AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Nos]

24 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

I think Judicators are okayish, because the Prime is basically the heavy lifter of the unit, but castigators I can't see myself using anytime soon.

 

Castigators are decent hero snipers if you deepstrike them, I’ve caught a few spell casters who were sat in buildings thinking they were having a safe cup of tea. Innate re-rolling 1’s or rend-2 isn’t bad at all and if you’re against Nighthaunt or Chaos obviously their threat rises considerably . That’s the only use I’ve been able to find for them though. Rarely take them. Tremendously weird unit size.

I like Judicators because they can cap and still contribute. Not tested it but I imagine if you just want a missile platform 2 ballista and an ordinator at only 20 points more is probably superior to 2 units of Judicators, albeit not as flexible.

[Mark Williams]

I use castigators to either fill 80 points or to get another unit into scions (usually both). They actually can be useful in certain situations where rend is necessary to get rid of an annoying target... beyond that however, I think they are a pretty useless unit and very underwhelming... I’ve only ever taken 1 unit in a list, but I have 2 painted because I actually really like the models.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Just considering the average shooting damage per point roughly, hunter is the worst in stormcast and castigator/judicastor are just slightly better.

[Nos]

2 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I use castigators to either fill 80 points or to get another unit into scions (usually both). They actually can be useful in certain situations where rend is necessary to get rid of an annoying target... beyond that however, I think they are a pretty useless unit and very underwhelming... I’ve only ever taken 1 unit in a list, but I have 2 painted because I actually really like the models.

Aye The castigator three pack with mystery Gryph hound are superb models

Heres another weird thing, they get two attacks in combat vs Judicators one. Somehow belting someone in the face with a crossbow is more proficient than stabbing them with a Gladius.

[azoxystrobin]

2 hours ago, Nos said:

Aye The castigator three pack with mystery Gryph hound are superb models

Heres another weird thing, they get two attacks in combat vs Judicators one. Somehow belting someone in the face with a crossbow is more proficient than stabbing them with a Gladius.

Ah yes funny that little detail, it's almost like GW wanted them to be better than Judicators, again, plausibly so they would sell.
It looks like they fall short of the mark, Judicators have range and more shots thanks to the prime with the special lightning bow.

However another thing to note is that Castigators are 3 models for 80 points, so 6 for 160points. While Judicators are 5 for 140. So Castigators are actually a tiny bit cheaper. This is something that the general's handbook could easily fix by reducing the price of Castigators and/or increasing the price of Judicators.
I don't think GW make rules solely dependent on what they want to sell, but I think it does come into the equation.

What I would really like is if Castigators could attach a free Gryph hound, like Lord Castellans. Would that make them any better? Not particularly, maybe a bit because of the warning cry ability if the case ever happens. But a Gryph hound, even a free one doesn't really make Castigators better at shooting, they would need to gain range and do more damage per hit to make them better than Judicators and things are only ever considered for being in a list when it's the most efficient thing. 
However it would be thematic for Stormcast to have more Gryph hounds around (and players won't pay points for gryph hounds, because they aren't the most efficient unit in their category)
 

[XReN]

39 minutes ago, azoxystrobin said:

What I would really like is if Castigators could attach a free Gryph hound, like Lord Castellans. Would that make them any better? Not particularly, maybe a bit because of the warning cry ability if the case ever happens.

That would be HUGE, since it's additional unit you get on the table so you could get more units Scioned
 

[XReN]

I'm going to try castigators once I get back to SCE from FEC, I guess I'll take them instead of judicators (since I sometimes have more battleline than just minimum) and look if their versatility will pay off

[Nos]

2 hours ago, azoxystrobin said:

Ah yes funny that little detail, it's almost like GW wanted them to be better than Judicators, again, plausibly so they would sell.
It looks like they fall short of the mark, Judicators have range and more shots thanks to the prime with the special lightning bow.

However another thing to note is that Castigators are 3 models for 80 points, so 6 for 160points. While Judicators are 5 for 140. So Castigators are actually a tiny bit cheaper. This is something that the general's handbook could easily fix by reducing the price of Castigators and/or increasing the price of Judicators.
I don't think GW make rules solely dependent on what they want to sell, but I think it does come into the equation.

What I would really like is if Castigators could attach a free Gryph hound, like Lord Castellans. Would that make them any better? Not particularly, maybe a bit because of the warning cry ability if the case ever happens. But a Gryph hound, even a free one doesn't really make Castigators better at shooting, they would need to gain range and do more damage per hit to make them better than Judicators and things are only ever considered for being in a list when it's the most efficient thing. 
However it would be thematic for Stormcast to have more Gryph hounds around (and players won't pay points for gryph hounds, because they aren't the most efficient unit in their category)
 

Judicators are 160 so again, it’s really the Prime and the range (and I guess Battleline) that you’re paying for otherwise Castigators are straight up better. 

[Mark Williams]

Re: the "free" gryph hound giving you an extra scions drop. I asked if I could do this at the last tournament I went to, and was denied. I was told essentially that I would not be able to do it unless it was specifically FAQed. I'm fine with that judgement, but I just thought I'd mention it in case people here get an idea like it's common practice and commonly accepted. In my region at least - it's not.

As for 6 castigators being the price of 5 judicators. I agree that they may actually be a decent unit in that category - the problem is that judicators count as battle line, and if it weren't for that I wouldn't generally be taking them OR castigators. The fact that castigators can't count as battle-line nixes the idea of using more of them for me. I only take judicators in the first place because I have to put something in that battleline spot and, I can include them in my overall tactic. But if that battle line restriction was lifted, I doubt I'd ever take them, as the thing I do with judicators, I can do a bit better with other units.

[XReN]

6 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Re: the "free" gryph hound giving you an extra scions drop. I asked if I could do this at the last tournament I went to, and was denied. I was told essentially that I would not be able to do it unless it was specifically FAQed. I'm fine with that judgement, but I just thought I'd mention it in case people here get an idea like it's common practice and commonly accepted. In my region at least - it's not.

Well that's bad judgement right there if ever saw one

[Lucur]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

Well that's bad judgement right there if ever saw one

I'd argue it's not. In the warscroll of the Castellant it says you can set up the gryphhound, and if you do, you do so immediately, kind of during the Castellants drop.

Then again i may be biased from certain 40k units, where the models of squadrons drop as one unit but are treated as seperate, individual units for all other purposes afterwards.

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, Lucur said:

I'd argue it's not. In the warscroll of the Castellant it says you can set up the gryphhound, and if you do, you do so immediately, kind of during the Castellants drop.

Then again i may be biased from certain 40k units, where the models of squadrons drop as one unit but are treated as seperate, individual units for all other purposes afterwards.

Now check out the wording on Scions, it clearly says number of UNITS on the table, not drops, if that was drops, than setting , let's say, thunderhead brotherhood on the table, all 5 units from it would have allowed you one, only ONE unit set up as scions

[MrRoff]

Just gonna put this here, don't mind me:

[Lucur]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

Now check out the wording on Scions, it clearly says number of UNITS on the table, not drops, if that was drops, than setting , let's say, thunderhead brotherhood on the table, all 5 units from it would have allowed you one, only ONE unit set up as scions

I stand corrected, good to know!

[XReN]

1 hour ago, MrRoff said:

Just gonna put this here, don't mind me:

Seems Elias got through some scary ****** lately

[PJetski]

Re: Castigators

I think their main problem is that they don't have a niche. They are the least cost effective shooting in our army, and Rend-2 shooting is also provided by the Ballista. Even at 60 points they would still be one of the worst shooting options we currently have.

Here are the changes I would propose:

Since they are firing grenades it would make sense for them to be the anti-horde shooters.

• Burst of Celestial Energy: Each time you make a successful hit roll with a Thunderhead Greatbow while targeting a unit with 5 or more models, it explodes and causes D3 hits instead. If you target a unit with 10 or more models, it causes D6 hits instead.
• Castigator Aetheric Channeling: At the start of the shooting phase you can choose one of these effects: increase the Rend to -2, or you can re-roll the dice to determine the number of hits from Burst of Celestial Energy.

With these abilities the Castigators would still be a poor choice for shooting single models but they would become a good choice for shooting most battleline, and the most efficient unit we have when shooting a unit with 10+ models. 

[stato]

17 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Re: Castigators

I think their main problem is that they don't have a niche. They are the least cost effective shooting in our army, and Rend-2 shooting is also provided by the Ballista. Even at 60 points they would still be one of the worst shooting options we currently have.

Here are the changes I would propose:

Since they are firing grenades it would make sense for them to be the anti-horde shooters.

• Burst of Celestial Energy: Each time you make a successful hit roll with a Thunderhead Greatbow while targeting a unit with 5 or more models, it explodes and causes D3 hits instead. If you target a unit with 10 or more models, it causes D6 hits instead.
• Castigator Aetheric Channeling: At the start of the shooting phase you can choose one of these effects: increase the Rend to -2, or you can re-roll the dice to determine the number of hits from Burst of Celestial Energy.

With these abilities the Castigators would still be a poor choice for shooting single models but they would become a good choice for shooting most battleline, and the most efficient unit we have when shooting a unit with 10+ models. 

Honestly for me they dont need a bonus, not everything has to be great at all levels. Given players only have them from either boxed-game or ETB set they will/should never be a great unit, but filler.  Right now they struggle to be a filler option, I think giving them 'battleline-if XX general' with no other change would be sufficient, if what? maybe Incantor, or Ordinator, or Exorcist.  Not great choices as general that is true, but i think it give just enough flexibility for castigators to get use in smaller games while possibly providing a bit more option at larger sized games for those who want to try something different.

Edited January 28, 2019 by stato

[Bradipo322]

25 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Re: Castigators

I think their main problem is that they don't have a niche. They are the least cost effective shooting in our army, and Rend-2 shooting is also provided by the Ballista. Even at 60 points they would still be one of the worst shooting options we currently have.

Here are the changes I would propose:

Since they are firing grenades it would make sense for them to be the anti-horde shooters.

• Burst of Celestial Energy: Each time you make a successful hit roll with a Thunderhead Greatbow while targeting a unit with 5 or more models, it explodes and causes D3 hits instead. If you target a unit with 10 or more models, it causes D6 hits instead.
• Castigator Aetheric Channeling: At the start of the shooting phase you can choose one of these effects: increase the Rend to -2, or you can re-roll the dice to determine the number of hits from Burst of Celestial Energy.

With these abilities the Castigators would still be a poor choice for shooting single models but they would become a good choice for shooting most battleline, and the most efficient unit we have when shooting a unit with 10+ models. 

Exploding hits on hordes would make them a lot better, still not an auto-include but I would play them.

One of my friends who plays LoN told me that, given the lore behind the Castigators, he expected them to have exploding weapons.

[Requizen]

4-1 with Anvils this weekend! Nagash with Grimghasts is still pretty terrifying, my only loss but also one I could have won if I played it out differently. Wins against Slaves to Darkness, Nighthaunt (60 Grimghasts!), Kharadron Overlords (more shooting than me), and Flesh Eater Courts. 

Few armies can stand up to the pure shooting power the Longstrikes can put out, but it is extremely weak to Alphas itself. When the Longstrikes and/or 10 man Evos get debuffed or worse, outright killed, the whole thing falls apart. Luckily you can keep the Longstrikes off the table to block some of that, but there's plenty of lists that it won't quite work against. I think I can carry it to a 5-0 if I don't panic as soon as I see Nagash or Arkhan across the table, which has been my biggest weakness  

Also noteworthy - multiple people asking me this weekend why I'm not bringing Gavriel. And the hipster in me says, "That's exactly why".

[rosa]

12 minutes ago, Requizen said:

4-1 with Anvils this weekend! Nagash with Grimghasts is still pretty terrifying, my only loss but also one I could have won if I played it out differently. Wins against Slaves to Darkness, Nighthaunt (60 Grimghasts!), Kharadron Overlords (more shooting than me), and Flesh Eater Courts. 

Few armies can stand up to the pure shooting power the Longstrikes can put out, but it is extremely weak to Alphas itself. When the Longstrikes and/or 10 man Evos get debuffed or worse, outright killed, the whole thing falls apart. Luckily you can keep the Longstrikes off the table to block some of that, but there's plenty of lists that it won't quite work against. I think I can carry it to a 5-0 if I don't panic as soon as I see Nagash or Arkhan across the table, which has been my biggest weakness  

Also noteworthy - multiple people asking me this weekend why I'm not bringing Gavriel. And the hipster in me says, "That's exactly why".

Do you mind to share the list?

Sounds interesting...

Edited January 28, 2019 by rosa
Typo

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, rosa said:

Do you mind to share the list?

Sounds interesting...

Sure! I post it here every so often, hasn't changed much in the past ~6-8 months.

Stormhost - Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Lord Castellant (General, Deathly Aura)
Knight Azyros (Soulthief)
Lord Relictor (Translocation)
Knight Heraldor

Liberators x5
Liberators x5
Liberators x5

Evocators x10 (Grandstaves)
Evocators x5 (Swords and Staves)
Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes x9
Aetherwings x3
Skinks x10

1950/2000 (Extra CP)

Basic plan is to get the Longstrikes firing multiple times per turn, obviously. If you can get the Evos to pile in an extra time, they'll generally kill whatever they're touching. The rest of the list is keeping the Longstrikes alive, taking objectives, etc. You end up playing it far back quite a bit early, which means you'll almost never sweep on points early on, but by the time T3 rolls around you should have killed all the support pieces and murderized something with the big Evo unit, freeing you up to score more easily.

I've considered a couple changes.
-Not sure if the extra CP is super necessary, I usually use it to reroll an Evo charge or get them a 6 to run with the Heraldor Run + Charge. Which is super useful, but 50 points could really change the list, even if it's just 3 more birds for more screening/scoring.
-I really want a Wizard in there. An Incantor to guarantee shut down an important spell could change the game against Nagash/Alarielle/Arkhan/etc, and using the Realm spells could be quite powerful as well, but I'm not sure what to drop for it. I think all the Heroes are necessary support pieces.
-Not sure about the 5 man Evo unit. Taking it out removes a lot of melee threat from the list, but they're not super impactful by themselves. That said, if I can turn those points into more screening/scoring units, it could be better for the battleplan altogether.

I've got a smaller GT coming up next month and then Adepticon in March. Hoping to get some good mileage out of these guys!

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Bradipo322 said:

Exploding hits on hordes would make them a lot better, still not an auto-include but I would play them.

One of my friends who plays LoN told me that, given the lore behind the Castigators, he expected them to have exploding weapons.

They do explode, which is why it’s D3 on 6’s against the relevant matchups. It’s just their ammo is designed for Nighthaunt and Demons. 

SC currently have more missile options than other armies have units.

Venator

Judicators, 2 types 

Prosecutors, multiple types

Raptors, 2 types 

Hunters

Ballista

Ordinators

And like 4 shooty Battalions to make thenm shoot better 

Really don’t need everything to be great for every purpose. Vs Nighthaunt and Chaos Castigators pack a punch, that’s what they’re explicitly designed for. Similar to the Exorcist. Situational options.  

[Twh30]

14 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Sure! I post it here every so often, hasn't changed much in the past ~6-8 months.

Stormhost - Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Lord Castellant (General, Deathly Aura)
Knight Azyros (Soulthief)
Lord Relictor (Translocation)
Knight Heraldor

Liberators x5
Liberators x5
Liberators x5

Evocators x10 (Grandstaves)
Evocators x5 (Swords and Staves)
Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes x9
Aetherwings x3
Skinks x10

1950/2000 (Extra CP)

Basic plan is to get the Longstrikes firing multiple times per turn, obviously. If you can get the Evos to pile in an extra time, they'll generally kill whatever they're touching. The rest of the list is keeping the Longstrikes alive, taking objectives, etc. You end up playing it far back quite a bit early, which means you'll almost never sweep on points early on, but by the time T3 rolls around you should have killed all the support pieces and murderized something with the big Evo unit, freeing you up to score more easily.

I've considered a couple changes.
-Not sure if the extra CP is super necessary, I usually use it to reroll an Evo charge or get them a 6 to run with the Heraldor Run + Charge. Which is super useful, but 50 points could really change the list, even if it's just 3 more birds for more screening/scoring.
-I really want a Wizard in there. An Incantor to guarantee shut down an important spell could change the game against Nagash/Alarielle/Arkhan/etc, and using the Realm spells could be quite powerful as well, but I'm not sure what to drop for it. I think all the Heroes are necessary support pieces.
-Not sure about the 5 man Evo unit. Taking it out removes a lot of melee threat from the list, but they're not super impactful by themselves. That said, if I can turn those points into more screening/scoring units, it could be better for the battleplan altogether.

I've got a smaller GT coming up next month and then Adepticon in March. Hoping to get some good mileage out of these guys!

Mayb option for alternative to 5 evos could be 10 sequiturs ?

[Nos]

17 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Sure! I post it here every so often, hasn't changed much in the past ~6-8 months.

Stormhost - Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Lord Castellant (General, Deathly Aura)
Knight Azyros (Soulthief)
Lord Relictor (Translocation)
Knight Heraldor

Liberators x5
Liberators x5
Liberators x5

Evocators x10 (Grandstaves)
Evocators x5 (Swords and Staves)
Vanguard Raptors with Longstrikes x9
Aetherwings x3
Skinks x10

1950/2000 (Extra CP)

Basic plan is to get the Longstrikes firing multiple times per turn, obviously. If you can get the Evos to pile in an extra time, they'll generally kill whatever they're touching. The rest of the list is keeping the Longstrikes alive, taking objectives, etc. You end up playing it far back quite a bit early, which means you'll almost never sweep on points early on, but by the time T3 rolls around you should have killed all the support pieces and murderized something with the big Evo unit, freeing you up to score more easily.

I've considered a couple changes.
-Not sure if the extra CP is super necessary, I usually use it to reroll an Evo charge or get them a 6 to run with the Heraldor Run + Charge. Which is super useful, but 50 points could really change the list, even if it's just 3 more birds for more screening/scoring.
-I really want a Wizard in there. An Incantor to guarantee shut down an important spell could change the game against Nagash/Alarielle/Arkhan/etc, and using the Realm spells could be quite powerful as well, but I'm not sure what to drop for it. I think all the Heroes are necessary support pieces.
-Not sure about the 5 man Evo unit. Taking it out removes a lot of melee threat from the list, but they're not super impactful by themselves. That said, if I can turn those points into more screening/scoring units, it could be better for the battleplan altogether.

I've got a smaller GT coming up next month and then Adepticon in March. Hoping to get some good mileage out of these guys!

Sure you’ll have thought this through but If you were thinking about dropping the Evos and decided against the CP then you’ve got 250 for ten Sequitors who will definitely do work either as unit or two screening options 

Really like the list, kudos on trying something different and making it work! Where does the Azyros fit in? For Re-rolls obviously but does he drop or do you move him forward to get the aura ?

Edited January 28, 2019 by Nos

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, Twh30 said:

Mayb option for alternative to 5 evos could be 10 sequiturs ?

1 minute ago, Nos said:

Sure you’ll have thought this through but If you were thinking about dropping the Evos and decided against the CP then you’ve got 250 for ten Sequitors who will definitely do work either as unit or two screening options 

Really like the list, kudos on trying something different and making it work!

Yeah it's definitely an option, especially given how meaty a 10-man unit can be, and it's still quite punchy. The only downside is that losing a Wizard unit misses out on a dispel, which isn't a huge deal, but it also makes me weaker on Places of Arcane Power and Relocation Orb, which are pretty popular tournament missions. Those are already really matchup dependent (I've faced Nagash on them twice, try shifting him off an Objective before he tables you 😕 ), so idk how losing that extra scoring possibility will affect overall performance.

It's worth testing, though. I think there's a lot of changes possibly
- Keep the list the same, but swap the Castellant for an Incantor, trading defensive power and CP for extra MWs and the dispel scroll
- Drop the Evocators for Incantor + 10 Skinks, getting more bodies and similar Wizard power, but losing punch and defense

I'm also sure there's some way to trade the Castellant for an Arcanum and get Sequitors in there, but I'm not sure how much it changes the overall power level. All worth considering.