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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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On 10/5/2018 at 9:51 AM, Cronman said:

Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Lord-Arcanum on foot-180.             General, spell: stormcaller, artifact: Staff of Focus

Lord-Relictor- 100.                               Prayer: Translocation

Lord-Castellent- 100.                          Artifact- storm rage blade

20 Sequitors- 400

20 Sequitors- 400

5 Liberators- 100

5 Evocators- 200.                                   Spell: Celestial blades

3 Evocators on Dracoline-300.       2 with granstaff, Spell: Celestial blades

Warscroll Battalion- Cleansing phalanx- 120

Endless spell: everblaze comet- 100

 

So I tried this list out this weekend against my buddy using my LoN with the Skellie Pope himself as the leader, 2 40 blocks of skeletons, a unit of morgahst, Vampire Lord, Necromancer, and a wight king.  Let me say  this list did some work, I took out Nagash in the first combat in round 2 with just 9 sequitors great weapons with the extra attack given by the celestial Vindicators, and that was after he unbound empower and celestial blades, I'm thinking of taking out the comet and subbing in the Lord-arcanum on graph charger instead of on foot to make empower auto cast and be unbindable. 

What do you guys think?

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6 hours ago, Cronman said:

So I tried this list out this weekend against my buddy using my LoN with the Skellie Pope himself as the leader, 2 40 blocks of skeletons, a unit of morgahst, Vampire Lord, Necromancer, and a wight king.  Let me say  this list did some work, I took out Nagash in the first combat in round 2 with just 9 sequitors great weapons with the extra attack given by the celestial Vindicators, and that was after he unbound empower and celestial blades, I'm thinking of taking out the comet and subbing in the Lord-arcanum on graph charger instead of on foot to make empower auto cast and be unbindable. 

What do you guys think?

in my experience making that autocast empower ability happen is really great. However the comet usually gives me something stormcast lack, a fast response board control element. 

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7 hours ago, Black Blade said:

in my experience making that autocast empower ability happen is really great. However the comet usually gives me something stormcast lack, a fast response board control element. 

Yeah the comet was pretty effective with the staff of focus it put 4 wounds on the vampire lord and necro, 2 (would have been 3 but his ability to halve dmg) wounds on the wight king and 3 on the morgahst then turn 3 I used storm caller and that finished all his heroes leaving just the skellies left and he only took out 1 dracoline and 6 sequitors by that point, it was pretty good but that was just in a garage hammer setting I would like to see how this runs in a tourny

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20 hours ago, Requizen said:

Rules question. How does the Longstrike's extra range ability work with Anvils of the Heldenhammer?

So you use the Ability in the Hero Phase. It did not move in this turn's Movement Phase... yet, because it didn't happen yet. So, I get 6" extra? RAW would say yes, but it's clearly not written with this in mind.

RAW the effect only activates if you didn't move in the movement phase in that same turn. Since you haven't had a movement phase yet when you use the Anvils CA then you wouldn't be able to add 6" to your range. This is the way I would play it until they release an FAQ/errata.

It's poorly worded, that's for sure. It should be something like "At the start of the shooting phase, if this unit didn't move in the movement phase this turn you can add 6" to the Range characteristics". If they intended it to be active all the time and "turn off" when you move then it would be worded differently.

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1 hour ago, PJetski said:

RAW the effect only activates if you didn't move in the movement phase in that same turn. Since you haven't had a movement phase yet when you use the Anvils CA then you wouldn't be able to add 6" to your range. This is the way I would play it until they release an FAQ/errata.

It's poorly worded, that's for sure. It should be something like "At the start of the shooting phase, if this unit didn't move in the movement phase this turn you can add 6" to the Range characteristics". If they intended it to be active all the time and "turn off" when you move then it would be worded differently.

Yeah I'm gonna assume it doesn't work that way, but I thought I'd ask since the RAW is screwy. Either way, Anvils Longstrikes are pretty good, it's basically Aetherstrike without the retaliatory shooting, but with a bit more build flexibility. And Scions is a game changer for Longstrike focused gameplay, since you can reliably keep some shooters off the board to defend against Alphas - putting your big Aetherstrike unit off the table was always a gamble on the old Scions roll.

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What I like most about Anvilstrike is that the core of the list, 9-12 Longstrikes is only 540-720 points. Although it does  generally less damage since you don't have the retaliation shooting, it's a much lower point cost investment, so unlike Aetherstrike you don't need to dedicate your entire list to defending those Longstrikes. This is fortunate since you give up Staunch Defender to use the Anvils CA.

What do we fill the rest of the list with? Battleline, support heroes (Azyros, Castellant, Relictor, Incantor)? Do we balance the melee/shooting with some fast melee units like Dracoths or do we go all-in on shooting by adding ballistas and an everblaze comet, with aetherwings to cover flanks?

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56 minutes ago, PJetski said:

What I like most about Anvilstrike is that the core of the list, 9-12 Longstrikes is only 540-720 points. Although it does  generally less damage since you don't have the retaliation shooting, it's a much lower point cost investment, so unlike Aetherstrike you don't need to dedicate your entire list to defending those Longstrikes. This is fortunate since you give up Staunch Defender to use the Anvils CA.

What do we fill the rest of the list with? Battleline, support heroes (Azyros, Castellant, Relictor, Incantor)? Do we balance the melee/shooting with some fast melee units like Dracoths or do we go all-in on shooting by adding ballistas and an everblaze comet, with aetherwings to cover flanks?

Castellant
Heraldor

Libs
Libs
Libs

Evos x10
Longstrikes x9

Is 1440 points core, fill with more bodies, Birds, and Heroes. Move in to kill the Longstrikes, and get countercharged by the Evos. Focus on the Evos (who are rocking the Lantern, obviously), and get cut down by the Longstrikes. If the opponent gets in with the Evos and doesn't kill them, using the Anvils CA on Evos is nuts. Maybe something like:

Castellant - General, Deathly Aura
Heraldor
Azyros - Soulthief

Liberators
Liberators
Liberators

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Evos x10
Longstrikes x9
Skinks
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

2000/2000

Maybe drop 1 unit of Aetherwings if you want an extra CP, but it's not necessary. It could lose to hard Alpha shooting like KO dropping in a boat, but even that's not that threatening since you can screen or just use Scions to spread out across the board. 

This is actually pretty interesting. 

Edit: I think you have enough shooting power in the Longstrikes to swap 2 Ballistas for another 5 Evos. A couple variations.

Edited by Requizen
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Why the heraldor? Just for his shooting phase ability?

If we have Aetherwings blocking charges then I don't think we need the Evocators as an anti-melee deterrent. I think I would rather use 12x Longstrike and 5x Evocator instead of 9x + 10x, since 12 Longstrikes should do about the same damage as 10x Evocators with a command point even in melee (expected 8@Rend2 vs 15@Rend0) but you also get 2-4 more average per command point. The evocators are too slow to be of any use except screening the Longstrikes and since they are only buffing themselves with Empower it feels like an unnecessary points dump to bring 10. 

Taking that many evocators is effectively giving up the objectives, so I think I would rather try taking some Hurricanes to reduce charges and give more options for Aetherwing positioning, an incantor for dispel scroll (& more charge disruption), and an Everblaze Comet for zone control.

Bringing an Arcanum for Cycle and battleline Sequitors could open up some interesting options. 

100 Azyros
100 Castellant
240 Arcanum on GC
140 Incantor
360 2x5 Lib + Jud
120 Hurricanes
720 12x Longstrike
Everblaze Comet
2x3 Aetherwing
Quicksilver Swords

2000/2000 

Edited by PJetski
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You kinda answered your own question in there. Evocators are too slow to participate... unless you take a Heraldor and let them Run + Charge, at which point they go up to 8" move on average, which is pretty solid (especially if they take Speed of Lightning as their spell). Castellant/Heraldor/Evos combo has been a huge power spike in my current lists, so I'm pretty happy to use it here too. Evos will kill anything in midtable, so while Aetherwings and Hurricanes are a more economical way to slow down  melee units, the Evos will straight up kill things that get too close.

Not to mention it splits your threat up, all eggs in Longstrikes means if you go against something hard anti-shooting, you're kinda SOL. Plenty of things have anti-shooting: Idoneth, Sylvaneth (trees block line of sight), DoK (Khailebron Temple is board -1 to shooting), Mirrorshield Stardrake (though many people go Ignax now), KO (dropping in and do a lot of Alpha damage before the Longstrikes can shoot anything), Doppleganger Cloak, multiple -hit relics in Malign Sorcery, etc. Evos give you a melee punch that can threaten things that otherwise would ignore or mitigate your shooting. While multiple Longstrike shooting can hopefully punch through, I'd rather not rely on it. 

Not to say there's anything wrong with your version, it looks solid. Just giving reasonings for my setup. You're right, it does suffer at contesting objectives for sure, but that was always a weakness of Aetherstrike, and I won a lot of games despite that. Still, potentially dropping Ballistas for more bodies (Skinks, Judicators, or otherwise) is not a bad idea. 

If you're running Castellant and Arcanum to keep the Longstrikes up, you could also consider adding a Lifeswarm. 2/3 chance to add Longstrikes back to the unit if they lose any (even better on Ghyran). 

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22 minutes ago, Requizen said:

You kinda answered your own question in there. Evocators are too slow to participate... unless you take a Heraldor and let them Run + Charge, at which point they go up to 8" move on average, which is pretty solid (especially if they take Speed of Lightning as their spell). Castellant/Heraldor/Evos combo has been a huge power spike in my current lists, so I'm pretty happy to use it here too. Evos will kill anything in midtable, so while Aetherwings and Hurricanes are a more economical way to slow down  melee units, the Evos will straight up kill things that get too close.

Not to mention it splits your threat up, all eggs in Longstrikes means if you go against something hard anti-shooting, you're kinda SOL. Plenty of things have anti-shooting: Idoneth, Sylvaneth (trees block line of sight), DoK (Khailebron Temple is board -1 to shooting), Mirrorshield Stardrake (though many people go Ignax now), KO (dropping in and do a lot of Alpha damage before the Longstrikes can shoot anything), Doppleganger Cloak, multiple -hit relics in Malign Sorcery, etc. Evos give you a melee punch that can threaten things that otherwise would ignore or mitigate your shooting. While multiple Longstrike shooting can hopefully punch through, I'd rather not rely on it. 

Not to say there's anything wrong with your version, it looks solid. Just giving reasonings for my setup. You're right, it does suffer at contesting objectives for sure, but that was always a weakness of Aetherstrike, and I won a lot of games despite that. Still, potentially dropping Ballistas for more bodies (Skinks, Judicators, or otherwise) is not a bad idea. 

If you're running Castellant and Arcanum to keep the Longstrikes up, you could also consider adding a Lifeswarm. 2/3 chance to add Longstrikes back to the unit if they lose any (even better on Ghyran). 

Your reasoning seems fine. Evocators are really powerful right now and if you ever get a hero phase with them in melee you're going to be very glad you brought them. My primary concern is with reliability. 

Having multiple threats is definitely preferable to going all-in on a single one, especially since many of the defensive tools in this new Aetherstrike are not available any more (Staunch Defender, retaliation fire, Protector -1hit vs shooting). I just can't find the right kind of threat to put down on the table... maybe 1x4 Fulminators?

I considered the Lifeswarm but 60 points for a spell that might be worthless in a matchup doesn't seem worthwhile. I would rather prevent the damage before it gets there with a dispel scroll.

Edited by PJetski
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13 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Your reasoning seems fine. Evocators are really powerful right now and if you ever get a hero phase with them in melee you're going to be very glad you brought them. My primary concern is with reliability. 

Having multiple threats is definitely preferable to going all-in on a single one, especially since many of the defensive tools in this new Aetherstrike are not available any more (Staunch Defender, retaliation fire, Protector -1hit vs shooting). I just can't find the right kind of threat to put down on the table... maybe 1x4 Fulminators?

I considered the Lifeswarm but 60 points for a spell that might be worthless in a matchup doesn't seem worthwhile. I would rather prevent the damage before it gets there with a dispel scroll.

A Fulmi wall seems reasonable too. Pretty solid solo unit, with the option to slap the Lantern on them for giggles. Nice combo with LAoGC as well, for Cycle and Healing. Worth consideration. Protectors might be a viable swap since they still give out the -1 hit bonus, but they're even slower than Evos and not as killy. Honestly to me it's Evos, Fulminators, or just bodies (Skinks! So many Skinks!).

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1 minute ago, Requizen said:

A Fulmi wall seems reasonable too. Pretty solid solo unit, with the option to slap the Lantern on them for giggles. Nice combo with LAoGC as well, for Cycle and Healing. Worth consideration. Protectors might be a viable swap since they still give out the -1 hit bonus, but they're even slower than Evos and not as killy. Honestly to me it's Evos, Fulminators, or just bodies (Skinks! So many Skinks!).

Protectors only have -1 on themselves. They give nearby units cover now, which is worse since many shooting armies have "hit6+ mortal wound" type abilities.

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1 minute ago, PJetski said:

Protectors only have -1 on themselves. They give nearby units cover now, which is worse since many shooting armies have "hit6+ mortal wound" type abilities.

Oh real? I missed that. So that sucks. Kind of a cool combo if you're footslogging Ballistas, I guess, since they'll be 2+ behind the Protectors.... nope, still bad.

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2 hours ago, PJetski said:

100 Azyros
100 Castellant
240 Arcanum on GC
140 Incantor
360 2x5 Lib + Jud
120 Hurricanes
720 12x Longstrike
Everblaze Comet
2x3 Aetherwing
Quicksilver Swords

2000/2000 

Assuming "Hurricanes" are Vanguard Raptors w/Hurricane Crossbows, aren't they 140? Could just drop the Quicksilver to squeeze em in I suppose. 

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Protectors only have -1 on themselves. They give nearby units cover now, which is worse since many shooting armies have "hit6+ mortal wound" type abilities.

i find it as good as before. It much easier to make it work (affect people 6" around them,) and against everything else than the "hit6 = mortal wound", it's way better than before. You heroes are automatically 2+ save against shooting with it.

I would like to point to that pretty much every "hit 6 = XXX" are or will become unmodified roll, so the previous version would do nothing against those

Edited by ledha
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3 hours ago, Requizen said:

 

Not to mention it splits your threat up, all eggs in Longstrikes means if you go against something hard anti-shooting, you're kinda SOL. Plenty of things have anti-shooting: Idoneth, Sylvaneth (trees block line of sight), DoK (Khailebron Temple is board -1 to shooting), Mirrorshield Stardrake (though many people go Ignax now), KO (dropping in and do a lot of Alpha damage before the Longstrikes can shoot anything), Doppleganger Cloak, multiple -hit relics in Malign Sorcery, etc. Evos give you a melee punch that can threaten things that otherwise would ignore or mitigate your shooting. While multiple Longstrike shooting can hopefully punch through, I'd rather not rely on it. 

 

I may be wrong, but doppelganger cloak work only in melee and won't prevent the monster to be killed by a double-tap from the longstrike

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12 minutes ago, ledha said:

i find it as good as before. It much easier to make it work (affect people 6" around them,) and against everything else than the "hit6 = mortal wound", it's way better than before. You heroes are automatically 2+ save against shooting with it.

I would like to point to that pretty much every "hit 6 = XXX" are or will become unmodified roll, so the previous version would do nothing against those

It seems like they will eventually  swap all those abilities, but it's going to take them a very long time. Short of printing new Grand Alliance books, you can expect that mechanic to be in the game for the foreseeable future. There's also the Malign Sorcery artifacts that active on 6+ effects...

Protectors are more or less better than they were before, but in the case of Aetherstrike it seems to be worse.

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1 hour ago, Murdoc said:

I just bought a Sequitor box.

Are the tempest blades the overall best choice in every situation over the mauls?

 

Pretty much. without modifiers the swords do 1 wound on average vs .88 for the mauls. with a -1 wound debuff they are both .66.

With a +1 wound buff the swords pull further ahead - 1.33 vs 1.11.

That's all before saves of course, but neither have any rend.

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Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
- General
- Mount Trait: Keen-clawed
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1200 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 74

 


Thinking about this list for the next tournament.  What do you guys think?

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47 minutes ago, Nizrah said:
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
- General
- Mount Trait: Keen-clawed
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1200 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 74

Disclaimer: The advice I'll give assumes you are looking to win the tournament. If the tournament is just for fun or has soft-scores, then that might change the advice.

I wonder how big the table is for this size of a tournament. Are you all going to be fighting on 4x4'? Or is this going to be played on a standard 4x6'? Those evocators are going to have to cover a LOT of ground if its a full sized table.

You've invested a significant amount of points (33%) into the big evocator unit, but your list doesn't have any single-target buffs that I can see.  What is the downside to splitting up the evocators into 2x5?  Aside from the tactical flexibility, thats one more dispel attempt for you for free.

Right now I'm pretty stuck on either having a heraldor or Gavriel in all of my lists. I want to be able to charge as early as possible and to be able to choose to fight first as much as possible.

You'll probably get some feedback around choosing Vandus as a general when you could have run him as a generic lord Celestant on Dracoth and then use the points savings plus your extra command point bid to include Gavriel. I'm assuming that you are more interested in building a list around Vandus so I'll keep my feedback related to that.

I have a hard time with single ballistas due to their swingy performance consistency. I love 3 with an ordinator and I often feel "let down" by a single unit. Cutting that ballista gives you enough points to add a "lord level" hero to your army.  You can make that hero the general and pick up the command trait and drop the god-forged blade on him/her.

 

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1 hour ago, Nizrah said:
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Vandus Hammerhand (280)
- General
- Mount Trait: Keen-clawed
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1200 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 74

 


Thinking about this list for the next tournament.  What do you guys think?

No need to take 5 unnecessary liberators when there are better ways to spend your points. Also Vandus is pretty underwhelming/ costs too much especially at  1250 point. If you take a generic LCoD (still think it's a bit much at this level) and drop the libs that gives you 140. Then if you consider you're 50 short thats 190. Take an Arcanum or even an Incantor with one of the 40pt endless spells. Also divide your Evocators into 2 groups of 5. We are already an elite army and have fewer pieces than the enemy so the more flexible you are the better.

Edited by Black Blade
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