Nizrah Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 2 hours ago, jhamslam said: As for the Ballista. Its bad, like we get so much out of the gunhauler compared to it. How is even Gunhulauder compared to ballista? Its have 1 shoot with d6 dmg and d6 shots with d2... VS 4 shots 3+ rr1 with powerfull -2 rend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 23 minutes ago, Nizrah said: How is even Gunhulauder compared to ballista? Its have 1 shoot with d6 dmg and d6 shots with d2... VS 4 shots 3+ rr1 with powerfull -2 rend. Cus it doesnt need an ordinator near it to be optimal. Ballista only has the slight edge in rapid fire, and even then the math on damage is very comparable to the gunhaulers. An ordinator near gunhaulers will be hitting and wounding on 2s with its long range profile. this is better than the ballistas since its d6 damage, meaning you only need to make this roll be good instead of having to roll d6 hit and then 3s to wound for each roll. But these are again separate strats in separate lists. My strat is to mostly use long range initially to know holes in opponent screens and put a gav bomb thru, your aim in the list (supposedly) was to wither them down with missile fire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 D6 dmg is so random that i wil pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 The gunhauler is good but doenst have the -2 rend. In an army where you can deepstrike ballista's at short range i dont feel like you need the gunhauler. That gunhauler is super good in tempest eye, Kharadron overlords but for Sce the ballista is way more deadly. -2 rend is everything these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, Juicy said: The gunhauler is good but doenst have the -2 rend. In an army where you can deepstrike ballista's at short range i dont feel like you need the gunhauler. That gunhauler is super good in tempest eye, Kharadron overlords but for Sce the ballista is way more deadly. -2 rend is everything these days The good thing of the gunhauler is that it offers both incredible mobility and some damage. It is of course surpassed in both aspects by other options, like ballistas for damage or Shadowstalkers for threatening objectives but I still agree that it's a very efficient package. Beyond the problems with screening and mobility, ballistas really suffer from losing the ordinator to the usual suspects which are good at hero sniping -considering that he might even be without lookout sir depending on where you have to drop the ballistas group- which makes them even more swingy + with the defensive eels having unrendable 2+ even clearing screens isn't really a done deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Marcvs said: The good thing of the gunhauler is that it offers both incredible mobility and some damage. It is of course surpassed in both aspects by other options, like ballistas for damage or Shadowstalkers for threatening objectives but I still agree that it's a very efficient package. Beyond the problems with screening and mobility, ballistas really suffer from losing the ordinator to the usual suspects which are good at hero sniping -considering that he might even be without lookout sir depending on where you have to drop the ballistas group- which makes them even more swingy + with the defensive eels having unrendable 2+ even clearing screens isn't really a done deal have to agree on this. Not sure if the incoming pointchange would matter at this point. We really need an overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 19 hours ago, Juicy said: oke but to advice playing a whole other battalion with a lot of differant units in it is a bit wierd. Its like playing another army because none of the poster his units are on the skyborne slayers format. And i dont believe skyborne slayers would beat giants that easy. Dok can be done but is not easy. yeah that's definitely a huge problem with Stormcast; too many units means you'll inevitably end up in one corner without much wiggle room unless you can shell out $$. and its something that requires waiting on a new book to even try fixing but idk like... people share tournament stories and it turns into tactics discussion because this is the forum for exactly that. it's just unfortunate that the army we picked is the one that has the largest amount of substitutions and allies to take from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizrah Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 The sad moment is becouse I picked SCE because I finally wanted to have army that was loved by GW. ( I played csm in 40k so...) HOW WRONG I WAS... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) Ballistae or Gunhaulers? Why not both? Stormkeep - Astral Templars Steam Tank with Commander - Staunch Defender, Mirror Shield Steam Tank with Commander Lord-Ordinator Knight-Azyros 3x5 Liberators 1x3 Gyrocopter 3x1 Grundstok Gunhauler 4x1 Celestar Ballista 1980/2000 15 units (3 COS), 390/400 ally points Edited January 12, 2021 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, PJetski said: Ballistae or Gunhaulers? Why not both? Stormkeep - Astral Templars Steam Tank with Commander - Staunch Defender, Mirror Shield Steam Tank with Commander Lord-Ordinator Knight-Azyros 3x5 Liberators 1x3 Gyrocopter 3x1 Grundstok Gunhauler 4x1 Celestar Ballista 1980/2000 15 units (3 COS), 390/400 ally points Cool theme, but the first problem i see is not being able to put these ballista in the sky really hurts them. Almost to the point of not taking them. But love the theme;) And its possible that the staunch trick is going to be in the FAQ. I hope it wont but its possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Juicy said: Cool theme, but the first problem i see is not being able to put these ballista in the sky really hurts them. Almost to the point of not taking them. But love the theme;) And its possible that the staunch trick is going to be in the FAQ. I hope it wont but its possible You could avoid taking staunch (after all, not many units in that list will really benefit from it), and keep the astral templars command trait on the ordinator to have the ballistas block move 6" pre-game. In addition to their movement, this gives 27" threat range for the multishot. Still not sure how to play objectives with that list 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Nizrah said: The sad moment is becouse I picked SCE because I finally wanted to have army that was loved by GW. ( I played csm in 40k so...) HOW WRONG I WAS... i feel you, i played bretonnia since 5th al the way up to 8th. It was an uphill battle every time. The one thing i had going for me on tournaments is that i was the only bretonnia player at our tournament scene and most people never played them so made mistakes where i could play into. But damn the love was zero i got from GW. Now with SCE i really hope we dont get another chamber and sigmar model or other bullsjit. I just want our book the be more balanced around the differant chambers. Fix the battalions and make battalions worth investing into. Stay strong to the theme of the chambers and let specific characters buff chamber units. Then we got a book with a lot of options with a lot of themes going on. With this book there is put zero effort into the oldschool models/battalions and the newer battalions and sacrosant units dont really work well together or getting outclassed by other stuff. Morathi book was a start but damn i still have to win my first game with a stormkeep patrol battalion.. 0-9 atm using differant tactics. Even my stormkeep garrisson did better. We got so much potential for a new book i just hope our new book is more about internal fixing then bringing out more stuff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Marcvs said: You could avoid taking staunch (after all, not many units in that list will really benefit from it), and keep the astral templars command trait on the ordinator to have the ballistas block move 6" pre-game. In addition to their movement, this gives 27" threat range for the multishot. Still not sure how to play objectives with that list didnt think of this but i do like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) On 1/12/2021 at 10:15 AM, Nizrah said: The sad moment is becouse I picked SCE because I finally wanted to have army that was loved by GW. ( I played csm in 40k so...) HOW WRONG I WAS... on the one hand I'm glad AOS doesn't have the Marines/Imperium problem 40k has, on the other Stormcast really...really... have not been able to keep up with 2.0's power creep. While the aesthetic, lore, and models are why I settled on Stormcast, a little rules favoritism would be nice 😅 Edited January 13, 2021 by CommissarRotke forgot "problem" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Ok, waiting for the Broken realms FAQ and winter points, this is my take on the stormkeep liberators spam. I wonder whether going 3 drops is worth it, or if I should go down to 2 and take Astral Templars (or no stormhost and cunning strategist on a veritant general), because of course outdropping the opponent is close to necessary in this army Spoiler Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of SigmarLord-Veritant (110)- Artefact: Mirrorshield - Prayer: Divine LightLord-Veritant (110)- Artefact: God-forged Blade - Prayer: Bolster FaithRunelord (90)- General - Command trait: Cunning Strategist - Prayer: Translocation - Artefact: Spellshield30 x Liberators (480)- Warhammer & Shield- 6x Grandhammers30 x Liberators (480)- Warhammer & Shield- 6x Grandhammers5 x Judicators (140)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)Stormkeep Patrol (130)Stormkeep Patrol (130)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 193 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 How do you expect to do with that list? 2-3? Personally I don't see the value in liberator spam. You're obviously not going to kill anything and there are armies that can easily punch through 60 wounds of 3+rr1 in two turns through magic, shooting, combat, or some combination and then win on objectives in 3-4 rounds. I especially don't see the value in bringing 60 Libs... why not just bring 30 Liberators and some kind of hammer unit that can actually do damage? Your list is going to perform very poorly on some battleplans like Knife to the Heart (you can't claim a major victory here because you have no damage to push them off their objective) or Starstrike (your list relies on getting onto an objective quickly, which is not possible here) or Places of Arcane Power (few & weak leaders). If you know the battleplans ahead of this time may not be an issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 9:15 AM, PJetski said: Ballistae or Gunhaulers? Why not both? Stormkeep - Astral Templars Steam Tank with Commander - Staunch Defender, Mirror Shield Steam Tank with Commander Lord-Ordinator Knight-Azyros 3x5 Liberators 1x3 Gyrocopter 3x1 Grundstok Gunhauler 4x1 Celestar Ballista 1980/2000 15 units (3 COS), 390/400 ally points Wanna get me some Steam Tanks but imma wait till the FAQ to see if they fix that COS General rule. I know its correct written as intended, but if they "fixed" gargants being able to walk over endless spells, they can really ****** us bad here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, PJetski said: How do you expect to do with that list? 2-3? Personally I don't see the value in liberator spam. You're obviously not going to kill anything and there are armies that can easily punch through 60 wounds of 3+rr1 in two turns through magic, shooting, combat, or some combination and then win on objectives in 3-4 rounds. I especially don't see the value in bringing 60 Libs... why not just bring 30 Liberators and some kind of hammer unit that can actually do damage? Your list is going to perform very poorly on some battleplans like Knife to the Heart (you can't claim a major victory here because you have no damage to push them off their objective) or Starstrike (your list relies on getting onto an objective quickly, which is not possible here) or Places of Arcane Power (few & weak leaders). If you know the battleplans ahead of this time may not be an issue. I expect it to do... ok-ish? like 2-3 / 3-2 ? honestly, I think the list and strategy are not good but I keep being told that SCE should chin up and bear it cause they got such a great boost with Broken Realms, so I want to give it my honest try in an actual tournament (so far I just tested in random gameswith mixed results). I am only playing 3-games tournaments on TTS these days and I went 2-1 twice with a Skyborne Slayers list based on the same gimmick (just it was one drop with 30 libs and 20 protectors and a single lord celestant) so I want to compare the two experiences. Agree with all your points on the battleplans. As for going for an hybrid list, yes, I think that's interesting but I have the feeling that unless you really want to go deep into liberators (or CoS units), the tradeoff for a stormkeep army is just bad -I'd rather keep the deepstrike. Plus, if you're not able to take first turn, you can't really use the patrol redeployment "aggressively" cause your liberators will not have the save buff (so why bother?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Marcvs said: I expect it to do... ok-ish? like 2-3 / 3-2 ? honestly, I think the list and strategy are not good but I keep being told that SCE should chin up and bear it cause they got such a great boost with Broken Realms, so I want to give it my honest try in an actual tournament (so far I just tested in random gameswith mixed results). I am only playing 3-games tournaments on TTS these days and I went 2-1 twice with a Skyborne Slayers list based on the same gimmick (just it was one drop with 30 libs and 20 protectors and a single lord celestant) so I want to compare the two experiences. Agree with all your points on the battleplans. As for going for an hybrid list, yes, I think that's interesting but I have the feeling that unless you really want to go deep into liberators (or CoS units), the tradeoff for a stormkeep army is just bad -I'd rather keep the deepstrike. Plus, if you're not able to take first turn, you can't really use the patrol redeployment "aggressively" cause your liberators will not have the save buff (so why bother?) I guess if you really wanna use stormkeep patrol, 30 libs wont even all get into combat really, much less kill anything.If you wanna keep your drops low and use the first turn, bring some Justicar units like Vanguard Raptors. Atleast you ll be able to knock off some key pieces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Like id play something like this with patrol? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer (Stormkeep)LeadersLord-Veritant (110)- General- Command Trait: Deathly Aura- Artefact: Mirrorshield- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Incantor (120)- Spell: Lightning BlastKnight-Azyros (100)Lord-Ordinator (140)Battleline5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Judicators (140)- Skybolt BowsUnits6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)3 x Aetherwings (40)1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- Allies1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- Allies1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- AlliesBattalionsStormkeep Patrol (130)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 390 / 400Wounds: 123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, jhamslam said: Like id play something like this with patrol? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer (Stormkeep)LeadersLord-Veritant (110)- General- Command Trait: Deathly Aura- Artefact: Mirrorshield- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Incantor (120)- Spell: Lightning BlastKnight-Azyros (100)Lord-Ordinator (140)Battleline5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Judicators (140)- Skybolt BowsUnits6 x Gryph-Hounds (120)9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)3 x Aetherwings (40)1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- Allies1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- Allies1 x Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Sky Cannon- AlliesBattalionsStormkeep Patrol (130)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 390 / 400Wounds: 123 yep someone played a similar list (patrol + 9 raptors) in one of the TTS events and went... 2-1 still, I don't see the interest of going stormkeep with this list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Marcvs said: yep someone played a similar list (patrol + 9 raptors) in one of the TTS events and went... 2-1 still, I don't see the interest of going stormkeep with this list Yeah ive found the deepstrike to be too useful in this shooting / ,magic meta. Ive considered two Stormkeep Lists - One that uses Wardens with a bunch of judicators to just put out all the firepower Another that uses patrol but puts 20 Sequitors in someones face, since theyre a redeemer unit. Also have actual killing power as opposed to libs Edited January 13, 2021 by jhamslam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, jhamslam said: Another that uses patrol but puts 20 Sequitors in someones face, since theyre a redeemer unit. Also have actual killing power as opposed to libs Not sure about this in a Stormkeep, considering that the big maces for sequitors have only 1" range too (the small maces are now identical). If you compare 9 sequitors big maces with 6 libs big maces + 3 small the difference is like 10 vs 9 wounds to a 4+ save. In the meantime you have lost a +1 to save (and bravery), 10 bodies and 20 wounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Marcvs said: Not sure about this in a Stormkeep, considering that the big maces for sequitors have only 1" range too (the small maces are now identical). If you compare 9 sequitors big maces with 6 libs big maces + 3 small the difference is like 10 vs 9 wounds to a 4+ save. In the meantime you have lost a +1 to save (and bravery), 10 bodies and 20 wounds Its more the re rolls to hits that makes me consider em. But yeah you have a point. Stormkeeps seem unnecessarily restrictive in some ways. Like maybe stormhosts wouldve been too much but why cant COS units be affected by our spells, prayers and abilities like it is in Cities of Sigmar? Just weird 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Stormkeep/Scions split is an interesting concept. I look forward to seeing how they expand upon it in the 3rd edition battletome... though I know I will ultimately be disappointed yet again. I'm starting to think that the 2017 battletome with those wonky stormhost battalions and Aetherstrike was actually the best time to play Stormcast. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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