalanx, you really want bigger units to take advantage of the buffing and what not. I would either drop the Hurricanes to take more Sequitors, or just not take the Battalion, drop the foot Evocators, and run 6 Dracoline Evocators instead. It feels a bit like trying to take a little of everything, and fails to be good at any one thing.

I am interested in the use of a Drakesworn Templar. I love my LCoSD, but the extra 100 points is pretty noteworthy.

[CareBear]

Any good 1k stormcast lists out there?

[DanielFM]

11 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Hm, I think if you're running Phalanx, you really want bigger units to take advantage of the buffing and what not. I would either drop the Hurricanes to take more Sequitors, or just not take the Battalion, drop the foot Evocators, and run 6 Dracoline Evocators instead. It feels a bit like trying to take a little of everything, and fails to be good at any one thing.

I am interested in the use of a Drakesworn Templar. I love my LCoSD, but the extra 100 points is pretty noteworthy.

Thanks a lot for the advice. The battalion is to lower the drops, get an additional Pack Leader use and to get a useful artifact besides the mandatory one.

The list is not very focused, I know. The lack of optimization is a mix of "the models I own" and "rule of cool". I will try to do my best with it knowing there is a better verion of it out there.

Any advice for the spells?

PD. Yeah. LCOSD is way better, but those points allowed me to fit it in my list without changing it too much. And I think it will perform well.

Edited February 7, 2019 by DanielFM
More info

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, CareBear said:

Any good 1k stormcast lists out there?

Most anything works for Stormcast at 1k as long as you don't go too crazy. Heck, I've run a Stardrake at 1k and it won me the tournament XD

If you bring 2 units or more of shooting at low points, you're usually in a good spot. Being able to pump out good damage from a distance is so nice, you can't go wrong with stuff like Ballistas and Judicators.

55 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Thanks a lot for the advice. The battalion is to lower the drops, get an additional Pack Leader use and to get a useful artifact besides the mandatory one.

The list is not very focused, I know. The lack of optimization is a mix of "the models I own" and "rule of cool". I will try to do my best with it knowing there is a better verion of it out there.

Any advice for the spells?

PD. Yeah. LCOSD is way better, but those points allowed me to fit it in my list without changing it too much. And I think it will perform well.

Hm, I don't really think many of the Stormcast spells are too great. I'd rather just give both the Evocators Speed of Lightning, as Empower is better than Celestial Blades anyways so it's a bit redundant. I'd give the foot Incantor Lightning Blast or Stormcaller to have some ranged threat, and then give the Arcanum... anything really. They're all kinda equivalent, and she'll probably just be casting Arcane Bolt or a realm spell most of the time anyways. 

Azyrite Halo is the best spell in the book, but really only good if you have a strong tanky unit that's going to be rolling a lot of saves with rerolls. It's not great on Evos since they usually kill what they're in combat with before they take rolls, but I guess you could cast it on the Sequitors or something?