DanielFM Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 8 hours ago, JackStreicher said: 1D6 Hits per hit is Never poor, especially with rend -2. the 18“ are never an issue just screen them, lean back and keep oneshotting. the lord ordinator is fine for the immense buff he provides for artillery heavy lists. He should be renamed into rallynator though. the 40pts ‚overpricing‘ Split by 3 ballistas makes a ballista 113 pts which is still WAY too cheap. It‘s too much firepower for too few points. using the ordinator on 3 ballistas would make each score 2 hits at 18“ which would result 3*7 = 21* 4/6 = 14 wounds at -2 so don‘t even try to defend this undercosting. 2 Ballistas with Ordinator (340 points) do 7.77 wounds Vs 4+ on average. 2 units of 5 Judicators (320 points) do 5.9 wounds on average. So the slightly more expensive option is a bit stronger. But it has less range and it's not battleline. I can't see how Celestar Ballistas deserve to be 40 points more in the light of these numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DanielFM said: 2 Ballistas with Ordinator (340 points) do 7.77 wounds Vs 4+ on average. 2 units of 5 Judicators (320 points) do 5.9 wounds on average. So the slightly more expensive option is a bit stronger. But it has less range and it's not battleline. I can't see how Celestar Ballistas deserve to be 40 points more in the light of these numbers. The ballista is harder to kill off, and don't drop damage like the judicators (who are still very good in this area). Kill 3 judicators, you made the unit less efficient. Make 6 wound to the ballista, it doesn't care Edited August 12, 2018 by ledha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, DanielFM said: 2 Ballistas with Ordinator (340 points) do 7.77 wounds Vs 4+ on average. 2 units of 5 Judicators (320 points) do 5.9 wounds on average. So the slightly more expensive option is a bit stronger. But it has less range and it's not battleline. I can't see how Celestar Ballistas deserve to be 40 points more in the light of these numbers. The difference grows bigger once you take 3 ballistas. plus the deepstriking removes the whole argument of „only 18“ range“ Edited August 12, 2018 by JackStreicher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, ledha said: The ballista is harder to kill off, and don't drop damage like the judicators (who are still very good in this area). Kill 3 judicators, you made the unit less efficient. Make 6 wound to the ballista, it doesn't care Do 7 wounds to the Judicators, you made the unit less efficient. Do 7 wounds to the Ballista and it's gone But I see your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Freejack02 said: Do you mean it shreds one unit of 20 models? Have you even done the math? Where on earth are you getting these numbers? The ballista is effective for it's points, but it does not need a large price increase. The comparison to Judicators isn't genuine - you need to factor in the cost of battleline tag, more range, more wounds, and being 5 models vs 1 for the purpose of capturing/holding objectives. Simple math. ~ 11.xy dmg + battleshock ~ 20 models gone. at 3 ballistas + Ordinator they deal >50% more damage than judicators vs a 4+ save. this feels just like the Aethervoid discussion... facts win not the gut feel. same goes for Sequitors which are a medium to high tier elite unit with the price of a low-tier elite unit which can also be taken as battleline. Another point to keep in mind: statistical results usually get to their average result across numerous values. Which means: the more dice you roll the more average it gets with usual spikes up and down. It isn‘t that unlikely to see one ballista hit 3 shots with 13+ hits of which 10 will do dmg, by just one ballista. ofc there is the other case - I failed to ever hit with mine 2 turns in a row, but whatever it‘s only 100 points so I‘ll buy 2 more. (Once you can even think like that you know it‘s too cheap for what it does, since there doesn‘t Seem to be a better option) Edited August 12, 2018 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadanga Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) I played a game this week using a ballistabomb (deepstriking 4x ballistas and an ordinator). IF you can get in within 18" they are really scary, but it takes your opponent exactly one turn to react to this, and then you are stuck taking pot-shots at 36" because they are sloooooooooooooooooooooooow, and running aint really an option since then you are just wasting away. Any decent opponent will easily screen you and limit you to bad targets, and with how the new rules for Sylvaneth wyldswoods works, just forget about it. I would bring 1-2 max, but I don't plan to bring any anytime soon. Edit: That deepstrike is 540 points btw. So, is it scarier than 4x Fulminators? Edited August 12, 2018 by Kadanga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Thoughts? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar LEADERS Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240) - General - Command Trait : We Cannot Fail - Artefact : God-forged Blade - Spell : Lighntning Blast - Mount Trait : Wind Runner Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact : Mirrorshield UNITS 5 x Evocators (200) 5 x Evocators (200) 20 x Sequitors (400) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields 20 x Sequitors (400) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields 10 x Sequitors (240) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields BATTALIONS Cleansing Phalanx (120) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 148 LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400 Does his gryphound count as a drop for reserve purposes??? cause that would be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Kuma said: Thoughts? Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar LEADERS Gavriel Sureheart (100) Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240) - General - Command Trait : We Cannot Fail - Artefact : God-forged Blade - Spell : Lighntning Blast - Mount Trait : Wind Runner Lord-Castellant (100) - Artefact : Mirrorshield UNITS 5 x Evocators (200) 5 x Evocators (200) 20 x Sequitors (400) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields 20 x Sequitors (400) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields 10 x Sequitors (240) -Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields BATTALIONS Cleansing Phalanx (120) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 148 LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400 Does his gryphound count as a drop for reserve purposes??? cause that would be amazing. It does count as a drop. I like the simplicity of your list. Gav+ a unit of evos and a unit of seqs for a strike and to mire your opponent in their own territory, the rest to be immovable objective owners. Going to be dang hard for your opponent to fight through all those wounds. I do wonder if just the Gav bomb is worth taking Hammers, or if This is a list that would benefit more from staunch defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 6 hours ago, JackStreicher said: Simple math. ~ 11.xy dmg + battleshock ~ 20 models gone. at 3 ballistas + Ordinator they deal >50% more damage than judicators vs a 4+ save. You should pay more attention to what you say - here is the exact quote I was responding to: "A single ballista is better than 5 judicators which cost 160 pts. Combined with a Lord Ordinator those things shred one unit of 20 every turn." You did not mention 3 ballistas anywhere, you said a SINGLE ballista - which is why I questioned your math. Now that the goalposts have moved, it makes a little more sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Richelieu said: It does count as a drop. I like the simplicity of your list. Gav+ a unit of evos and a unit of seqs for a strike and to mire your opponent in their own territory, the rest to be immovable objective owners. Going to be dang hard for your opponent to fight through all those wounds. I do wonder if just the Gav bomb is worth taking Hammers, or if This is a list that would benefit more from staunch defender. Thanks, exactly what I was thinking. I like the HOS for the possibility of a 5+ to get one of the sequitor units back. Realistically you only need the +6 to charge (MOST TIMEs) so you would have the command points to spare for the rest of the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLV Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Should evocators always be armed with grand stave or a mix ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 45 minutes ago, LLV said: Should evocators always be armed with grand stave or a mix ? Staves are better - more range and better damage the vast majority of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 3 hours ago, LLV said: Should evocators always be armed with grand stave or a mix ? Pure performance? Staves are better against more targets. Most of the time, a mixed unit will perform nearly as good as a pure staves one, but look more interesting (imho) and benefit from the increased range (first rank doesn't need range 2" anyway). That's what I would take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphanism Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) About to build my second box of Sequitors for my list built around Solbright and the Cleansins Phalanx. Swords or maces? I feel like, with all the rerolls I'm getting to hit and wounds, the extra sword attack might be more helpful, but Im curious what everyone else is building. Edited August 13, 2018 by Euphanism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexalopolis Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 48 minutes ago, Euphanism said: About to build my second box of Sequitors for my list built around Solbright and the Cleansins Phalanx. Swords or maces? I feel like, with all the rerolls I'm getting to hit and wounds, the extra sword attack might be more helpful, but Im curious what everyone else is building. Some quick math on druchii.net says they're about even in a full unit, with empower the extra attacks from the blades pull ahead a bit. Personally I would favor more attacks and the look of the swords, but the maces are always going to be easier to find because of the starter set. It's a shame the Redemption Cache doesn't seem very useful though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphanism Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lexalopolis said: Some quick math on druchii.net says they're about even in a full unit, with empower the extra attacks from the blades pull ahead a bit. Personally I would favor more attacks and the look of the swords, but the maces are always going to be easier to find because of the starter set. It's a shame the Redemption Cache doesn't seem very useful though. The Cache is pretty neat when you know what you're going up against, but where I play is 90% Order armies so I'd rarely take it. Too bad because I love the build of that model. I like the aesthetic of the swords more anyway (and my first unit is all maces) so swords it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 On 8/12/2018 at 1:47 AM, Ben said: Is anyone playing lists using only the new chamber? Not exclusively. Dominated by but not exclusive. (My 2000 I'm painting toward has 10 Judicators and a Heraldor, and I'm also going to experiment with Celestant-Prime and a couple other Heroes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlanceOnASix Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 First of all this book is amazing. I've been having a lot of success so far in my practice games, going to an event this weekend with 2 similar lists. Wanted to get your guys thoughts on which to take, and the spell/artifacts to select. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Astreia Solbright (Not sure what spell) (This is the new thought. I lose the general trait. But her command ability is better than the Griff Charger and I feel better than the Dracoline wizard... But should I just be saving command points anyway for the 5+ bring sequitors back after turn 1) Knight Vexillor (Teleport Banner) (He gets the artifact Sword) Lord-Castellant Gavriel Sureheart 20xSeq 5xSeq 5xSeq 10 Evocators (Staffs) (Reroll Charge Spell) 3 Evocator Draconlines (+1 Wound Spell) 1880 (2 Command Points) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Astreia Solbright (Not sure what spell) Knight Vexillor (Teleport Banner) (He gets the artifact Sword) Lord-Castellant (He gets some other artifact I'm not sure what would be good yet.) Gavriel Sureheart 20xSeq 5xSeq 5xSeq 10 Evocators (Staffs) (Reroll Charge Spell) 5 Evocators (Staffs) (+1 Wound Spell) Cleansing Phalanx 1900 (3 Command Points) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hoping to get some input as I'm having a hard time between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Blade Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, GlanceOnASix said: First of all this book is amazing. I've been having a lot of success so far in my practice games, going to an event this weekend with 2 similar lists. Wanted to get your guys thoughts on which to take, and the spell/artifacts to select. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Astreia Solbright (Not sure what spell) (This is the new thought. I lose the general trait. But her command ability is better than the Griff Charger and I feel better than the Dracoline wizard... But should I just be saving command points anyway for the 5+ bring sequitors back after turn 1) Knight Vexillor (Teleport Banner) (He gets the artifact Sword) Lord-Castellant Gavriel Sureheart 20xSeq 5xSeq 5xSeq 10 Evocators (Staffs) (Reroll Charge Spell) 3 Evocator Draconlines (+1 Wound Spell) 1880 (2 Command Points) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Astreia Solbright (Not sure what spell) Knight Vexillor (Teleport Banner) (He gets the artifact Sword) Lord-Castellant (He gets some other artifact I'm not sure what would be good yet.) Gavriel Sureheart 20xSeq 5xSeq 5xSeq 10 Evocators (Staffs) (Reroll Charge Spell) 5 Evocators (Staffs) (+1 Wound Spell) Cleansing Phalanx 1900 (3 Command Points) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hoping to get some input as I'm having a hard time between the two. Personally I think it's too gimmicky, but you're fielding the strongest units to come out of this new book and my Evocators on foot rarely fail to delete whoever they get into combat with (I play celestial Vindicators so they're a little more blendy). I like to play in all phases even in the less powerful than before shooting phase. Good luck though I hope you get that 5+ more often than is statistically likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayerOfGames Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, GlanceOnASix said: First of all this book is amazing. Well, when I picked up the new Battletome several weeks ago, I gave it a cursory glance and was so frustrated that I put it aside for the time being: - Battalions castrated: removed the good rules and kept the crappy rule for a slight reduction in points. Best Battalion only uses new models (Cleansing Phalanx of course) - Stormhosts: either ******, or forces you to take more or less crappy General trait and Artifact - Support ranges: a lot got changed from "within X" " to "completely within X" " - Almost none of the changes I was hoping for came along - Soul Wars box with sub-strength units (again!). They could at least have made it such that you end up with full-strength units when you also buy the Tempest of Souls box ... well, at least you get some Greatmaces... Only a few days ago I picked it up again and started to see the positive changes more and more... Regarding the missing balance between Sequitors and Liberators - it would have been incredibly easy to do it right, I think: - Exchange the weapon profiles Stormsmite Maul <-> Warhammer and Tempest Blade <-> Warblade - Change Liberator max unit size to 20 for 340 (without the old Vanguard Wing, no one will take 30 Libs over 20 Sequitors with all those Greatmaces for 520 vs. 400 pts) - limit Greatmaces to 2 per 5 models (one of those 2 can be carried by Sequitor Prime), would also fit the contents of the Sequitor box ... So you have the choice: cheaper unit with better base weapon vs. more expensive unit with more special weapons and fancier rules With these changes (and the changes in support ranges, especially Celestant on foot) they could even have kept the teleport rule for Vanguard Wing (maybe make them reappear more than 5" from enemy units). Well, "could", "would" ... didn't happen! So let us make the best of what we got, we have to live with it for some time now!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Blade Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said: Well, when I picked up the new Battletome several weeks ago, I gave it a cursory glance and was so frustrated that I put it aside for the time being: - Battalions castrated: removed the good rules and kept the crappy rule for a slight reduction in points. Best Battalion only uses new models (Cleansing Phalanx of course) - Stormhosts: either ******, or forces you to take more or less crappy General trait and Artifact - Support ranges: a lot got changed from "within X" " to "completely within X" " - Almost none of the changes I was hoping for came along - Soul Wars box with sub-strength units (again!). They could at least have made it such that you end up with full-strength units when you also buy the Tempest of Souls box ... well, at least you get some Greatmaces... Only a few days ago I picked it up again and started to see the positive changes more and more... Regarding the missing balance between Sequitors and Liberators - it would have been incredibly easy to do it right, I think: - Exchange the weapon profiles Stormsmite Maul <-> Warhammer and Tempest Blade <-> Warblade - Change Liberator max unit size to 20 for 340 (without the old Vanguard Wing, no one will take 30 Libs over 20 Sequitors with all those Greatmaces for 520 vs. 400 pts) - limit Greatmaces to 2 per 5 models (one of those 2 can be carried by Sequitor Prime), would also fit the contents of the Sequitor box ... So you have the choice: cheaper unit with better base weapon vs. more expensive unit with more special weapons and fancier rules With these changes (and the changes in support ranges, especially Celestant on foot) they could even have kept the teleport rule for Vanguard Wing (maybe make them reappear more than 5" from enemy units). Well, "could", "would" ... didn't happen! So let us make the best of what we got, we have to live with it for some time now!? What is the point in switching their weapon profiles between mauls and swords? I prefer the sword look and think it makes sense they could make more attacks with the sword but harder to wound. Edit: never mind I understand you were speaking of liberators having the profiles of sequitors. My mistake. Edited August 13, 2018 by Black Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Question regarding shooting and a few warscroll "abilities". You can only shoot at the units you are in combat with with "missile weapons". However, what about these ranged attacks that happen in the shooting phase? 1. Celestant-Prime's cometstrike scepter. (seems that you pick a point in 24", regardless of combat) 2. Lord Celestant on Dracoth - lightning breath. (same as prime above, except 12" range) 3. Lord Celestant - D6 attacks in the shooting phase. (same as prime, except 16" and you can pick any units at will) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 24 minutes ago, Mark Williams said: Question regarding shooting and a few warscroll "abilities". You can only shoot at the units you are in combat with with "missile weapons". However, what about these ranged attacks that happen in the shooting phase? 1. Celestant-Prime's cometstrike scepter. (seems that you pick a point in 24", regardless of combat) 2. Lord Celestant on Dracoth - lightning breath. (same as prime above, except 12" range) 3. Lord Celestant - D6 attacks in the shooting phase. (same as prime, except 16" and you can pick any units at will) None of those are shooting attacks, they are all abilities. You can run and still use them and they're not restricted when you're in combat, nor effected by Lookout Sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Richelieu said: None of those are shooting attacks, they are all abilities. You can run and still use them and they're not restricted when you're in combat, nor effected by Lookout Sir! What, you can run and use them? That’s news to me. :O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Mark Williams said: What, you can run and use them? That’s news to me. :O Yes - if it's not a shooting attack (aka does not have a ranged weapon profile on the warscroll), then it's not restricted by running/retreating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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