AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Twh30]

1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said:

As a Seraphon player who is now getting into Stormcast (building Anvils list) I think people should try out some Skinks. They are not battleline anymore but they do all the things you are looking for. 10 bodies, fast, and super high bravery.

The biggest thing is if you take multiple units and they get charged, one will die, but then you activate and get to remove an entire unit of combat. I plan on using some in my army.

Do people have good reasons for not using them? I plan on bringing a 20 man unit of Sequitors and some skins to be my defense against charges.

I am running this list with skinks and heartrenders

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

The problem I see with any Gavriel list is that it spends too many points on melee units + Gavriel + CP, Sequitors are a surprisingly bad unit (I have explained why I feel this way many times in this thread - check my post history), and there are better delivery mechanisms for Evocators that don't lock you into a terrible Stormhost. Immortal Stardrake lists look good on paper but the Stardrake doesn't do enough damage to justify its cost without Smoldering Helm but losing the protection of Ignax's Scales means you almost auto-lose to many lists that can push significant mortal wounds (like Skaven, Stormcast, or Hermdar). 

I think the top 3 are Astral Templars (10-15 Evo + 4 Ballista), Anvilstrike (10 Evo + 9 LS), Celestial Vindicators (6 Dracoline + 4 Ballista). It's hard to rank them because they all have stronger and weaker matchups.

Do you think there are instances where Celestial Vindicators Dracoline list has an edge over Anvils of Heldenhammer shooty list?

Large unit of dracolines supported by Celestial Vindicators command ability(and Lord Arcanum on Dracoline's command ability in some cases) and ballistas is indeed devastating in my experience. 

However the gristlegore FEC completely counters such expensive unit, and I doubt I would favour it over Anvils Raptor list in competitive scenes.

The diminishing accuracy of ballistas, especially without pricey Lord-Ordinator, against enemy Heroes with Look Out Sir bonus is another reason why I prefer Anvils list over the dracoline list.

That being said, heroes mounted on massive war machines and boasting more than 10 wounds benefiting from Look Out Sir always leaves me puzzled. For example, hag queens on Cauldron of Blood and grey seers on the bell.

But that is another issue to be discussed.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[schwabbele]

33 minutes ago, fwlr said:

Edit- I just remembered I wanted to ask- how do I make the ballistas more accurate? Ordinator obviously, but I head people here having them hit on 2+s. Just can't remember how.

Cheers

 

I only know of the celestial hurricanum which gives +1 to hit additionally to the Lord O.

 

 

[yarrickson]

Astral templars for the +1 to hit monsters. But that's a whole change of storm host. 

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

Do you think there are instances where Celestial Vindicators Dracoline list has an edge over Anvils of Heldenhammer shooty list?

Large unit of dracolines supported by Celestial Vindicators command ability(and Lord Arcanum on Dracoline's command ability in some cases) and ballistas is indeed devastating in my experience. 

However the gristlegore FEC completely counters such expensive unit, and I doubt I would favour it over Anvils Raptor list in competitive scenes.

The diminishing accuracy of ballistas, especially without pricey Lord-Ordinator, against enemy Heroes with Look Out Sir bonus is another reason why I prefer Anvils list over the dracoline list.

That being said, heroes mounted on massive war machines and boasting more than 10 wounds benefiting from Look Out Sir always leaves me puzzled. For example, hag queens on Cauldron of Blood and grey seers on the bell.

But that is another issue to be discussed.

I think the Dracoline list is good enough to be considered alongside Anvilstrike, but it has some problems.

Armies that fight first (Gristlegore, Hermdar, Khorne?, Idoneth) are a problem for it, especially if they have something like a Gristlegore general with Ethereal Amulet. Ballistas should be shooting at big targets with the rapid fire and foot heroes with the single shot to increase accuracy.

Running Astral Templars instead of Celestial Vindicators is a viable alternative - the ballista drop gets really nasty, but you lose that sweet command ability for bonus attacks.

Astral Templar Dracoths is also a good choice against Gristlegore. A bunch of breath attacks on 3+rr1 can really mess up the terrorgheist, freeing you up to fight something else in the combat phase.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PJetski

[PrimeElectrid]

Do people think the value of the Celestant Prime is going up? Sure it’s an expensive piece, but it can hide in the sky away from those “can’t fight” units, and drop 3 auto MWs onto them.

[jhamslam]

5 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Do people think the value of the Celestant Prime is going up? Sure it’s an expensive piece, but it can hide in the sky away from those “can’t fight” units, and drop 3 auto MWs onto them.

Not good. Too pricey for just 8 wounds and no Mortal Wound Protection. itll just die to some mw spam. Best wait till it gets a 5+ FNP like everything else or gets a major point reduction otherwise just  use it for friendly games 

Edited May 22, 2019 by jhamslam

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

10 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Do people think the value of the Celestant Prime is going up? Sure it’s an expensive piece, but it can hide in the sky away from those “can’t fight” units, and drop 3 auto MWs onto them.

The ability to turn a single charge roll, or the d6" range for cometstrike sceptre, and the number of mortal wounds dealt by the comet to your choice is a powerful ability. 

However, the Celestant-Prime still suffers from his fragility, high points cost and abundance of monsters with ethereal amulet.

For quick comparison,  gristlegore ghoul king on terrorgheist is only 60pts more expensive than him, and a verminlord is 80pts cheaper than him.

If his points cost drops to below 300, he would become more competitive.

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[ChaosLord]

Celestant-Prime is really cool, but what is it, 340 points? That cost seems rather high. I'm not sure what would be fair, maybe 280?

Orrery of Celestial Fates is a cool ability.

[jake3991]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

I think the Dracoline list is good enough to be considered alongside Anvilstrike, but it has some problems.

Armies that fight first (Gristlegore, Hermdar, Khorne?, Idoneth) are a problem for it, especially if they have something like a Gristlegore general with Ethereal Amulet. Ballistas should be shooting at big targets with the rapid fire and foot heroes with the single shot to increase accuracy.

Running Astral Templars instead of Celestial Vindicators is a viable alternative - the ballista drop gets really nasty, but you lose that sweet command ability for bonus attacks.

Astral Templar Dracoths is also a good choice against Gristlegore. A bunch of breath attacks on 3+rr1 can really mess up the terrorgheist, freeing you up to fight something else in the combat phase.

I've been running dracolines and find that anvils command ability is great as I can use it to fight in the hero phase, thus bypassing any issues with always fight first.  

[ChaosLord]

4 minutes ago, jake3991 said:

I've been running dracolines and find that anvils command ability is great as I can use it to fight in the hero phase, thus bypassing any issues with always fight first.  

Mind posting a list?

[kuroyume]

Need help on a 2000 point list for a 3 month escalation league I'm joining. I have the lists for the first two months (1000 and 1500 points) more or less figured out through trial and error against local players, but it's hard ot find pick up games for 2000, so I'm a bit conflicted on what to carry. Normally I would leave it for later, but there are painting requirements so it helps to know in advance roughly what I'll need to get painted.

with that said, this is the core of any list I would like to run:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail 
- Artefact: God-forged Blade 
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Lord-Castellant (100)
Gavriel Sureheart (100)

Battleline
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Units
15 x Evocators (600)

Total: 1440 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 11
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
 

That leaves me with quite a few points and two battlelines to fill. At the lower points levels I'm running Judicators as my second battleline, but at this level I'm wondering if I couldn't do better with 2 units of Liberators and an extra 120 points to spend).  I'm also at a loss as to what to use the remainder of my points. Add some cavalry? (I have 4 Dracothian Guards with magnetized weapons) more/any shooting? (I have a unit of longstrikes, 2 of bow judicators and a ballista) more heroes (maybe a priest for Translocation?).

Right now I'm looking at running this, but any suggestions are welcome, if only to get the gears turning in my head.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail 
- Artefact: God-forged Blade 
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Lord-Castellant (100)
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)

Battleline
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows

Units
15 x Evocators (600)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135
 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by kuroyume

[jake3991]

22 minutes ago, ChaosLord said:

Mind posting a list?

Here it is! Still ironing things out/optimizing, but this is the current iteration.  

Anvils of the heldenhammer:

Arcanum

Heraldor

Castellant

20 sequitors

5 sequitors

5 sequitors

6 longstrikes

6 evos on dracolines 

shackles

[crkhobbit]

I've been having good results Anvils with:
Arc on foot
Heraldor
Vexillor
Castellant
Libs*5
Seq*5
Seq*10
Dracolines*6
ordinator+3*ballistae

I think this is the exact same as Nathan Princi's list?  10 sequitors seem to be enough when you're hitting hard enough with the dracolines and ballistae.  Honestly, the sequitors haven't been doing much because they don't need to.  Often just sitting on an objective and not getting to attack.

Target selection is super important (not that it ever isn't).

Ideally, ballistas drop in and take out a problem.  Then Dracs run+charge to get an alpha on something.  Hopefully positioning so that enemy pile-ins are awkward at best.  They're not super tough, so you still need to be careful with them.  If they survive the turn, Anvils CA (if you can have something in range) them to clear whatever they're engaged with so they can charge again.

In the games I've played, Castellant and Vexillor have done almost nothing.  I keep imagining the vexillor teleport winning a game, but it just hasn't come up.  So they're currently on the chopping block.  Moving back to a 20 block of Sequitors makes me want the Castellant back.  But kinda thinking he's just an unnecessary tax.  A win-more, if you will, because the list isn't relying on the sequitors to never die. (and because the things that kill 20 sequitors still do-so even with a +1sv).  Instead, the list is relying on the ballistae and the dracolines to put enough pressure on the opponent that the sequitors aren't really a focus.

Next iteration I'll be using is:
LAoGC
Heraldor
Ordinator+3*ballistae
libs*5
seq*5
seq*20
evo on d*6
 

[jake3991]

45 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:

I've been having good results Anvils with:
Arc on foot
Heraldor
Vexillor
Castellant
Libs*5
Seq*5
Seq*10
Dracolines*6
ordinator+3*ballistae

I think this is the exact same as Nathan Princi's list?  10 sequitors seem to be enough when you're hitting hard enough with the dracolines and ballistae.  Honestly, the sequitors haven't been doing much because they don't need to.  Often just sitting on an objective and not getting to attack.

Target selection is super important (not that it ever isn't).

Ideally, ballistas drop in and take out a problem.  Then Dracs run+charge to get an alpha on something.  Hopefully positioning so that enemy pile-ins are awkward at best.  They're not super tough, so you still need to be careful with them.  If they survive the turn, Anvils CA (if you can have something in range) them to clear whatever they're engaged with so they can charge again.

In the games I've played, Castellant and Vexillor have done almost nothing.  I keep imagining the vexillor teleport winning a game, but it just hasn't come up.  So they're currently on the chopping block.  Moving back to a 20 block of Sequitors makes me want the Castellant back.  But kinda thinking he's just an unnecessary tax.  A win-more, if you will, because the list isn't relying on the sequitors to never die. (and because the things that kill 20 sequitors still do-so even with a +1sv).  Instead, the list is relying on the ballistae and the dracolines to put enough pressure on the opponent that the sequitors aren't really a focus.

Next iteration I'll be using is:
LAoGC
Heraldor
Ordinator+3*ballistae
libs*5
seq*5
seq*20
evo on d*6
 

I tested out exactly what you just posted (both lists actually) and found a couple things.  As for the first list I just felt underwhelmed by the serious lack of models. the second list with a block of 20 sequitors gave me the anvil unit I was looking for.  My big experiment was using the ballistas, I've never been a fan of high variance damage and found that it was simply unreliable in a pinch, thats why I went for the long strikes.

Just figured I'd give you my experience with what you're doing! 

[ledha]

8 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Do people have good reasons for not using them? I plan on bringing a 20 man unit of Sequitors and some skins to be my defense against charges.

I didn't choose to play an army of heroics dudes in superb and massive heavy armor to field a bunch of frail and naked lizardmen using hit and run tactics while attacking with stone age weapons

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

I didn't choose to play an army of heroics dudes in superb and massive heavy armor to field a bunch of frail and naked lizardmen using hit and run tactics while attacking with stone age weapons

Similarly, I generally do not like using allies. I realise we just had a conversation about restricting one’s self. But I prefer to try to create a winning army with the tools from just the SCE box.

 I agree that skinks fill a void in our book however.

[schwabbele]

7 hours ago, jake3991 said:

I tested out exactly what you just posted (both lists actually)

How did you test the lists so fast? 

 

9 hours ago, kuroyume said:

Right now I'm looking at running this, but any suggestions are welcome, if only to get the gears turning in my head.

Make room for at least 1 additional CP, you don’t wanna drop those evos and get caught pants down rolling a <6  so switch 1 Judi to Libs i guess, better 2 , then you can reroll in case of 1,1 or have 1 CP left to avoid BS if necessary.

[jake3991]

8 hours ago, schwabbele said:

How did you test the lists so fast? 

My weekly game group!

 

[crkhobbit]

Agree that Skinks do something that's not in our book.  And they're a great points-per-wound cost.  But I don't think we really need them.  If they could be our battleline, I'd take them.  But as an extra battleline-like unit in addition to the battleline we already have to take, I think they just dilute the list.

I hate the variance on ballistae, too.  But Longstrikes are just so fragile.  And so expensive.  Having a hard time justifying spending the points (and the $).  They also have less damage potential.

And the Longstrikes share a wound pool.  12 damage would wipe out the whole unit.  12 damage to a ballista kills one ballista; and you still have 2 more and an ordinator.  And for that reason, they can drop in anywhere on the board without needing to be bubble wrapped.  I've even dropped them in front of my sequitors (when the situation called for it) so the opponent has to charge the ballistae and split up their attacks, leaving my sequitors available to move and/or pick targets.  It's real satisfying when they just do 6 damage to a ballista, effectively doing nothing.  6 damage to a unit of Longstrikes is 180 points dead, and a battleshock test.

As far as wanting more bodies on the board, Longstrikes are the opposite of that.  18 wounds for 540 points, to do an average of ~10 damage per volley against a 4+ save.  And that's not counting what you want in support - 100-120 points for a teleport, and 100-150 points in birds.

If you get a good position, and if you get to alpha with the Longstrikes with Anvils CA, they're going to do some great damage.  But that's two big ifs for the amount of points you need to spend.  Seems like a win-more unit to me.  If things go your way, they're awesome.  If things don't go your way, you're forfeiting a huge chunk of your army.

[HammerOfSigmar]

From my opinion, the key for using longstrike is never let your opponent have a chance to charge it, you can relocate them when really necessary, SCE have many heros can do that, priest, lord-aquilor, vexillor.

[jake3991]

9 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

From my opinion, the key for using longstrike is never let your opponent have a chance to charge it, you can relocate them when really necessary, SCE have many heros can do that, priest, lord-aquilor, vexillor.

Agreed, its also pretty easy to keep them out of combat or away from enemy shooting given their 30'' range.  I find that 6 at 360 points (compared to 3 ballistas and a hero for 440) is a steal as they reliably do damage, sure it doesn't have the upside of the ballista, but it also doesn't have the downside and isn't 4 drops including the ordinator.  I think I've just been repeatedly let down by the ballistas and long strike raptors always do what I'm expecting them to.  

[Requizen]

26 minutes ago, jake3991 said:

Agreed, its also pretty easy to keep them out of combat or away from enemy shooting given their 30'' range.  I find that 6 at 360 points (compared to 3 ballistas and a hero for 440) is a steal as they reliably do damage, sure it doesn't have the upside of the ballista, but it also doesn't have the downside and isn't 4 drops including the ordinator.  I think I've just been repeatedly let down by the ballistas and long strike raptors always do what I'm expecting them to.  

30" is not as safe as you might think when there's plenty of things that can move 18+" and still charge, or teleport and charge with rerolls, or charge with +multiple inches. The game is extremely fast right now, and even if you park at max range, you're not really as safe as you might think.

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, jake3991 said:

My weekly game group!

 

Sorry i got the postings wrong, i was like how did he test 2 lists in 1 hour 😝

[frostfire]

33 minutes ago, Requizen said:

30" is not as safe as you might think when there's plenty of things that can move 18+" and still charge, or teleport and charge with rerolls, or charge with +multiple inches. The game is extremely fast right now, and even if you park at max range, you're not really as safe as you might think.

So that's why I think aetherwings are needed.